Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

[What if...?]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

So you honestly think that if the boy were white, events would have unfolded in this manner? If you say no, then it was racially motivated. If you say yes, please provide me with a logical argument.

I haven't read every report on the issue.

But he has a history of 911 calls, he's a neighborhood watch of one, he put his hands on a cop (VERY relevant, as it proves he'll put his hands on people, even though he pled out for expungement)

The "coon/punk" thing is inconclusive, he did not identify Martin as black until asked. So racial motivation isn't clear at this point.

As I said, wannabe cop. Actually wanted to be a cop but was rejected (id be interested to know WHY he was rejected).

It is just as likely that he would "get off" on collaring a white kid as a black one. Either would satisfy his cop fantasies.

The 911 tapes will be professionally examined and we'll know one way or the other whether he said coon or punk. Coon would be bad news, as it could provide grounds for racial motivation. (I'm not a big "hate crime" proponent, by the way, I feel its application is overbroad)

Jackass? Certainly.

Racist? Maybe.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I haven't read every report on the issue.

But he has a history of 911 calls, he's a neighborhood watch of one, he put his hands on a cop (VERY relevant, as it proves he'll put his hands on people, even though he pled out for expungement)

The "coon/punk" thing is inconclusive, he did not identify Martin as black until asked. So racial motivation isn't clear at this point.

As I said, wannabe cop. Actually wanted to be a cop but was rejected (id be interested to know WHY he was rejected).

It is just as likely that he would "get off" on collaring a white kid as a black one. Either would satisfy his cop fantasies.

The 911 tapes will be professionally examined and we'll know one way or the other whether he said coon or punk. Coon would be bad news, as it could provide grounds for racial motivation. (I'm not a big "hate crime" proponent, by the way, I feel its application is overbroad)

Jackass? Certainly.

Racist? Maybe.

Though he doesn't identify Martin as Black until asked, my impression was his motives were racially motivated. Here's Trayvon, by all accounts just walking innocently back to his father's home after buying candy and iced tea from 7-11 and Zimmerman's perspective of that was call 911 and report Trayvon was acting suspiciously and that he may be on drugs. Given it sounds to me like he said "f'ing coon", he seems like a racist to me who wouldn't have viewed a White kid walking home as "suspicious."

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Dammit joko, earlier in this thread you said arresting him would get him a lawyer and he'd get off because of it.

That it would be better to give him enough rope to hang himself.

I THOUGHT you were changing your arguments as the thread progressed.

For some this thread has become a contest of who can post more false statements. I never said him having a lawyer would get him off. I said it would not help the prosecution.

What is evolving is how much evidence it known. Most that is unfolding supports Zimmerman. In a normal circumstance this case would go no further without other evidence. The response to such evidence has been - on this forum and in the media - to ether just lie or ignore it. Overall its be very foolish for his own personal safety to stay in that region anyway.


Unless he just wants to risk sitting in jail for no other reason than sitting in jail, there is every good reason for him to exit the scene at least for a while.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Agreed

He should just go away as fast as possible while, he still can

As for the use of lethal force (I maintain it could have been avoided) I think Zimmerman has a fairly solid case for being "in fear of his life" based on the circumstances described. Some of the unprovided facts might be in favor of Zimmerman, some of them might *in the near future* be against him. But again given the circumstances as even though there is a possibility that Zimmerman may have overstepped, I believe any prosecuting attorney with just a little experience is going to realize the chances of a successful prosecution against Zimmerman for this unfortunate incident is slim

I think some confuse the moral with the legal. They aren't always the same.​

With what is out there now, with a skilled attorney there would be virtually no chance of a conviction in a fair trial with a fair jury. But it is unlikely he would be given a skilled attorney.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Though he doesn't identify Martin as Black until asked, my impression was his motives were racially motivated. Here's Trayvon, by all accounts just walking innocently back to his father's home after buying candy and iced tea from 7-11 and Zimmerman's perspective of that was call 911 and report Trayvon was acting suspiciously and that he may be on drugs. Given it sounds to me like he said "f'ing coon", he seems like a racist to me who wouldn't have viewed a White kid walking home as "suspicious."

What evidence do you have that Martin was just innocently walking back straight home and wasn't asking suspiciously? Virtually everything posted against Zimmerman now is just made up stuff.

Nor in the end was he innocently walking home. He was assaulting Zimmerman after knocking him to the ground, according to the only eye witness to that - who is African-American.

 

[Higgins86]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What evidence do you have that Martin was just innocently walking back straight home and wasn't asking suspiciously? Virtually everything posted against Zimmerman now is just made up stuff.

Nor in the end was he innocently walking home. He was assaulting Zimmerman after knocking him to the ground, according to the only eye witness to that - who is African-American.

Zimmerman was a paranoid man who eventually was going to do something stupid, he had called 911 over 40 times that month and was told by the police on call not to follow this kid. There is no evidence that Martin was innocently walking home or was aksing suspcious but there plenty of evidence that Zimmerman acted well above this station and created this mess.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

As for the use of lethal force (I maintain it could have been avoided) I think Zimmerman has a fairly solid case for being "in fear of his life" based on the circumstances described.

Based on the circumstances described, I'd say Zimmerman has no case for shooting Martin. Florida law is clear that an individual may resort to deadly force to counter deadly force. Getting punched in the nose by an unarmed teenager is not deadly force.

 

[Dustinnnnn]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I haven't read every report on the issue.

But he has a history of 911 calls, he's a neighborhood watch of one, he put his hands on a cop (VERY relevant, as it proves he'll put his hands on people, even though he pled out for expungement)

The "coon/punk" thing is inconclusive, he did not identify Martin as black until asked. So racial motivation isn't clear at this point.

As I said, wannabe cop. Actually wanted to be a cop but was rejected (id be interested to know WHY he was rejected).

It is just as likely that he would "get off" on collaring a white kid as a black one. Either would satisfy his cop fantasies.

The 911 tapes will be professionally examined and we'll know one way or the other whether he said coon or punk. Coon would be bad news, as it could provide grounds for racial motivation. (I'm not a big "hate crime" proponent, by the way, I feel its application is overbroad)

Jackass? Certainly.

Racist? Maybe.

Assuming that the motivation behind the incident is inconclusive, it is still a racial issue in that he has not been arrested for his "wannabe cop" shenanigans. If he were a black man, would he be in jail?

 

[What if...?]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Though he doesn't identify Martin as Black until asked, my impression was his motives were racially motivated. Here's Trayvon, by all accounts just walking innocently back to his father's home after buying candy and iced tea from 7-11 and Zimmerman's perspective of that was call 911 and report Trayvon was acting suspiciously and that he may be on drugs. Given it sounds to me like he said "f'ing coon", he seems like a racist to me who wouldn't have viewed a White kid walking home as "suspicious."

Its entirely possible he is racist.

He has made a bunch of 911 calls in the past. The race of those he called about will probably come out and that will be a determining factor.

But it is also possible that he just wants to bust somebody, anybody, to get his "cop" rocks off.

Race may not be the determining factor.

 

[Higgins86]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

The teenage girl, who requested that her name not be used, told ABC of her call with Martin:

“He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man... asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.”

Martin, who was unarmed, did eventually run, but was cornered by the “strange man,” according to the girl. She told ABC:

“Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell.”




on the phone to a friend before the shooting, from this I dont know how anyone can defend zimmerman

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-before-death/2012/03/20/gIQACLAMPS_blog.html

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

On that, you are probably right. Zimmerman will not go to jail

I don't know about that.

Your definition of suspicious really comes down to everyone outside not in a rush is suspicious. Hoodies are suspicious? Really? Walking in public is suspicious? Give me a break.

Stalking is also an aggressive act.

Zimmerman in all of his Neighborhood Watch Captain duties did not have a good arguement for why he decided to stalk this kid then kill him.

You are in the wrong because you are characterizing this as stalking when keeping someone under observation until police arrive is not stalking.

There is no difference in relative wind speed between a man walking 3 MPH with a wind speed of 0 MPH and a man standing still at 0 MPH with a wind speed of 3 MPH. In both cases the wind is moving past the man at 3 MPH. That is basic science that everyone should have learned in high school. :roll:

Without the local wind data there is no "evidence" at all except either the man or the wind or both were moving. And that's assuming you can shown where this "wind noise" is actually "wind" and not a product of Zimmerman breathing and the orientation of his mic.

lol In reply to the above, as underlined:

If you want that information for more accuracy then yes it should be part of the investigation. It is not needed to determine if the statements are consistent with known evidence.
And so far as everybody can see, Zimmerman's statements are consistent with the known evidence.

Sanford Police Chief Billy Lee said there is no evidence to dispute self-appointed neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman's assertion that he shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin out of self-defense.

"Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don't have the grounds to arrest him," Lee said.

Neighborhood Watch Shooting of Trayvon Martin: Probe Reveals 'Questionable Police Conduct' - ABC News

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Zimmerman

Was

Wrong

From

The

Get.

If he had stayed in his ****ing car NONE of this **** would have happened.

Martin would have gone home and watched football.

Zimmerman would have gone home and watched EVERYBODY through binoculars during commercials on cop shows while the police scanner squawks and grumbles in the background.

A jackass killed a high school kid. Remove the jackass from the equation and there IS NO EQUATION.

No

He

Wasn't

Wrong

From

The

Get.

I do not know the significance of posting this way is, but look, I can do it too.
Does that mean I am in the club?


Trying to keep someone in sight and under observation until police arrive is not wrong.

And if this high School kid just wouldn't have attacked him from behind he just may have remained alive to make it to the resident he was going to and have been able to finish watching the game, right?
The 'but for' game can be played all day.
I would say that in this instance the 'but for' should depend on if it was a criminal act or not.

Keeping someone under observation until police arrive is not a criminal act.
Attacking someone is.

 

[What if...?]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Assuming that the motivation behind the incident is inconclusive, it is still a racial issue in that he has not been arrested for his "wannabe cop" shenanigans. If he were a black man, would he be in jail?

Quite probably, but that would put the racism at the feet of LE, not Zimmerman.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What evidence do you have that Martin was just innocently walking back straight home and wasn't asking suspiciously? Virtually everything posted against Zimmerman now is just made up stuff.

Nor in the end was he innocently walking home. He was assaulting Zimmerman after knocking him to the ground, according to the only eye witness to that - who is African-American.

What is suspicious about walking ho.e from 7-11? What leads one to conclude that is the behavior of someone on drugs?

And the 13 year said he couldn't tell who was who, so who knows where you're getting your information from?

 

[VanceMack]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Im not really sure why this case is so hard for people to understand. Wannabe copster decided he was going to play superneighborhoodwatchguy and followed an innocent kid. Called in the crime (of walking down the street-'those' people always get away with that!) and even AFTER the dispatcher told him they didnt need to follow him, he did. Kid got pissed and instead of going straight home or calling the cops himself, he decided to confront the guy. Fight ensued...kid was kicking the guys ass and the guy pulled a weapon he was not supposed to be carrying and shot the kid. End of story.

At the end of the day there are a few dozen things this guy can and should probably be charged with.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What evidence do you have that Martin was just innocently walking back straight home and wasn't asking suspiciously?....

the only evidence we have that Martin was scoping out houses, comes from a self-appointed Captain of a one-man community watch team, who beat up a cop, beat up a girlfriend, had a restraining order against him, called 911 forty times in January, was refused a position in the police force, and decided that Martin was an "asshole", was on drugs, and was up to no good...just by looking at him.

so....you tell us.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Based on the circumstances described, I'd say Zimmerman has no case for shooting Martin. Florida law is clear that an individual may resort to deadly force to counter deadly force. Getting punched in the nose by an unarmed teenager is not deadly force.

Well, ya' see there's this tricky Stand Your Ground law in Florida. The coppers have determined that Zimmerman is protected under the SYGL, and that's why he wasn't arrested. Without that law in place, I think it would have been a very different story.

My contention is that the SYGL should be interpretted that if one is accosted and afraid for one's life, one can use deadly force. I maintain that the coppers are interpretting the law to mean if I accost someone else and that makes them fear for their life and attack me, I can shoot them.

Whatever happens here, that law needs to be clarified. I see the need for it, I really do. BUT I do not believe someone who is an instigator should be protected under it. I think I read earlier case law in this thread about a guy stepping in front of a motorcycle and shooting the driver who tried to use this defense and was convicted. IMO, the same principle is at work here.

Whatever. What a freakin' shame. This was a good kid whose only fault was walking to the 711 - and being black. Zimmerman should be stripped of his ability to harrass anyone in that subdivision. He is a menace.

 

[What if...?]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

No

He

Wasn't

Wrong

From

The

Get.

I do not know the significance of posting this way is, but look, I can do it too.
Does that mean I am in the club?


Trying to keep someone in sight and under observation until police arrive is not wrong.

And if this high School kid just wouldn't have attacked him from behind he just may have remained alive to make it to the resident he was going to and have been able to finish watching the game, right?
The 'but for' game can be played all day.
I would say that in this instance the 'but for' should depend on if it was a criminal act or not.

Keeping someone under observation until police arrive is not a criminal act.
Attacking someone is.

You keep going back to this idea that persistently following someone around isn't "threatening" behavior.

So tonight I want you to pick a random woman off the street and follow her in your car.

Then, when she becomes aware of you and turns off the street I want you to get out and follow her on foot.

Then, when she calls the police and they come, I want you to tell them she had no rwason to feel threatened, as you were just "observing" her. See how well that works out for you.

"Threatened" is a purely subjective thing. Trying to claim that some big fat guy following you in his car and then getting out and chasing you (which is what "following" looks like to the one being followed) is not "threatening" is silly.

And again, NOTHING in Martins history suggests an aggressive or criminal nature. MUCH in Zimmermans history suggests a loose cannon wannabe cop.

It is entirely possible that Martin chose that particular time and place to suddenly "go gangsta".

Its not anywhere near as likely as that Zimmerman went too far in his zeal to make a "bust", put his hands on someone who was already frightened, got knocked to the ground and then killed Martin in anger or fear.

 

[OhIsee.Then]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Almost everyone posting here is concerned about the particulars of this case. They are missing the bigger issue, the Stand Your Ground law. The law could be applied again. As I've posted earlier, I bet someone get Zimmerman. Check out the area around Zimmerman’s house. Knock on his door at 2 AM, walk to the side walk and have Zimmerman follow them. Call 911, report being followed. Run a short a bit to get some distance and hang up. Now both can Stand Their Ground and it’s clear who would have the advantage. Maybe what Florida sees in this is allowing people to take care of their own problems without the cost of a larger police force, court system, etc.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Martin was followed by Zimmerman.

Zimmerman followed Martin in his car..and then on foot.

Martin stood his ground..and was killed for it.

 

[What if...?]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Almost everyone posting here is concerned about the particulars of this case. They are missing the bigger issue, the Stand Your Ground law. The law could be applied again. As I've posted earlier, I bet someone get Zimmerman. Check out the area around Zimmerman’s house. Knock on his door at 2 AM, walk to the side walk and have Zimmerman follow them. Call 911, report being followed. Run a short a bit to get some distance and hang up. Now both can Stand Their Ground and it’s clear who would have the advantage. Maybe what Florida sees in this is allowing people to take care of their own problems without the cost of a larger police force, court system, etc.

Hey that's right.

What distinguishes SYG and a duel? Survival of the event?

Could two parties claim SYG as a defense, assuming the loser lives?

Could Martin have claimed SYG if he had beaten Zimmerman unconscious?

Would the cops have allowed him to do so?

Very interesting questions.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Martin was followed by Zimmerman.

Zimmerman followed Martin in his car..and then on foot.

Martin stood his ground..and was killed for it.

So your saying his 16 year old girl friend proves Martin is a liar when she said he told her he was "walking fast." Actually, he was standing his ground (over Zimmerman on the ground with a bloody nose and bloody head.)

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

It's not about deciding that he's guilty. It's about him facing an accounting for what he has done.
Having his day in court is what people think should happen.
It's the whole lack of charges being filed that is preventing Zimmerman from getting his day in court,.

People want Zimmerman to be tried.

You said the above in reply to joko104.
It does not matter what the "people" want if his actions do not raise to the level of criminality.
He shouldn't be charged and tried unless they do.

Calling for Zimmerman to face trial is a mob mentality?

When there is no act by the individual that raises to the level of criminality, then yeah.

imho, leaving the safety of your vehicle to pursue someone who is fleeing is different that defending oneself.

Characterizing someone who leaves their truck to keep someone under observation as "pursue someone who is fleeing" doesn't change it to a criminal matter.

Zimmerman is not the Captain of any neighborhood watch, he is not even part of a neighborhood watch. He is a self appointed self proclaimed one man neighborhood watch. The police dispatcher he was on the phone with point blank told him not to follow Martin, instead he not only followed Martin but murdered him. All of these arguments being made here (those based upon actual facts and evidence) will get used when Zimmerman gets sued by Martin's family, as he inevitably will. I'd like to thank he will also be facing some criminal prosecution for his rash actions that resulted in the death of a innocent 17 year old.

I have to say I love how posters keep arguing what the facts in the case are, when the only thing anyone can argue here is what various press reports have said so far. The actual facts will come out in court.

Your narrative is off and your talking about actual facts. lol
The 911 operator did not tell him not to follow him. The operator only suggested that they didn't need him to do that.

And just a reminder, joko104 nor any other poster here has a clue what the "evidence" is, just a lot of speculation based upon differing press reports.

That is not really true.
We have heard the 911 calls and then read the follow up statements.
That is the evidence.
Now there might be more evidence that we do not know of, but as it stands Zimmerman's statement of what happened is consistent with the known evidence.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

It is entirely possible that Martin chose that particular time and place to suddenly "go gangsta".

What that means in a criminal trial is "NOT GUILTY."

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

When he got out of the car he was no longer just keeping a "watch" on this individual. He realized it was a single smaller person than him who he could intimidate with his size and having possesion of a gun.
The kid was alone on a street with no vehicle to find safety in. He has this civilian with a gun coming at him. So what if there was a fight. When you feel your life is threatened by a thug with a weapon you might do anything to survive.

As for the BS about this being all about anti gun rights is just that BS. I think the kid should have in retrospect had a gun to protect himself rightfully against a thug with a violent history.

You narrative does not fit the known evidence and you are reading information into it that isn't there.

There is no doubt that both the individuals involved saw the circumstances differently and both acted on how they saw it.
What matters though is if those actions rise to the level of criminality.
In this instance, with the known evidence, Zimmerman's actions did not.