Democrat socialists stuck between the rock and the hard place

[Checkerboard Strangler]

All I suggested was that baby socialists in America could learn a thing or two from what adult socialists have done to damage Venezuela with socialist idealism.


View attachment 67249103

Again, "baby socialists" is inaccurate because social democrats are capitalists, democratic socialists are as well.
And this country won't ever "turn socialist" because we have no frame of reference, having been capitalist for 242 years or more if you count the Colonial period.

If you wanted to worry about the United States flipping over and actually becoming socialist, (or even communist) the time you'd be most worried would have been the 1930's when capitalism FAILED a huge majority of Americans.
Interesting how we managed to stubbornly cling to our capitalism anyway.

And again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Venezuela is a kleptocracy, which involves embezzlement of funds at the expense of the wider population, by corrupt politicians who use their political power to receive kickbacks, bribes, and special favors.
Kleptocrats often use political leverage to pass laws that protect and enrich them and they are fond of circumventing the rule of law outright.
Thus, it would have fallen into economic collapse no matter which economic system it used.

It sounds as if you've lost faith in the strength of our economic system, as if somehow by the mere decree of a few starry-eyed idealists, the entire American economy is liable to just tip over at a moment's notice, where you go to bed one night hearing the Star Spangled Banner at television sign-off and wake up the next morning to total shock and alarm as the Internationale suddenly blares through your speakers.

Last but not least, I want to take issue with the casual misuse of the terms "democratic socialist" and "social democrat", because it seems that a lot of people, even Bernie Sanders himself, seem to use them interchangeably.

Not even Sanders is an actual democratic socialist, (even though he claims to be) he might be a social democrat, like Franklin Roosevelt was. (without admitting it)
There isn't a single member of Congress in either chamber who is an actual democratic socialist. When they say they are, they're wrong, and all one needs to do is look up the definition of "democratic socialism" and then look at the policies these people are endorsing, and the two simply don't match well enough. And not because they're "baby socialists" but because they aren't using the terms correctly.

• Democratic socialists advocate for public ownership, employee ownership, cooperative ownership, citizen ownership of equity, common ownership and collective ownership. NO ONE in Congress supports this.
  
  
• Social democrats support economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic policy and capitalist economy.

Both Bernie AND AOC are on record supporting certain social democrat policies which mirror about what FDR implemented during the New Deal Era.

I don't expect you to embrace Democrats, or democratic socialists, or social democrats, or even mild mannered Blue Dog
"Conserv-A-Dems". But it is important to not veer off into broad brush inaccuracies about where people stand on the issues, at least if we are going to actually have a real debate anyway.

 

[ryzorsden]

What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?

Democratic Socialists/social democrats do not want communism. How hard is that for you to understand?

We want a mixed economy. As do you.

But, just for the sake of discussion, I would like to see police privatized. The pension liabilities and general nature of government work has bred a culture of toxicity, laziness, and general ineffectiveness. Privatize them. We can cut down on costs, get rid of pensions, and be able to hold them more accountable by not having to deal with their corrupt unions that protect dirty cops.

I'm a social democrat. I don't want communism. I want universal health care, reduced tuition for college students, and a living wage.

But I guess that's too difficult for the simple-minded conservatives who look for the most simplistic explanation possible.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Except she's defending Maduro and her political movement has supported Chavez in the past. It's not that absurd at all. Bernie Sanders went to Venezuela during Chavez and said "the american dream is alive in Venezuela".

I'll wait while you pull up something that shows AOC "defending Maduro" because so far all I see is AOC saying that the Trump administration interfering in the process is wrong. Maybe you need to start looking outside The Daily Caller, or not...
...after all, why would I expect YOU, of all people, to support ANYBODY elected using the democratic process at all?
EMNofSeattle, you're on record as HATING democracy altogether.

Well sure if that’s how you define banana republic then keep the bananas coming. If we were turned into an absolutely monarchy with King Donald I I’d be perfectly happy since he’s so far doing a good job governing despite the totally crap allegations he’s being subjected to

Bernie Sanders:

"These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now?"

He made that statement in 2011, when the United States was still reeling from the effects of the 2008 meltdown, and income inequality was skyrocketing while middle class and working class homeowners were still upside down on a lot of mortgages.
I fail to see how there is much to complain about with that statement as it was made at the time.

Care to pull up any recent statements by Bernie regarding Venezuela? Naaah, didn't think so.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

AOC is not a lot of things, including a foreign affairs expert.

Sorry but it doesn't take a foreign policy expert to understand the basics. So while you might be right about her not being an "according to Hoyle" expert, I suspect that she may have done a little more research than either of us.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Democratic Socialists/social democrats do not want communism. How hard is that for you to understand?

We want a mixed economy. As do you.

But, just for the sake of discussion, I would like to see police privatized. The pension liabilities and general nature of government work has bred a culture of toxicity, laziness, and general ineffectiveness. Privatize them. We can cut down on costs, get rid of pensions, and be able to hold them more accountable by not having to deal with their corrupt unions that protect dirty cops.

I'm a social democrat. I don't want communism. I want universal health care, reduced tuition for college students, and a living wage.

But I guess that's too difficult for the simple-minded conservatives who look for the most simplistic explanation possible.

---I've heard you talk about privatizing law enforcement before and it scares the crap out of me.
Apparently you're either unaware of what that results in, or you just don't care if it does.

If you privatize law enforcement, suddenly law enforcement feels the need to "CREATE CRIME" where there isn't any, in order to justify their costs, even if they are non-profit. Non-profits can have larger and larger budgets just like public sector and government, but in the private sector, the justification changes. And as for unions protecting dirty cops, privatization isn't the answer to that problem either. With privatization, you're GUARANTEED dirty "police chiefs" because such a chief now answers to a CEO instead.
And lastly, private sector are not SWORN public servants. There is no such thing as a private sector public servant.

You really should think your idea over very carefully, it's awful.

"Robocop" was not a film about a mechanical policeman, it was a film about a CORPORATION that saw fit to CREATE mechanical policemen, for some very dark and sinister reasons, which you seem to think could only happen in a movie. Ever heard of an outfit called BLACKWATER?

How about Pinkerton?

 

[marke]

Democratic Socialists/social democrats do not want communism. How hard is that for you to understand?

We want a mixed economy. As do you.

But, just for the sake of discussion, I would like to see police privatized. The pension liabilities and general nature of government work has bred a culture of toxicity, laziness, and general ineffectiveness. Privatize them. We can cut down on costs, get rid of pensions, and be able to hold them more accountable by not having to deal with their corrupt unions that protect dirty cops.

I'm a social democrat. I don't want communism. I want universal health care, reduced tuition for college students, and a living wage.

But I guess that's too difficult for the simple-minded conservatives who look for the most simplistic explanation possible.

Modern democrats are all about 'hope and change.' They do not like traditional American laws, values, customs, history, traditions, and so forth, and think they should impose their own ideas and ideals on the whole nation as a supposed benefit for all. They need to talk with their representatives and go through the proper channels to effect changes before trying to make adjustments to the USA in other ways. We are not as broken as some of these idealogues like to think.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I'll wait while you pull up something that shows AOC "defending Maduro" because so far all I see is AOC saying that the Trump administration interfering in the process is wrong. Maybe you need to start looking outside The Daily Caller, or not...

meaning, she's defending maduro because she supports his policies. She has attacked an attempt to support the Venezuelan people against an illegitimate ruler.

...after all, why would I expect YOU, of all people, to support ANYBODY elected using the democratic process at all?
EMNofSeattle, you're on record as HATING democracy altogether.

out of context and irrelevant anyway.

Bernie Sanders:



He made that statement in 2011, when the United States was still reeling from the effects of the 2008 meltdown, and income inequality was skyrocketing while middle class and working class homeowners were still upside down on a lot of mortgages.
I fail to see how there is much to complain about with that statement as it was made at the time.

Care to pull up any recent statements by Bernie regarding Venezuela? Naaah, didn't think so.

Yeah you're right, he can't sell the "venezuela is the American dream" BS anymore so he's gone quiet. He also hasn't said anything about Argentina, but at the time he said that the Kirchner's (leftists) were tearing up the Argentine economy and now Argentina has massive unfunded entitlements and union public workers and restrictions on businesses. And oddly enough despite the high "income inequality" the Chileans of all social classes have more then the Argentines or Venezuelans.

But regardless, yes you are right, in the initial phases when socialism seems to be working the left is all about promoting it and when it inevitably collapses they disappear and the media covers for them. It is irrelevant when Sanders praised Chavez, Venezuela was NEVER a better place to live then the US and in fact the less income inequality your society has often means it's a worse place for the poor to live.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Democratic Socialists/social democrats do not want communism. How hard is that for you to understand?

We want a mixed economy. As do you.

But, just for the sake of discussion, I would like to see police privatized. The pension liabilities and general nature of government work has bred a culture of toxicity, laziness, and general ineffectiveness. Privatize them. We can cut down on costs, get rid of pensions, and be able to hold them more accountable by not having to deal with their corrupt unions that protect dirty cops.

I'm a social democrat. I don't want communism. I want universal health care, reduced tuition for college students, and a living wage.

But I guess that's too difficult for the simple-minded conservatives who look for the most simplistic explanation possible.

Oh? Is that all?

Universal Healthcare leads to reduced outcomes for fatal long term diseases like cancer, where the US leads in long term survival, the reason tuition is expensive is because the government subsidizes it, if grants and government guaranteed loans were eliminated and entrance standards increased and worthless majors eliminated tuition would fall. You don't actually want reduced tuition, you want the government to seize money from tax payers to fund left wing indoc. You are not entitled to a "living wage" if your skills do not rate being paid a "living wage" in the free market then want it all you want you don't deserve it. And any gains you make from raising the wage artificially would be eaten by inflation or reduced work anyway.

 

[marke]

Sorry but it doesn't take a foreign policy expert to understand the basics. So while you might be right about her not being an "according to Hoyle" expert, I suspect that she may have done a little more research than either of us.

I cannot argue against your own assessment of your lack of research, but you obviously do not know me.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Again, "baby socialists" is inaccurate because social democrats are capitalists, democratic socialists are as well.
And this country won't ever "turn socialist" because we have no frame of reference, having been capitalist for 242 years or more if you count the Colonial period.

If you wanted to worry about the United States flipping over and actually becoming socialist, (or even communist) the time you'd be most worried would have been the 1930's when capitalism FAILED a huge majority of Americans.
Interesting how we managed to stubbornly cling to our capitalism anyway.

And again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Venezuela is a kleptocracy, which involves embezzlement of funds at the expense of the wider population, by corrupt politicians who use their political power to receive kickbacks, bribes, and special favors.
Kleptocrats often use political leverage to pass laws that protect and enrich them and they are fond of circumventing the rule of law outright.
Thus, it would have fallen into economic collapse no matter which economic system it used.

It sounds as if you've lost faith in the strength of our economic system, as if somehow by the mere decree of a few starry-eyed idealists, the entire American economy is liable to just tip over at a moment's notice, where you go to bed one night hearing the Star Spangled Banner at television sign-off and wake up the next morning to total shock and alarm as the Internationale suddenly blares through your speakers.

Last but not least, I want to take issue with the casual misuse of the terms "democratic socialist" and "social democrat", because it seems that a lot of people, even Bernie Sanders himself, seem to use them interchangeably.

Not even Sanders is an actual democratic socialist, (even though he claims to be) he might be a social democrat, like Franklin Roosevelt was. (without admitting it)
There isn't a single member of Congress in either chamber who is an actual democratic socialist. When they say they are, they're wrong, and all one needs to do is look up the definition of "democratic socialism" and then look at the policies these people are endorsing, and the two simply don't match well enough. And not because they're "baby socialists" but because they aren't using the terms correctly.

• Democratic socialists advocate for public ownership, employee ownership, cooperative ownership, citizen ownership of equity, common ownership and collective ownership. NO ONE in Congress supports this.
  
  
• Social democrats support economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic policy and capitalist economy.

Both Bernie AND AOC are on record supporting certain social democrat policies which mirror about what FDR implemented during the New Deal Era.

I don't expect you to embrace Democrats, or democratic socialists, or social democrats, or even mild mannered Blue Dog
"Conserv-A-Dems". But it is important to not veer off into broad brush inaccuracies about where people stand on the issues, at least if we are going to actually have a real debate anyway.

You know why that is? Because it became apparent their socialist system wouldn't work over a decade ago, so the same time Bernie Sanders was being a babbling idiot the Dictatorship began giving money to political allies and purging the military so they didn't end up like Salvador Allende when the system collapsed. The kleptocracy is a direct result of the socialism.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

meaning, she's defending maduro because she supports his policies.

---Unsupported claim, pulled out of your ASS.

...after all, why would I expect YOU, of all people, to support ANYBODY elected using the democratic process at all?
EMNofSeattle, you're on record as HATING democracy altogether.

out of context and irrelevant anyway.

Nope, you are on record as hating democracy altogether, I will NEVER let you live that down short of a retraction, and even then, we would do well to remember where you came from anyway.

Well sure if that’s how you define banana republic then keep the bananas coming. If we were turned into an absolutely monarchy with King Donald I I’d be perfectly happy since he’s so far doing a good job governing despite the totally crap allegations he’s being subjected to

Yeah you're right, he can't sell the "venezuela is the American dream" BS anymore so he's gone quiet.

---No, he HAS NOT. You are afraid to point to anything he said recently.

"The Maduro government in Venezuela has been waging a violent crackdown on Venezuelan civil society, violated the constitution by dissolving the National Assembly and was re-elected last year in an election that many observers said was fraudulent. Further, the economy is a disaster and millions are migrating.

"The United States should support the rule of law, fair elections and self-determination for the Venezuelan people. We must condemn the use of violence against unarmed protesters and the suppression of dissent. However, we must learn the lessons of the past and not be in the business of regime change or supporting coups – as we have in Chile, Guatemala, Brazil, and the Dominican Republic. The United States has a long history of inappropriately intervening in Latin American countries; we must not go down that road again."

Bernie Sanders website

He also hasn't said anything about ....

STFU unless you're able to actually back up your nonsense. NO ONE and I do mean NO ONE, is interested in your whining diatribes about a system that America will not adopt. We're capitalists and both Sanders and AOC recognize that.
And you've failed to do anything but suck up more bandwidth with your watered down Morton Downey impersonations.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

You know why that is? Because it became apparent their socialist system wouldn't work over a decade ago, so the same time Bernie Sanders was being a babbling idiot the Dictatorship began giving money to political allies and purging the military so they didn't end up like Salvador Allende when the system collapsed. The kleptocracy is a direct result of the socialism.

You're still trying to shove a straw man about Sanders dreaming of an American Venezuela down people's throats and failing spectacularly.
Not even your own buddies are giving you a LIKE.
The only people who think that Sanders recommends a VZ model for America are paranoid wannabe John Birchers.

You're already on record as wanting a KING, why do you even bother being here at all? You can't stomach the democratic process.

 

[ryzorsden]

---I've heard you talk about privatizing law enforcement before and it scares the crap out of me.
Apparently you're either unaware of what that results in, or you just don't care if it does.

If you privatize law enforcement, suddenly law enforcement feels the need to "CREATE CRIME" where there isn't any, in order to justify their costs, even if they are non-profit. Non-profits can have larger and larger budgets just like public sector and government, but in the private sector, the justification changes. And as for unions protecting dirty cops, privatization isn't the answer to that problem either. With privatization, you're GUARANTEED dirty "police chiefs" because such a chief now answers to a CEO instead.
And lastly, private sector are not SWORN public servants. There is no such thing as a private sector public servant.

You really should think your idea over very carefully, it's awful.

"Robocop" was not a film about a mechanical policeman, it was a film about a CORPORATION that saw fit to CREATE mechanical policemen, for some very dark and sinister reasons, which you seem to think could only happen in a movie. Ever heard of an outfit called BLACKWATER?

How about Pinkerton?

LOL you're gunna argue against privatization based on Robocop..... I've heard it all now....

Look at Yelp. It made restaurants and businesses WAY more accountable. In fact, I'd argue that private businesses these days with the internet and smartphones are much more accountable than government itself.

ANd just to let you know, NYPD had/has a quota controversy in order to generate revenue. And we both know that police tend to try and nail everyone just to make quotas..... So that point is moot.

Nice try.

 

[ryzorsden]

Modern democrats are all about 'hope and change.' They do not like traditional American laws, values, customs, history, traditions, and so forth, and think they should impose their own ideas and ideals on the whole nation as a supposed benefit for all. They need to talk with their representatives and go through the proper channels to effect changes before trying to make adjustments to the USA in other ways. We are not as broken as some of these idealogues like to think.

Another misconception about "Modern Democrats." But, before I respond, I guess im assuming you mean modern democrats such as the progressives.

I could respond with the fact that this is more of a backlash against the religiousness plaguing the republican party atm. Sorry, a book of fairy tales shouldn't tell us how to run government.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

LOL you're gunna argue against privatization based on Robocop..... I've heard it all now....

Yeah I am, the story made a salient point, and all you're able to do to counter it is yell about it being a movie. Oh WOW.

Look at Yelp. It made restaurants and businesses WAY more accountable. In fact, I'd argue that private businesses these days with the internet and smartphones are much more accountable than government itself.

A police dept gets negative Yelp reviews and...what exactly?



Maybe that would make for an extremely funny SNL skit or a Funny or Die clip. So, Joe Arpaio loses his badge because of bad Yelp reviews.
Anyone out there think this is serious?

ANd just to let you know, NYPD had/has a quota controversy in order to generate revenue. And we both know that police tend to try and nail everyone just to make quotas..... So that point is moot.

Nice try.

I've ****ing lived in New York, have you? Don't attempt to "school me" on police quotas.
You still can't seem to answer ANY of the other points I brought up, like the fact that a corporate police chief answers to a CEO.
Oh and, by the way, now that I think about it, there is NO WAY IN HELL a privatized law enforcement outfit would EVER be nonprofit.
It WOULD be profit driven.

I will wait while you defend the sanctity of profit as a cleaner motivation to enforce the law.
Seems it didn't work too well in the private prison industry when a judge had some investments in corporate owned corrections.

You just haven't thought this through, it's one of those "really bad ideas" and maybe you should toss it in the trash and try again.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

You're still trying to shove a straw man about Sanders dreaming of an American Venezuela down people's throats and failing spectacularly.
Not even your own buddies are giving you a LIKE.
The only people who think that Sanders recommends a VZ model for America are paranoid wannabe John Birchers.

You're already on record as wanting a KING, why do you even bother being here at all? You can't stomach the democratic process.

Sanders’s praise for Venezuela speaks for itself. He supports many of the same economic policies and supported Chavez’s government.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Praxas]

You're right. Why should Americans give a **** about innocent people having to get their next meal out of a garbage can because their own government screwed up their country?

So you think that deserves the US to meddle in the affairs of other countries? Funny how you don’t give a **** about those fleeing countries to get away from oppressive governments but you care all off a sudden about Venezuela.

 

[Praxas]

Because, oil. And Putin is trying to use the situation to gain a toehold on our continent.

Oh please, not this **** again. Let us know when Russian bases are in Venezuela. :roll:

 

[notquiteright]

One can only hope socialists like Ocasio can learn something from the collapse of Venezuela due to socialist foolishness.

As often occurs in such issues, the wrong people attempt to force the wrong lesson on everyone else. Socialism has zero to do with this just like 'capitalism' had little to do with Chile or Argentina... :roll:

Dictators, no matter the faux label, rarely produce a stable expanding economy.... eace

 

[yankintx]

Bitch slap of the thread, I could hear it loud and clear even in Saudi:lamog

 

[Oborosen]

What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?

Cortez is still relatively considered a child in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Mycroft]

So you think that deserves the US to meddle in the affairs of other countries? Funny how you don’t give a **** about those fleeing countries to get away from oppressive governments but you care all off a sudden about Venezuela.

Oh, I give a **** about those people. I just don't want them illegally crossing our border.

 

[Fenton]

As often occurs in such issues, the wrong people attempt to force the wrong lesson on everyone else. Socialism has zero to do with this just like 'capitalism' had little to do with Chile or Argentina... :roll:

Dictators, no matter the faux label, rarely produce a stable expanding economy.... eace

So you this Venezuela just had a 30 year run of bad luck when it came to electing their politicans ? Maduro and Chavez couldn't do this on their own.

This was the result of years of systemic large scale Governmental corruption, incompetence and mismanagement of their economy and resources

The Venezuelan Govt has so mismanaged their industries, that Venezuela is now forced to import oil.

Venezuelan Socialist central planners built an economy around a voltatile commodity and ran other industries into the ground. This forced them to become dependent on imports for basic goods and medicine and led to the crippling shortages we see today
Importers do not want to be paid with worthless Bolivars.

Socialism has everything to do with it. To say otherwise is to not understand the issue.

 

[Sampson Simpson]

Nothing, I don't live in Venezuela, it's a corrupt kleptocracy being run by a table of thieves.
It is doubtful a group like Chavez, Maduro, et al would make a good run of it no matter what economic system they claimed, because a kleptocracy is a kleptocracy any way you slice it.

But we had a hand in completely messing up their country with sanctions and economic warfare

Who cares? Why do Americans need to pick a side for Venezuela?

Because the pathetic moron right wingers use it as some beacon of socialism because they are dishonest idiots

One can only hope socialists like Ocasio can learn something from the collapse of Venezuela due to socialist foolishness.

see

 

[Sampson Simpson]

You're right. Why should Americans give a **** about innocent people having to get their next meal out of a garbage can because their own government screwed up their country?

Americans don't even care about their own people eating meals out of garbage in a country our government screwed up