Democrat socialists stuck between the rock and the hard place

[Checkerboard Strangler]

But we had a hand in completely messing up their country with sanctions and economic warfare

---To some extent, very true however that doesn't warrant FURTHER interference. Not from our side. The Russians will not be trying to turn VZ communist because they cannot afford to sustain another Latin American country and because they're no longer a communist nation. VZ is way bigger than Cuba, and they dropped Cuba like a hot potato. In fact, I predict that if Russia attempts to insinuate itself too far into VZ's affairs, they await the same fate that would await us, a never-ending quagmire that nearly bankrupts them.

Because the pathetic moron right wingers use it as some beacon of socialism because they are dishonest idiots

They aren't dishonest about VZ being socialist, they're dishonest about all their hysterical hand-wringing paranoia that Democrats envision turning America into Venezuela, modeling our economy after Venezuela's, and/or eventually electing some sort of Big Mac version of Hugo Chavez as President.
I wonder if it might partly have something to do with their subconscious guilt about having elected the white version of "President Camacho"?
(from the movie "Idiocracy")

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

You yourself quoted Sanders in an earlier post referencing exactly what I’m talking about. You cannot claim ignorance now

Except that it wasn't referencing what YOU are talking about at all, it references VZ's sovereignty and the rule of law. But on a much more practical angle, we suck at nation building, and every attempt we have made at it has turned out disastrously. We do not have any interest in VZ beyond their oil, period.

 

[Fearandloathing]

It's like we've rewound the clock to the mid-1950's and suddenly everyone and their grandmother is being accused of secretly plotting a communist takeover of the United States.

I get that same feeling. I recall early in my American education being assigned to write an essay on "better dead than red" citing the bill of rights. I opened with the first amendment and wrote "better red than dead" and was given two weeks detention.

The same atmosphere is there today. Say "this" and be branded a "that:, say "that" and be branded a "this". Americans have long had a deeply held paranoia about "commies".

It';s so easy to demonize anything these days, I am surprised they went back to that old and very dry well. Then again it seems to work, yell "commie" at someone will start something.

Know what?

I've been to commie land, Poland in the late 80's under Soviet occupation at the time. It looked like Detroit.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Except that it wasn't referencing what YOU are talking about at all, it references VZ's sovereignty and the rule of law. But on a much more practical angle, we suck at nation building, and every attempt we have made at it has turned out disastrously. We do not have any interest in VZ beyond their oil, period.

Well and the refugee crisis and the war threats against Colombia, our ally, and the souring relationship with Brazil who’s new president understandably doesn’t want commies on his border. And there’s very much a humanitarian problem in Venezuela.

I think Maduro has gone to the point where our nation building will work fine, as long as we don’t push for democracy, we need to identify a nationalist leader to act as a dictator for about ten years and then ease the country back into democracy. Immediately throwing a country on the brink of civil war into democracy is a terrible idea

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[Fledermaus]

We should lift the sanctions (which are an act of war) & stay the hell out of the country. Let those people decide what government they want.

Also 80% of business in VZ is privately owed. So its not as socialists as you may think.

Except the one industry that made Venezuela prosperous is nationalized...

Renaldo's shoe or the corner market weren't the businesses making Venezuela the richest country in South America.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Modern democrats are all about 'hope and change.' They do not like traditional American laws, values, customs, history, traditions, and so forth, and think they should impose their own ideas and ideals on the whole nation as a supposed benefit for all. They need to talk with their representatives and go through the proper channels to effect changes before trying to make adjustments to the USA in other ways. We are not as broken as some of these idealogues like to think.

It would appear that's exactly what they're doing, "talking to their representatives, going through the proper channels", AND having a national conversation with the American people. If we can somehow manage to marginalize the folks on the right who are desperately trying to control the messaging of the left, maybe we can have that honest conversation.

What the right can do is disagree and try to come up with something better, if they can.
What they ARE doing instead, is trying to sabotage, because so far they don't have much in the way of constructive ideas.
The real tragedy in all of this is, throughout past history, when the left and right have BEEN willing to have honest conversations instead of sabotage, brilliant synthesis has occurred.

The right NEEDS the left every bit as much as the left needs the right. Stop sabotaging and instead try to one-up us if you can, with one-upped better ideas. Do it honestly instead of manufacturing alternative facts. I guarantee you that at least some of us will listen.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I get that same feeling. I recall early in my American education being assigned to write an essay on "better dead than red" citing the bill of rights. I opened with the first amendment and wrote "better red than dead" and was given two weeks detention.

The same atmosphere is there today. Say "this" and be branded a "that:, say "that" and be branded a "this". Americans have long had a deeply held paranoia about "commies".

It';s so easy to demonize anything these days, I am surprised they went back to that old and very dry well. Then again it seems to work, yell "commie" at someone will start something.

Know what?

I've been to commie land, Poland in the late 80's under Soviet occupation at the time. It looked like Detroit.

Moscow in the late 80's, although about 80% of my time was holed up in a couple of offices at Ostankino.

 

[kjwins]

Except the one industry that made Venezuela prosperous is nationalized...

Renaldo's shoe or the corner market weren't the businesses making Venezuela the richest country in South America.

One of their biggest mistakes was to rely on the price of oil staying the same. They left their flank exposed.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Well and the refugee crisis and the war threats against Colombia, our ally, and the souring relationship with Brazil who’s new president understandably doesn’t want commies on his border. And there’s very much a humanitarian problem in Venezuela.

I think Maduro has gone to the point where our nation building will work fine, as long as we don’t push for democracy, we need to identify a nationalist leader to act as a dictator for about ten years and then ease the country back into democracy. Immediately throwing a country on the brink of civil war into democracy is a terrible idea

Bingo, you just confirmed what I just said.
Nationalist dictator, it's exactly what you want right here in America. My father took two bullets in the neck from people who talk the way you do.

There is no such thing as subjecting people to a nationalist dictator for ten years and then easing a country back into democracy.
You behave as if you think people in VZ don't understand that it would be us gifting them with that nationalist dictator, and then suddenly we're all friends again, because somehow by some fantasy, they "eased into democracy". What a crock.

You talk like a bitter, angry, impotent little man who dreams of being a destroyer of worlds...for their own good, of course.

 

[Fledermaus]

One of their biggest mistakes was to rely on the price of oil staying the same. They left their flank exposed.

No, their biggest mistake was killing the Golden Goose. They nationalized then followed up with mismanagement...

Saudi Arabia is a one trick pony as well but was able to weather low prices as did most Gulf States.

Twas the policies, not the prices, that did Venezuela in.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Bingo, you just confirmed what I just said.
Nationalist dictator, it's exactly what you want right here in America. My father took two bullets in the neck from people who talk the way you do.

There is no such thing as subjecting people to a nationalist dictator for ten years and then easing a country back into democracy.
You behave as if you think people in VZ don't understand that it would be us gifting them with that nationalist dictator, and then suddenly we're all friends again, because somehow by some fantasy, they "eased into democracy". What a crock.

You talk like a bitter, angry, impotent little man who dreams of being a destroyer of worlds...for their own good, of course.

Actually yes there is. It occured in Brazil, in Chile, Spain became a constitutional monarchy after the death of Franco, Great Britain returned to a monarchy and elected parliament after Cromwell’s government was disestablished. So your statement there is absolutely false.

Because the left in Venezuela has used outright violence and repression they cannot be allowed to have any franchise if the Venezuelan government is to be restored. After the civil war southern states had to meet certain conditions to be readmitted. The line of violence has already been crossed, so the country needs to have years of restored order before another election.

I do not wish to have a dictator in the United States, we are currently a functioning society but if we entered a civil war or prolonged civil unrest to the degree a country like Venezuela is now and constitutional government has broken down then order needs to be restored and that would not be an appropriate time for an election as the opposition wants to see in Venezuela right now.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

It would appear that's exactly what they're doing, "talking to their representatives, going through the proper channels", AND having a national conversation with the American people. If we can somehow manage to marginalize the folks on the right who are desperately trying to control the messaging of the left, maybe we can have that honest conversation.

What the right can do is disagree and try to come up with something better, if they can.
What they ARE doing instead, is trying to sabotage, because so far they don't have much in the way of constructive ideas.
The real tragedy in all of this is, throughout past history, when the left and right have BEEN willing to have honest conversations instead of sabotage, brilliant synthesis has occurred.

The right NEEDS the left every bit as much as the left needs the right. Stop sabotaging and instead try to one-up us if you can, with one-upped better ideas. Do it honestly instead of manufacturing alternative facts. I guarantee you that at least some of us will listen.

No, I don’t need self righteous busybodies taxing half my income, eliminating my property rights, taking away my private healthcare, making fuel food and other staples more expensive, eliminating my religious rights, and restricting use of my property. I don’t need the left really, They only sit and think of ways to regulate and restrict my life. Why would I need that in any way?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Actually yes there is. It occured in Brazil, in Chile, Spain became a constitutional monarchy after the death of Franco.

You're actually claiming that our misadventures in Brazil, Chile and Spain had anything to do with promoting democracy?
You're insane, the United States PROPPED UP Franco, we PROPPED UP Pinochet, we PROPPED UP the military junta of Brazil between 1964 and 1985.
It's as if you are employed by the Ministry of Truth of "1984" fame.

Great Britain returned to a monarchy and elected parliament after Cromwell’s government was disestablished. So your statement there is absolutely false.

---In spite of, not because of.
PS: The matter of disestablishment is still an ongoing issue, often tied with the position of the Monarchy of the United Kingdom as "Supreme Governor" of the Church of England.

Because the left in Venezuela has used outright violence and repression they cannot be allowed to have any franchise if the Venezuelan government is to be restored. After the civil war southern states had to meet certain conditions to be readmitted. The line of violence has already been crossed, so the country needs to have years of restored order before another election.

And again, you cannot point to any accounts of American nation building where a NATIONALIST DICTATOR was installed and the nation "eased back into democracy" a few years later. The only "nation building" that we ever did successfully was REBUILDING, and it The Marshall Plan, which did not include any "nationalist dictators". In fact, The Marshall Plan took great pains to allow host nations to determine what was best for them, not us.

I do not wish to have a dictator in the United States, we are currently a functioning society but if we entered a civil war or prolonged civil unrest to the degree a country like Venezuela is now and constitutional government has broken down then order needs to be restored and that would not be an appropriate time for an election as the opposition wants to see in Venezuela right now.

"We had to destroy the village in order to save it", good GOD you really do belong at Stormfront.

 

[kjwins]

No, their biggest mistake was killing the Golden Goose. They nationalized then followed up with mismanagement...

Saudi Arabia is a one trick pony as well but was able to weather low prices as did most Gulf States.

Twas the policies, not the prices, that did Venezuela in.

Funny how the drop in oil prices mostly hurt the countries that the US doesn't like. Just saying.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

You're actually claiming that our misadventures in Brazil, Chile and Spain had anything to do with promoting democracy?
You're insane, the United States PROPPED UP Franco, we PROPPED UP Pinochet, we PROPPED UP the military junta of Brazil between 1964 and 1985.
It's as if you are employed by the Ministry of Truth of "1984" fame.

---In spite of, not because of.
PS: The matter of disestablishment is still an ongoing issue, often tied with the position of the Monarchy of the United Kingdom as "Supreme Governor" of the Church of England.



And again, you cannot point to any accounts of American nation building where a NATIONALIST DICTATOR was installed and the nation "eased back into democracy" a few years later. The only "nation building" that we ever did successfully was REBUILDING, and it The Marshall Plan, which did not include any "nationalist dictators". In fact, The Marshall Plan took great pains to allow host nations to determine what was best for them, not us.



"We had to destroy the village in order to save it", good GOD you really do belong at Stormfront.

What does anything I said have to do with stormfront? They’re a white supremacist board, nothing I wrote is from white supremacist ideology.

Going back, we did not “prop up” either Pinochet or Franco. We conducted Normal relationships with their administrations as we would with comparable ally. The Chilean coup and Spanish civil war were domestic affairs in those countries.

Speaking of the Marshal plan we didnt install any governments, and in fact I didn’t advocate installing a government in VZ, I advocating supporting creation of a strong central control state from existing domestic opposition, not a US puppet government. However we did have our finger on the scales. And the Soviets wouldn’t allow their puppet states to accept aid either. A marshal plan for Venezuela won’t work because the intransigent socialist leader would never allow it


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[marke]

Progressive don't care if no one expresses an opinion about Venezuela. We already have social programs and have had them for a long time. Our system of government isn't going to change no matter who is in power. The only people who care about what AOC thinks are Conservatives grasping for talking points.

The new socialist democratic slogan and progressive plan going forward: Don't worry. Be happy. Think cheerful thoughts. Be positive.

 

[Myview]

“Non Democratic means of selecting a leader” translation: she doesn’t want the socialists gone because she supports them. A dictatorship where people have food and security is morally superior to a “democracy” like Venezuela’s

We don’t need to fling ourselves at the altar of democracy, there is no moral requirement a government be one

If that's what you want to believe knock your self out. It would be impossible to convince you otherwise.

 

[marke]

Nonsense? Yes that's what you get when you use the daily caller as your only source of information. Try the red state article on the same thing. Its just as much garbage as the daily caller but at least it has the bit about AOC opining that she is concerned about the non democratic means of selecting a leader. Like I said the only people who care what AOC thinks are Conservatives.

I never accused AOC of thinking.

 

[Fledermaus]

Funny how the drop in oil prices mostly hurt the countries that the US doesn't like. Just saying.

Just saying incompetence will do that.

 

[Born Free]

Start worrying about America and stop trying to distract with bull****.

You can't say much about a foreign country when you can't even run your own.

Yeah MAGA

 

[Born Free]

What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?

Simple answer democrat socialist are for Putin's guy.

 

[Myview]

The new socialist democratic slogan and progressive plan going forward: Don't worry. Be happy. Think cheerful thoughts. Be positive.

View attachment 67249169

yeah rave on. Like Democrats in America have any equivalency with authoritarian governments failed states. Republican governments in America have and administer social programs too. I guess with the narrative among conservatives on this thread that makes them lovers of evil Socialism too. We don't know what Juan Guaido is going to be if he gains power. We thought Castro was going to be wonderful at first too. AOC simply opined that a free and fair election was the best way to pick a leader. Progressives don't care if that doesn't fit the right wing mud slingers narrative. The only people scratching their butt over AOC are Conservatives. Progressives sure don't care what Conservatives think about AOC. English isn't all that hard to comprehend unless you don't want to.

 

[marke]

It would appear that's exactly what they're doing, "talking to their representatives, going through the proper channels", AND having a national conversation with the American people. If we can somehow manage to marginalize the folks on the right who are desperately trying to control the messaging of the left, maybe we can have that honest conversation.

What the right can do is disagree and try to come up with something better, if they can.
What they ARE doing instead, is trying to sabotage, because so far they don't have much in the way of constructive ideas.
The real tragedy in all of this is, throughout past history, when the left and right have BEEN willing to have honest conversations instead of sabotage, brilliant synthesis has occurred.

The right NEEDS the left every bit as much as the left needs the right. Stop sabotaging and instead try to one-up us if you can, with one-upped better ideas. Do it honestly instead of manufacturing alternative facts. I guarantee you that at least some of us will listen.

We have elected representatives in DC, like the president and Congress. Each elected politician has a duty to those who elected him to pursue those promises he ran on. Neither Trump nor Pelosi would be right to capitulate to others in violation of their own responsibility to do what they were elected to do. Trump believes his constituency wants him to support more wall section erection along the border. Pelosi believes her constituency leads her to oppose Trump. Now standard governing processes need to be followed to work out any differences.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

We have elected representatives in DC, like the president and Congress. Each elected politician has a duty to those who elected him to pursue those promises he ran on. Neither Trump nor Pelosi would be right to capitulate to others in violation of their own responsibility to do what they were elected to do. Trump believes his constituency wants him to support more wall section erection along the border. Pelosi believes her constituency leads her to oppose Trump. Now standard governing processes need to be followed to work out any differences.

It's not just generic opposition. Have you ever listened to anyone like Sherrod Brown?

 

[marke]

Simple answer democrat socialist are for Putin's guy.

I hardly see how they could not be, given to their support for socialism and opposition to Trump.