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Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

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Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What if...? said:
All.else adide where the **** is the kicking part in the evidence?

You say kicking in every single description.

Where is this kicking of which you speak?

If yer gonna chide folks for expanding on the evidence, please don't do so yourself.
Click to expand...

You apparently cannot grasp the difference between you presenting what you see as the prosecution's case and what is the defense. The prosecution MUST prove what happened. The defense can just show what may have happened. So if Martin MAY have been kicking Zimmerman, that is a defense.

Florida law not ONLY requires proving guilt beyond reasonable doubt, but ALSO "to the exclusion of all other possibilities." That's why Florida defense lawyers were confident Casey Anthony would walk free, where in few other states she wouldn't. ANY POSSIBLE scenario, proven to have happened or not, is a defense merely because the evidence does not prove it didn't happen.

I mention "kicking" because the only eye witness said it was "a fight" but only Zimmerman on the ground, and Zimmerman had head wounds on the front and the back of his head. Is it POSSIBLE Martin was kicking Zimmerman? That's all the Defense has to show to argue that.

Without an eye witness to the murder itself - fully (the teenage witness said he couldn't see everything or anything about how the fight started) - murder convictions are extremely difficult in Florida for that reason. The jury MUST consider EVERYTHING that even MAY have happened. And if even one thing could have happened for which it was legal for Zimmerman to shoot, he's "not guilty."

So for those of you raging Zimmerman is "guilty" in a legal sense, all proof duties are 100% yours. Us saying "no so fast, this matter isn't that easy" only have to show what possibly happened.

The Florida Supreme Court and Bar Association are working on changing that.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

VanceMack said:
Unless Zimmerman fesses up to something I doubt we will ever know...nor do we really have to. It is enough to know who is responsible for the altercation...and at every step of the way, it is the overzealous neighborhood watchman carrying a firearm following a kid for nothing more than walking.
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No its not. Its who threw the first blow because that is who made this a criminal event. Until then its just nothing in terms of criminal law.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
No its not. Its who threw the first blow because that is who made this a criminal event. Until then its just nothing in terms of criminal law.
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Thats what they call in the business an 'opinion'. In a legal case, I am betting you would find a solid basis for charging the instigator. Not for 'murder'...I dont think that was his intent. But he is absolutely guilty of creating a deadly environment. This isnt two strangers passing in the night. It is a responsible agent...the neighborhood watchman...creating a deadly scenario.

You mention the blow...think about that for a second. What do you really 'know'? All ANY of us know is that kid KNEW he was being followed by someone for no good reason. He walked faster to avoid the guy...the guy ran after him (PLEASE dont tell me you havent heard the audio...the guys heavy breathing...the ****ing coons comment...and the they always get away comment). I'm not Karnack the Great...but I can see the scenario. Copwannabe is on a 'mission'...gets confronted by the innocent kid he has been stalking....the hunter became the hunted then...oh ****...kid knocked him down. He scrambled for his gun and fired because he panicked because the situation he just caused blew up right in his face.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
No its not. Its who threw the first blow because that is who made this a criminal event. Until then its just nothing in terms of criminal law.
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Do you seriously not see the threat that a person who follows innocent people down the street and then ends up killing them is to society?
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
The standard in Florida is stricter than that. It also adds to the exclusion of any other possibility.
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So you say. But you have been wrong quite a bit lately. Could you provide a cite for this bit of info?

joko104 said:
Remember the Casey Anthony case?
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No. I don't. Who was he?
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
No its not. Its who threw the first blow because that is who made this a criminal event. Until then its just nothing in terms of criminal law.
Click to expand...

Martin had every right to throw the first punch, if Zimmerman got in his face after following him on foot & and his car.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
No, some people want Zimmerman immediately put in jail, not just tried.
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It's not uncommon for people who are charged with a crime to be put in jail. To be tried, you need to be charged with a crime.
:shrug:
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Most facts claimed so far are simply opinions. I particularly love the fellow watchman's defense of Zimmerman.
Frank Taaffe pointed out the circumstances that he believes led his 28-year-old neighbor to react the way he did on the night of Feb. 26: eight burglaries within 15 months, most done by young black males, he said.

"The stage was already set. It was a perfect storm," Taaffe said. "I think any time you use a weapon, there are certain anger issues working."
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Trayvon Martin's shooter defended by neighborhood watch captain

If the majority of the 8 burglaries were done by young black males, then they have all been caught, tried and convicted? And at least five of them were 'young black males'? I would be rolling on the floor over the absurdity of this claim, if its implication wasn't so tragically fraudulent and futile.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
No, some people want Zimmerman immediately put in jail, not just tried.
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yes, jail is where you put people who have been indicted for a crime and can't post bail or bail hasn't been set.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Excon said:
You said the above in reply to joko104.
It does not matter what the "people" want if his actions do not raise to the level of criminality.
He shouldn't be charged and tried unless they do.
When there is no act by the individual that raises to the level of criminality, then yeah.
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Iirc, there're people who face trial who are innocent. The criminality of the case determined by the court in some cases.
I was unaware that we determine someone has committed crime before we even give them a trial.

...something new everyday

Excon said:
Characterizing someone who leaves their truck to keep someone under observation as "pursue someone who is fleeing" doesn't change it to a criminal matter.
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so what? My point was that leaving the safety of your vehicle to pursue someone who is fleeing is different that defending oneself.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

VanceMack said:
Thats what they call in the business an 'opinion'. In a legal case, I am betting you would find a solid basis for charging the instigator. Not for 'murder'...I dont think that was his intent. But he is absolutely guilty of creating a deadly environment. This isnt two strangers passing in the night. It is a responsible agent...the neighborhood watchman...creating a deadly scenario.

You mention the blow...think about that for a second. What do you really 'know'? All ANY of us know is that kid KNEW he was being followed by someone for no good reason. He walked faster to avoid the guy...the guy ran after him (PLEASE dont tell me you havent heard the audio...the guys heavy breathing...the ****ing coons comment...and the they always get away comment). I'm not Karnack the Great...but I can see the scenario. Copwannabe is on a 'mission'...gets confronted by the innocent kid he has been stalking....the hunter became the hunted then...oh ****...kid knocked him down. He scrambled for his gun and fired because he panicked because the situation he just caused blew up right in his face.
Click to expand...

A lot of words, but they don't mean much. "Guilty of creating a deadly environment" and "deadly scenario." That statute isn't on the books in Florida. What state are you in?

Look, you can think Zimmerman is the scum of the earth, a true maniac, paranoid, bigoted, low intelligent wacko. But that doesn't make a winnable criminal case.

I like your phrase of "the hunted becomes the hunter." I think that is EXACTLY what happened.

Sooooo... we get to really is the few seconds fact-question of the entire case - and only Zimmerman the living witness that knows what that fact is - if in the panic even he does. In the few seconds of the fight, how did the gun get into that picture and, exactly, the "scrambling for the gun."

MAYBE forensics will give a strong indication (distance of the shot - and the angle of it.) Maybe a voice print can tell us who was shouting and shouting what? Or maybe only Karnak the Great can ever know. If the latter is what is true, it is a "not guilty." Just like innocent people get convicted sometimes, even more times guilty people go free simply for lack of sufficient evidence.

When I SEEMINGLY argue FOR Zimmerman, really I am arguing against some slogan, premise or overall concept I disagree with. And we disagree about neighborhood crime watch as an example.

But to get a conviction - I mean a legitimate one because I think this now soooo far into politics that may not be possible - requires certainties and absolutes.

We can't know what we can't know. We can't know what we aren't told. For example, did the police ask Ziimmerman to take a polygraph test? Did they do a drug test on Martin? Zimmerman? Were I the defense attorney for Zimmerman, I'd want him to refuse a polygraph. But I would DEMAND a hair sample - AND FAST - of Martin's hair hoping to find out if it indicated pot, cocaine, and certainty if it indicated meth. Etc. Do you think that would be relevant? If Martin showed meth usage - a drug that tends to make people feel like superman and of violent outbursts? Or pot, that can make some people paranoid?

I didn't write that to slam Martin, just some of the almost countless "tool" and "issues" and question marks the defense can raise - noting the defense doesn't have to prove anything, only raise question marks.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Simon W. Moon said:
Iirc, there're people who face trial who are innocent. The criminality of the case determined by the court in some cases.
I was unaware that we determine someone has committed crime before we even give them a trial.

...something new everyday

so what? My point was that leaving the safety of your vehicle to pursue someone who is fleeing is different that defending oneself.
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Its a 2 step process. First, a grand jury must find that the Defendant PROBABLY will be found guilty - a much lower standard. That finding is NOT appealable and about every police officer will tell you that grand juries will pretty much indict anyone the DA wants them to with only very rare exceptions.

THEN, if they indict, there is a trial.

I GREATLY oppose people held in jail merely to make them stay there while running it up a trial flagpole 6 months, a year, 18 months later. That also is a huge tool to pressure people to plea out. Sure, millions of people go to jail before convicted of anything, most plea on lesser charges because they LITERALLY will serve more time by going to trial and being found not guilty than taking the plea offer.

The case should NOT be taken to trial unless the prosecutor legitimately believes she/he will all but certainly win the case. To just throw someone in jail for a year to just let a jury take the heat off the police and prosecutor would be an injustice.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
A lot of words, but they don't mean much. "Guilty of creating a deadly environment" and "deadly scenario." That statute isn't on the books in Florida. What state are you in?

Look, you can think Zimmerman is the scum of the earth, a true maniac, paranoid, bigoted, low intelligent wacko. But that doesn't make a winnable criminal case.

I like your phrase of "the hunted becomes the hunter." I think that is EXACTLY what happened.

Sooooo... we get to really is the few seconds fact-question of the entire case - and only Zimmerman the living witness that knows what that fact is - if in the panic even he does. In the few seconds of the fight, how did the gun get into that picture and, exactly, the "scrambling for the gun."

MAYBE forensics will give a strong indication (distance of the shot - and the angle of it.) Maybe a voice print can tell us who was shouting and shouting what? Or maybe only Karnak the Great can ever know. If the latter is what is true, it is a "not guilty." Just like innocent people get convicted sometimes, even more times guilty people go free simply for lack of sufficient evidence.

When I SEEMINGLY argue FOR Zimmerman, really I am arguing against some slogan, premise or overall concept I disagree with. And we disagree about neighborhood crime watch as an example.

But to get a conviction - I mean a legitimate one because I think this now soooo far into politics that may not be possible - requires certainties and absolutes.

We can't know what we can't know. We can't know what we aren't told. For example, did the police ask Ziimmerman to take a polygraph test? Did they do a drug test on Martin? Zimmerman? Were I the defense attorney for Zimmerman, I'd want him to refuse a polygraph. But I would DEMAND a hair sample - AND FAST - of Martin's hair hoping to find out if it indicated pot, cocaine, and certainty if it indicated meth. Etc. Do you think that would be relevant? If Martin showed meth usage - a drug that tends to make people feel like superman and of violent outbursts? Or pot, that can make some people paranoid?

I didn't write that to slam Martin, just some of the almost countless "tool" and "issues" and question marks the defense can raise - noting the defense doesn't have to prove anything, only raise question marks.
Click to expand...

I think the Grand Jury trial they're planning will tell the tale. IMVHO, it will hinge on the exact wording of the law and given that exact wording, if the grand jury believes that the law is intended to protect someone who instigates a confrontation...because I think that's what Zimmerman did. I know you don't believe that; maybe it's because I'm a women -- and in that scenerio, I would call what Zimmerman did a confrontation. I would have been afraid.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Excon said:
Why ... statement.
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To you, speaking was the confrontation?
You don't see the whole following him and coming up on him part as initiating?

I see.
We're just using different definitions of the word.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
Its a 2 step process. First, a grand jury must find that the Defendant PROBABLY will be found guilty - a much lower standard. That finding is NOT appealable and about every police officer will tell you that grand juries will pretty much indict anyone the DA wants them to with only very rare exceptions.

THEN, if they indict, there is a trial.
Click to expand...
Everyone accused of a crime gets a grand jury? Or is that more of an exceptional thing?

joko104 said:
I GREATLY oppose people held in jail merely to make them stay there while running it up a trial flagpole 6 months, a year, 18 months later.
Click to expand...
Me too. But it's irrelevant.


joko104 said:
The case should NOT be taken to trial unless the prosecutor legitimately believes she/he will all but certainly win the case.
Click to expand...
Says you yet again.

joko104 said:
To just throw someone in jail for a year to just let a jury take the heat off the police and prosecutor would be an injustice.
Click to expand...
Yeah it would.
However, to put someone in jail who has committed a potentially illegal act is a different matter. I have heard that it's even a common practice.
ymmv
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
Oh, BTW "George" in the Latino community is a two syllable word with H sounds, for you who so enjoying slamming him because you like the race of the other guy better.
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Spelled "Jorge" home skillet.

They pronounce Jesus "hayseuss" too. But most guys named Jesus go by "Chuey"

Your point?
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

rocket88 said:
Stand Your Ground authors: Trayvon Martin’s shooter should likely be charged, avoid immunity - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

The law as interpreted by a judge may be one thing, but the authors of the SYG law say it wasn't their intent to protect someone in a case like this.
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The notion that stand your ground is why the police have not charged Zimmerman came from where exactly?
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

ThePlayDrive said:
Do you seriously not see the threat that a person who follows innocent people down the street and then ends up killing them is to society?
Click to expand...

What I'm seeing from him is that within the current framework of the law these situations are acceptable. Then if one chooses to accept that it was legal under those legal circumstances, if one decides to criticise that law they're working toward an Obama re-election.

And obviously because there is a political and media interest in the matter it should be dismissed out of hand. Because the drafting, repeal and fine-tuning of legislation isn't usually subject to politics and the media....(what)?
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
The law does not require "standing your ground."

But my god, pick one! Was he "fleeing" Zimmerman (about 100 messages saying that the certain fact) or "standing his ground" (about100 messages as that the certain fact) or did he again turn and approach Zimmerman?

According to the only eye witness, an African American teen out with his dog, Martin in a sense was "standing his ground" - over Zimmerman on the ground, "fighting."

Martin, clearly the superior and many of us see the obviousness of that, didn't know he had brought fist and feet to what became a gun fight. That the old guy might have a gun is one reason 17 year olds shouldn't get too cocky about wanting beating up old guys that are annoying him.
Click to expand...

I thought Zimmerman was 28? Hardly an old guy.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

ThePlayDrive said:
Do you seriously not see the threat that a person who follows innocent people down the street and then ends up killing them is to society?
Click to expand...

Great point, and I've been thinking a lot about what this case says about gun laws and owner ship, but I don't want to derail the thread.

I have to say, it seems like the usual pro-NRA folks have stayed out of this tread, and I applaud them for that.
 
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