Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

[apdst]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Running from the guy with a gun is exactly what Martin was doing at the time.

oh, is that it? Y'all really need to get your stories straight. :lamo

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Stand his ground against what?

a man with a gun, who first followed him in his car, and then followed him on foot.

 

[OhIsee.Then]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

...
I cannot help but notice that, sans public outcry, this would have been a closed case.
...

Yes, the foreigners needed to get involved. And I think I'm one of the cryers.

 

[apdst]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

a man with a gun, who first followed him in his car, and then followed him on foot.

Where was the threat? Following someone isn't exactly a threatening act.

Could it be that Martin was going to, "show that white boy a thing, or two"? "ain't no cracka' motha-****a gonna shadow my ass, ****".

 

[Higgins86]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Why did he punch him?

because the guy was following him....

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Based on the circumstances described, I'd say Zimmerman has no case for shooting Martin. Florida law is clear that an individual may resort to deadly force to counter deadly force. Getting punched in the nose by an unarmed teenager is not deadly force.

True enough. If Martin then had stopped and Zimmerman pulled his gun and shot Martin, its murder. However, the law does not say just deadly for for deadly force, but also serious injury. There also is the prospect that there was a struggle over the gun. WHOEVER threw the first punch (made it a violent criminal activity) is the one who doesn't get away with getting control of the gun and shooting the other. The one who didn't start the physical fight could shoot to stop the other one taking the gun.

An example... an armed robber goes into a store, but the clerk grabs the gun and they struggle over it (that is NOT rare). IF the robber in that struggle shoots and kills the clerk, its murder. If the clerk gets the gun and shoots the robber, it's self defense. If, instead, a robber had a knife, the clerk pulls a gun, but then they struggle over the clerk's gun, its still the same. If the robber shoots the clerk its murder. If the clerk shoots the robber its self defense. Doesn't matter whose gun it was.

Once this became a violent assault started by one of them - and then a gun entered that picture - the fundamental question is who started the violent assault - UNLESS the assailant had clearly ceased his assault. However, to justify deadly force it has to be an assault reasonably believed to be going to cause very serious injury. If it became a struggle over the gun, the question is who started the physical fight.

It doesn't matter how anyone FEELS about that. That is how the law works and quite precisely.

 

[Higgins86]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

The gunshot wound is a pretty good indication. Generally when you get shot, you know that the person who shot you used a gun.

well we were taking about well before the gunshot, keep up please

 

[Dustinnnnn]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

While lots of evidence shows what lead to it all, THE evidence that matters is quite obvious:

1. The ONLY eye witness, and African-American teenage boy out with his dog, says that he saw a "fight," Zimmerman was on the ground, and someone was shouting for help.

2. The police arriving on the scene said Zimmerman had a bloody nose, blood on the back of his head, a wet back and grass on his back.

3. In the phone call recounted by Martin's girlfriend, Martin made no reference to a gun.

4. She said she heard Martin first say "why are you following me?" and Zimmerman then saying "what are you doing here?" Apparently his earphone piece came off, indicating the matter became a violent physical assault at that point - for which we can only speculate who threw the first blow or even if both were fighting - as opposed to one fighting and the other trying to shield himself.

5. THE MOST CRITICAL is still not forensically known, if it can be. Who was calling for help? Immediately upon police arriving, Zimmerman told the police (in the report) that he was yelling for help but no one would help him. However, Martin's mother says it was Martin. Hopefully, a voice print can be made. It sounds like an older voice to me, but that is too subjective.

The ONLY time this became "criminal" is when it became violent. Whoever threw the first blow committed a criminal offense was in engaging in a criminal assault - invoking rather strong defensive-force rights in Florida.

Who was screaming for help would STRONGLY indicate who was under attack and being assaulted the few seconds before the shot fired.

There are times where it actually is legal to beat the crap out of someone, but there also is a point where you have to stop and there is a point where beating or kicking someone you already got down becomes a lethal assault even if you are not armed. Even if you throw the first blow and even if legally so, that does not give you the right to just continue to beat the guy to death or continue in a way to make it more greatly injurious.

6. Anyone with any experience in fighting or martial arts does understand if there is a fight, one on the ground and the other on top, if a gun enters that picture that gun belongs to whoever best can get control of it. That is the other forensic evidence we don't know. The distance of the shot.

IF it was within inches or a couple of feet, this had become a struggle over the gun - and whoever started and continued the physical fight itself at fault. If the range was 8 or 10 feet, then it was Zimmerman gunning Martin down for having beat him up, which he could not legally do.

Zimmerman didn't have to allow Martin to continue to beat him up or kick him - if that is what was happening - nor allow Martin to take and kill him with his own gun, which he legally had and apparently not displayed prior to Martin. Thus, "self defense." But if this was Zimmerman shooting Martin after Martin had stopped hitting/kicking Zimmerman - then it was either manslaughter or 2nd degree.

The forensics matters greatly and decisively - and we don't have that information yet. They MAY be able to do a voice print on yelling for help. They WILL be able to determine (or have determined as a reason they did not file charges) the distance of the shoot within the apparent range by the powder spread.

Being a criminal case, what most likely happened proves nothing and psychological analysis of both of them to then guesstimate what each did is equally worthless.

As a comment:
In terms of minority status, in central Florida being Latino is as much a minority facing bigotries as is an African-American. Bigots around here particularly don't like both. They'd call Martin a "n....r" and Zimmerman a "Mexican" or "wetback."

My question is why would Zimmerman consider a young boy carrying a tea to his father's girlfriend's house as a kid up to no good?

I'm not sure what sort of justification there is for Zimmerman approaching Martin in the first place. The problem is racial whether anyone wants to admit it or not. You can sit on your throne of privilege and say it is not, but the truth is--you don't know what it is like to be a black man or boy in today's society, or a minority for that matter. You don't know what it is like to be seen as a criminal by default based on the color of your skin.

And I don't either. I am a white male, so I have it made. If someone saw me on the street at night in a hoodie carrying some items, I highly doubt the first thought of me to come to mind would be "criminal."

So a boy was walking fast carrying some items he picked up for some adults, regardless of whether he was "walking fast, "running," or "walking," Zimmerman had no justifiable reason to approach him. Regardless of race, if someone was following me, I might run. But how long can minorities run? Martin should have stood up for himself, but he shouldn't have died from it.

 

[apdst]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

because the guy was following him....

So, you're saying that I can assualt anyone that I deem to be following me?

I think it's time for the handwringers to just admit that they don't have the first ****ing clue what actually went down and stop with all the bed wetting over this.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Where was the threat? Following someone isn't exactly a threatening act.

Could it be that Martin was going to, "show that white boy a thing, or two"? "ain't no cracka' motha-****a gonna shadow my ass, ****".

It appears both acted stupidly and foolishly. First Zimmerman. Then Martin or then both. Go looking for trouble and you may find it, or as Clint Eastwood put it, "a man's got to know his limitations."

When guys most tend to get into fights and it mostly likely someone really is, is when both men are incompetent fighters.

 

[Higgins86]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

True enough. If Martin then had stopped and Zimmerman pulled his gun and shot Martin, its murder. However, the law does not say just deadly for for deadly force, but also serious injury. There also is the prospect that there was a struggle over the gun. WHOEVER threw the first punch (made it a violent criminal activity) is the one who doesn't get away with getting control of the gun and shooting the other. The one who didn't start the physical fight could shoot to stop the other one taking the gun.

An example... an armed robber goes into a store, but the clerk grabs the gun and they struggle over it (that is NOT rare). IF the robber in that struggle shoots and kills the clerk, its murder. If the clerk gets the gun and shoots the robber, it's self defense. If, instead, a robber had a knife, the clerk pulls a gun, but then they struggle over the clerk's gun, its still the same. If the robber shoots the clerk its murder. If the clerk shoots the robber its self defense. Doesn't matter whose gun it was.

Once this became a violent assault started by one of them - and then a gun entered that picture - the fundamental question is who started the violent assault - UNLESS the assailant had clearly ceased his assault. However, to justify deadly force it has to be an assault reasonably believed to be going to cause very serious injury. If it became a struggle over the gun, the question is who started the physical fight.

It doesn't matter how anyone FEELS about that. That is how the law works and quite precisely.

by following Martin, Zimmerman started a chain of events for which he alone is responsible and ended with the death of a teenage boy. Even if Martin attacked Zimmerman ( still not sure how true that is) because he felt threatened, Zimmerman had no right being there.

 

[Higgins86]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

So, you're saying that I can assualt anyone that I deem to be following me?

I think it's time for the handwringers to just admit that they don't have the first ****ing clue what actually went down and stop with all the bed wetting over this.

lol but he was following him WE KNOW THAT, so what the **** is your point?

 

[apdst]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

lol but he was following him WE KNOW THAT, so what the **** is your point?

First you said he was cornered, then you say that he was running. Which is it?

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

That bloody nose was the kid standing his ground defending himself against an attacker.

Zimmerman was not the attacker, Trayvon was.

The teenage girl, who requested that her name not be used, told ABC of her call with Martin:

“He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man... asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.”

Martin, who was unarmed, did eventually run, but was cornered by the “strange man,” according to the girl. She told ABC:

“Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell.”


on the phone to a friend before the shooting, from this I dont know how anyone can defend zimmerman

Trayvon Martin was on phone with friend before death - BlogPost - The Washington Post

All the above you cited is consistent with what Zimmerman has stated.

Im not really sure why this case is so hard for people to understand. Wannabe copster decided he was going to play superneighborhoodwatchguy and followed an innocent kid. Called in the crime (of walking down the street-'those' people always get away with that!) and even AFTER the dispatcher told him they didnt need to follow him, he did. Kid got pissed and instead of going straight home or calling the cops himself, he decided to confront the guy. Fight ensued...kid was kicking the guys ass and the guy pulled a weapon he was not supposed to be carrying and shot the kid. End of story.

At the end of the day there are a few dozen things this guy can and should probably be charged with.

Your narrative is off and it isn't as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.

What do you mean "a weapon he was not supposed to be carrying"?

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Martin was followed by Zimmerman.

Zimmerman followed Martin in his car..and then on foot.

Martin stood his ground..and was killed for it.

You are trying real hard to spin this.
Trayvon attacked Zimmerman from behind.
That is the evidence we have, and that definitely is not standing your ground.

If I was being followed by someone and they cornored me damm right I would punch them in the face, wouldn't you?

Trayvon was not "cornered" but attacked Zimmerman from behind. In no way is that being cornered.

Running from the guy with a gun is exactly what Martin was doing at the time.

Running from a guy is what he was doing. Trayvon had no idea he had a gun until after he attacked Zimmerman.

 

[VanceMack]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Zimmerman was not the attacker, Trayvon was.



All the above you cited is consistent with what Zimmerman has stated.



Your narrative is off and it isn't as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.

What do you mean "a weapon he was not supposed to be carrying"?

As I understand it, he was acting as a neighborhood watchman...not Joe Citizen. Joe Citizen can be armed...neighborhood watchmen arent supposed to be armed. He had done his 'job'. He was told by the police to NOT follow him. He incited the incident.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Zimmerman was not the attacker, Trayvon was....

all the evidence, shows you're wrong.

Zimmermann followed Martin in his car and on foot.

Zimmermann instigated the entire thing.

 

[VanceMack]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Flip the script a little bit. If it was YOUR kid being tracked by a wannabe cop...a guy that had been TOLD by the dispatcher to stop following him...a guy that pressed the issue...even if your kid made a bad choice by confronting the total stranger that had been harassing him...wouldnt you be pissed? We may not know EXACTLY what happened but we know what we know. A good kid was minding his own business and was harassed and eventually killed by someone who was doing everything wrong.

 

[apdst]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Flip the script a little bit. If it was YOUR kid being tracked by a wannabe cop...a guy that had been TOLD by the dispatcher to stop following him...a guy that pressed the issue...even if your kid made a bad choice by confronting the total stranger that had been harassing him...wouldnt you be pissed? We may not know EXACTLY what happened but we know what we know. A good kid was minding his own business and was harassed and eventually killed by someone who was doing everything wrong.

It's starting to look more and more like Martin made the first move.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

It's starting to look more and more like Martin made the first move.

no, by following Martin in his car and on foot, Zimmermann made the first move.

Martin had every right to defend himself as soon as Zimmermann started questioning him. Martin had every right to fear Zimmerman and stand his ground.

But I have to say, the fact that you are against Martin, isn't surprising.

 

[OhIsee.Then]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

True enough. If Martin then had stopped and Zimmerman pulled his gun and shot Martin, its murder. However, the law does not say just deadly for for deadly force, but also serious injury. There also is the prospect that there was a struggle over the gun. WHOEVER threw the first punch (made it a violent criminal activity) is the one who doesn't get away with getting control of the gun and shooting the other. The one who didn't start the physical fight could shoot to stop the other one taking the gun.

An example... an armed robber goes into a store, but the clerk grabs the gun and they struggle over it (that is NOT rare). IF the robber in that struggle shoots and kills the clerk, its murder. If the clerk gets the gun and shoots the robber, it's self defense. If, instead, a robber had a knife, the clerk pulls a gun, but then they struggle over the clerk's gun, its still the same. If the robber shoots the clerk its murder. If the clerk shoots the robber its self defense. Doesn't matter whose gun it was.

Once this became a violent assault started by one of them - and then a gun entered that picture - the fundamental question is who started the violent assault - UNLESS the assailant had clearly ceased his assault. However, to justify deadly force it has to be an assault reasonably believed to be going to cause very serious injury. If it became a struggle over the gun, the question is who started the physical fight.

It doesn't matter how anyone FEELS about that. That is how the law works and quite precisely.

I respect your expertise. But I think you have avoided countering my posts. Please tell me if if someone wanted to get Zimmerman and basically knocked on his door at 2 AM, moved to the sidewalk, had Zimmerman come out asking what was going on, called 911, got Zimmerman to follow him, ran faster than Zimmerman to set up what is essentially an ambush. Got Zimmerman to pull his gun and shot him dead in the process, to my understanding everything before Zimmerman pulls his gun is out the window. Zimmerman is dead and everything is cool, legal per SYGL. Right?

 

[What if...?]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

No it is not.

Getting out of his car to keep Trayvon under observation until the police arrive is not wrong.
No matter how anybody wants to spin it, it isn't wrong, and doesn't raise his action to the level of criminality.


Within the known evidence, your position is wrong.


On this you are most likely correct.
Just as Zimmerman should be fine.


As evidenced by the Police Chief's statement. Zimmerman said he was on his way back to his truck when Trayvon attacked him.
Under those circumstances, yes he was standing one's ground.



Was on suspension at the time of his death.
Trayvon Martin Shooting: Tensions rise in wake of Trayvon Martin shooting - Orlando SentinelOthers have alleged that isn't the full story.
But it really has no relevance to either's actions.


Yes, yes. But for Trayvon's action of attacking Zimmerman he most likely would have been fine also.

What matters is the action the rises to the level of criminality.
Zimmerman's action do not.
Trayvon's actions? A preemptive strike? Maybe not.

You have ONE statement that Martin attacked Zimmerman.

From Zimmerman.

You are positing that anyone found standing over a body with a gun can simply state that they were attacked and that's good enough.

You are ACCEPTING the word of someone with every reason to lie.

Not saying he is, NO ONE except Zimmerman knows for sure, as far as anyone knows at this point.

But it is entirely possible he is, and simply taking his word for it just isn't reasonable.

 

[apdst]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

no, by following Martin in his car and on foot, Zimmermann made the first move.

Martin had every right to defend himself as soon as Zimmermann started questioning him. Martin had every right to fear Zimmerman and stand his ground.

Oh, so following and talking someone is now an offensive act that one should protect themselves from, with violence? Private detetives beware...LOL!!!

But I have to say, the fact that you are against Martin, isn't surprising.

Oh? Why is that? 'Cuz he cuhluhed?

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

It's starting to look more and more like Martin made the first move.

What?? How can you possibly say that??

I'm walking on a dark street. A car is slowly following me. And I'm walking. Then a guy gets out of his car and comes towards me. And I'm walking. Then the guy approaches me and I'm scared. I ask why he's following me. He asks what I'm doing there. A scuffle ensues. I'm dead.

Anyone who cannot see the ambiguous nature of this encounter just isn't trying hard enough. Martin did not make the first move. Unless you're counting "walking home in the dark with Skittles and iced tea."

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

You have ONE statement that Martin attacked Zimmerman.

From Zimmerman.....

a cop beating, woman beating, 911 harrassing, wanna-be cop, one-man neighborhood watch, who had a restraining order against him.

yeah, he's the one we should trust.