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doubtless. but it is NOT homosexuals that are "impairing" their careers but their own unwillingness to accept a behavior that does in no way affect them. It is not even sexuality but religious intolerance and the insistence that their religion has more meaning than the law that is affecting their careers. it SHOULD.those who feel religiously obligated (not motivated by hate or homophobia, but by religious obligation, assuming any of you can understand that there's a difference there) to view homosexuality as an immoral behavior might find their careers impaired because of that belief.
you continue to insist that the fact that they do not LIKE what homosexuals do justifies restrictions on homosexuals. that is nonsense. It is, as others have pointed out, no more just in regard to sexuality than it is to race or the very religion these folks are using to justify it.if non-coms and officers are required to go further in actively supporting and affirming homosexuality in a public manner, then yes that could be an issue.
no. nor is it going to be forbidden for atheists to say that Catholicism is a form of oppressive thought control. No one is suggesting that allowing gays to serve in the military demands a repeal of the first amendment.What about Chaplains? Is it going to be forbidden for a Catholic chaplain to even mention that the Catholic church considers homosexual activity to be a sin?
that would be one optionMaybe you say "Well, let him resign and get out of the military then, the intolerant schmuck."
who cares?Okay, let's say all the Catholic Chaplains resign, and along with them half or more of the Baptist Chaplains, plus some others. Do you know how many soldiers are Baptist or Catholic?
undoubtedlyAll I'm saying is that yes, there might be some questions about how all this is going to play out
absolutely not. relgious liberty is the freedom to ascribe to the doctrines of a religion. it is specifically NOT the privilege to impose those restrictions on others. it is specifically the denial of that privilege.and at some point those questions might fall under the heading of religious liberty
Actually Jerry, yes I do "get it." A homophobe tries to make a point using crap evidence and I called 'em on it.
Wow, I guess you didn't "get that."
You know - it just occurred to me how bizarre things really are coming from some people:
Religious people in the military - this is OK because killing is permissible by the Bible, apparently - even though, in the Christian Bible, 'thou shalt not murder' is one of the 10 commandments.
Gays in the military - not allowed according to some religious people because it's not permissible in the Bible.
Thus - it's ok to murder but not ok to be gay?
How on EARTH does that even make sense?
But, it's not OK to abort a baby and, for some, it's not even ok to avoid creating them in the first place?
None of this even makes sense - I'm lost on the religious front.
I know that's inaccurate because there are no homophobes on this thread, even.
Oh man, the religious right at it's worst.
My Take: Ending 'don't ask, don't tell' would undermine religious liberty – Religion - CNN.com Blogs
Really?
Possibly some of his concerns may not materialize, but depending on the implementation of the new policies he might be right on some of the concerns he listed.
As a Southern Baptist, I am not permitted to say "homo is OK", because my beliefs teach otherwise. If my career path requires me to profess a belief that homo is OK, then I have a tough decision to make: throw my career out the window or throw my religious beliefs out the window.
For an ordained Baptist or Catholic minister who is a Military Chaplain, the choice is even more stark: repudiate the teachings of the church which ordained him, or risk running afoul of military policy or even the UCMJ? They already have enough trouble, what with the military trying to forbid Christian Chaplains from publically praying "in Jesus' name".
Welcome to life under "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". :shrug:
Then I would say it comes down to the same choice homosexuals have faced: is it gonna be military service or having an open personal life?
Now I don't think that question is right and legitimate to force on anyone. In fact, I think its wrong. There is a happy medium and a balance that can be struck here. First of all, I don't think you're gonna find many homos sitting in army church listening to chaplains. Homos and church usually don't mix. Secondly, any Christian Chaplain who refuses to minister to a homosexual serving his country is so out of touch with the message of Christ, his ministry is suspicious to start with.
So how about this for a compromise: homos can serve openly and proudly but should not look for validation of their personal choices from the chaplains and the chaplains can believe whatever they want about homos so long as they don't go throwing holy water at them and telling them they are going to hell once they die on the battlefield?
:shrug: All this is going to be decided by loftier personages than you or I, but in general I'm okay with what you said.
I just hope that new policies are implemented carefully, and with an understanding that changing attitudes in the military is going to take a little time and that some allowance for that will help smooth things along.
I am going to post this with complete honesty... I ama Marine Corps combat veteran, I served in an infantry unit, and I went to war. The group of men I served with I will always consider my brothers. No matter what you feel about current conflicts, and whether you are left or right, we need a capable fighting force. My unit was very successful in doing our mission, and without a doubt unit cohesion is the reason we were successful. Allowing gays into the infantry would disrupt this cohesion.
I would go as far as saying that gays could serve openly and successfully in 95% of all military jobs. I would however exclude service in tight knit infantry units. Infantry unit cohesion is essential, and a break down would cause loss of life, and less success, and much less moral. The extremely close living conditions while in combat and constant interaction would create an uneasy awkwardness that would not be a good thing. I am sure there are some gay men that would still do just fine and fit right in, but some wouldn't, and bad situations would arise from it. However, almost every Air Force and Navy jobs would be just fine, and even the majority of Army and Marine Corps jobs. I don't think someone serving their country with honor should have to deny their sexuality. However, I think infantry units whould be left as they are... am I unreasonable? This is my oppinion and mine only, and I hope I haven't offended anyone.
I am going to post this with complete honesty... I ama Marine Corps combat veteran, I served in an infantry unit, and I went to war. The group of men I served with I will always consider my brothers. No matter what you feel about current conflicts, and whether you are left or right, we need a capable fighting force. My unit was very successful in doing our mission, and without a doubt unit cohesion is the reason we were successful. Allowing gays into the infantry would disrupt this cohesion.
I would go as far as saying that gays could serve openly and successfully in 95% of all military jobs. I would however exclude service in tight knit infantry units. Infantry unit cohesion is essential, and a break down would cause loss of life, and less success, and much less moral. The extremely close living conditions while in combat and constant interaction would create an uneasy awkwardness that would not be a good thing. I am sure there are some gay men that would still do just fine and fit right in, but some wouldn't, and bad situations would arise from it. However, almost every Air Force and Navy jobs would be just fine, and even the majority of Army and Marine Corps jobs. I don't think someone serving their country with honor should have to deny their sexuality. However, I think infantry units whould be left as they are... am I unreasonable? This is my oppinion and mine only, and I hope I haven't offended anyone.
I am going to post this with complete honesty... I ama Marine Corps combat veteran, I served in an infantry unit, and I went to war. The group of men I served with I will always consider my brothers. No matter what you feel about current conflicts, and whether you are left or right, we need a capable fighting force. My unit was very successful in doing our mission, and without a doubt unit cohesion is the reason we were successful. Allowing gays into the infantry would disrupt this cohesion.
I would go as far as saying that gays could serve openly and successfully in 95% of all military jobs. I would however exclude service in tight knit infantry units. Infantry unit cohesion is essential, and a break down would cause loss of life, and less success, and much less moral. The extremely close living conditions while in combat and constant interaction would create an uneasy awkwardness that would not be a good thing. I am sure there are some gay men that would still do just fine and fit right in, but some wouldn't, and bad situations would arise from it. However, almost every Air Force and Navy jobs would be just fine, and even the majority of Army and Marine Corps jobs. I don't think someone serving their country with honor should have to deny their sexuality. However, I think infantry units whould be left as they are... am I unreasonable? This is my oppinion and mine only, and I hope I haven't offended anyone.
cpwill- I was an 0311, Semper Fi bro
Aunt Spiker- from your post I know that you never served in an infantry unit. Believe me, you are closer than family after training for combat and then going to war together; there are no secrets. No one would be able to hide homosexuality in an infantry unit, and if they did it would be through a mountain of lies; lying is something you dont do to your brothers.
Like I said, gays could probably serve openly in the majority of jobs offered, just not the infantry. Like it or not, it is a brutal, conservative organization. Conservatives sign up to actually fight when they serve, it is just how it is. Also remember there are kids that are in their late teens and early twenties, they can be pretty narrow minded. Gays in the infantry would be a bad idea, just like having women in the infantry would be. It would cause problems, no matter how you slice it. At the least there would be distractions that would cause issues. We need to leave our infantry alone.
Just remember, the military, and especially the combat arms portion, are very much against repealing DADT. The civilians want it, and trust me, civilians don't know what it is like to serve.
Do families, close families, throw out their gay brothers and sisters?
Do families, close families, throw out their gay brothers and sisters?
Most fundamental Christians I know do not throw out their gay family members. They pray for them and urge them to seek help. I have heard of atheist families and hard left families throw out converts to Christianity though
as a (former) 0351, i have to agree. this, also, is a major reason to keep women out of those same units.
Give me a list of people that say it is.Here is something that has always perplexed me about the OP's line of reasoning. If Christianity holds that sex should be reserved for one man and one woman, in marriage, then why is that homosexuality is any more sinful than straight people who have sex outside of marriage? If the OP has a problem that would keep him from accepting working alongside homosexuals, then he should have the same problem working alongside a straight man who lives with his girlfriend out of wedlock, a situation that is far more pervasive than homosexuality in the military. It's this kind of contradiction that makes this supposedly religiously motivated outrage look like at thin veil for mere intolerance. The simple fact is that the Christian religion encourages respect and tolerance for all kinds, and there is no way that ending "don't ask don't tell" will interfere with the practice of mainstream Christians in any way.
This thread, and all those like it, are nothing but crap. Undermine religious liberty:roll: DADT was a dumb idea by Clinton then and is a dumb idea now. All it does is kick out good men and women, good soldiers based on bigotry and discrimination. None of those being kicked out have caused any kind of unit problems. Some have been in for many years and are well respected by their unit and peers.
The sooner this dumb ass law is repealed the better.
If someone offered me proof-positive that I have been mistaken and that the Bible does not view homosexuality as a sin, I would immediately alter my viewpoint on homosexuality. My current position is that we live in a free nation with a largely-secular government, and that as such it is nobody's business what two consenting adults do in private... however, I am forbidden from saying "homosexuality is good and fine and moral" because of my religious beliefs.
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