• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Democrat socialists stuck between the rock and the hard place

marke

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 3, 2018
Messages
34,752
Reaction score
3,961
Location
north carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?
 

Checkerboard Strangler

Meat with eyes!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
60,313
Reaction score
42,107
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller/com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?

Nothing, I don't live in Venezuela, it's a corrupt kleptocracy being run by a table of thieves.
It is doubtful a group like Chavez, Maduro, et al would make a good run of it no matter what economic system they claimed, because a kleptocracy is a kleptocracy any way you slice it.
 

bongsaway

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
38,207
Reaction score
25,159
Location
Flori-duh
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Nothing, I don't live in Venezuela, it's a corrupt kleptocracy being run by a table of thieves.
It is doubtful a group like Chavez, Maduro, et al would make a good run of it no matter what economic system they claimed, because a kleptocracy is a kleptocracy any way you slice it.

Neither side, another corrupt government screwing its people.
 

Praxas

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 10, 2016
Messages
22,399
Reaction score
11,861
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent

Fearandloathing

How long is now?
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2012
Messages
26,658
Reaction score
23,515
Location
Vancouver, Canada Dual citizen
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?



Start worrying about America and stop trying to distract with bull****.

You can't say much about a foreign country when you can't even run your own.
 

Checkerboard Strangler

Meat with eyes!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
60,313
Reaction score
42,107
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Who cares? Why do Americans need to pick a side for Venezuela?

That's what I'm saying, it's a tragedy. It would be a tragedy if they were capitalist, and it's a tragedy because they're socialist, because really, what VZ truly is, is a corrupt banana republic where any and all monies and resources are directed to an elite class of bandits who appropriate funds for themselves and nothing for the people.

It is a kleptocracy.
 

uptower

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
15,678
Reaction score
11,790
Location
Behind you - run!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?

The problem is Maduro is an undemocratic bastard but this Guaido guy just came out of nowhere and proclaimed himself president. Neither looks like a democratic choice at this point. If he seizes power with the backing of the army the economy might improve but good luck with future elections.

One however will probably privatize state oil fields and that appeals to at least one Party in the US...

So I'd say the world is between a rock an a hard place, and especially Venezuela. I suppose any alternative looks good to them at the moment but they might be choosing between a dictator and a potential one.
 

marke

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 3, 2018
Messages
34,752
Reaction score
3,961
Location
north carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Nothing, I don't live in Venezuela, it's a corrupt kleptocracy being run by a table of thieves.
It is doubtful a group like Chavez, Maduro, et al would make a good run of it no matter what economic system they claimed, because a kleptocracy is a kleptocracy any way you slice it.

One can only hope socialists like Ocasio can learn something from the collapse of Venezuela due to socialist foolishness.
 

marke

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 3, 2018
Messages
34,752
Reaction score
3,961
Location
north carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Who cares? Why do Americans need to pick a side for Venezuela?

Should American politicians stay out of foreign affairs? You are aware both Trump and Putin are involved in Venezuela and back different sides? Should Congress stay the heck out of it? How about liberal journalists who seem more capable of discussing the issues than AOC?
 

marke

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 3, 2018
Messages
34,752
Reaction score
3,961
Location
north carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Start worrying about America and stop trying to distract with bull****.

You can't say much about a foreign country when you can't even run your own.

Trump and Putin are clearly involved and on different sides. It is probably a good idea for leftist democrats not to take sides in this. Would to God leftist media pundits would stay out of it as well.
 

Praxas

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 10, 2016
Messages
22,399
Reaction score
11,861
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Should American politicians stay out of foreign affairs? You are aware both Trump and Putin are involved in Venezuela and back different sides? Should Congress stay the heck out of it? How about liberal journalists who seem more capable of discussing the issues than AOC?

You are talking to someone that thinks we (as in the US government) should not be meddling in ANY foreign affairs nor should we be bribing hostile nations with foreign aid. So yeah, I'm aware of what politicians do. That doesn't mean I have to like it or support it. I don't take ANY sides in Venezuela because both sides are corrupt as hell and it doesn't have anything to do with capitalistic or socialist policies. Both sides are corrupt, period.
 

marke

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 3, 2018
Messages
34,752
Reaction score
3,961
Location
north carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
The problem is Maduro is an undemocratic bastard but this Guaido guy just came out of nowhere and proclaimed himself president. Neither looks like a democratic choice at this point. If he seizes power with the backing of the army the economy might improve but good luck with future elections.

One however will probably privatize state oil fields and that appeals to at least one Party in the US...

So I'd say the world is between a rock an a hard place, and especially Venezuela. I suppose any alternative looks good to them at the moment but they might be choosing between a dictator and a potential one.

Good points and good reason for lesser politicians to stay out of the troublesome foreign policy issues.
 

marke

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 3, 2018
Messages
34,752
Reaction score
3,961
Location
north carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
You are talking to someone that thinks we (as in the US government) should not be meddling in ANY foreign affairs nor should we be bribing hostile nations with foreign aid. So yeah, I'm aware of what politicians do. That doesn't mean I have to like it or support it. I don't take ANY sides in Venezuela because both sides are corrupt as hell and it doesn't have anything to do with capitalistic or socialist policies. Both sides are corrupt, period.

I think Trump and his advisers know the world leaders must stay involved in some of the troubled affairs of other nations subject to seizure by corrupt operators in rogue states. If the wrong actors seize control of Venezuela then Venezuela could very quickly become the launch pad of a very serious threat to the continental US.
 

Praxas

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 10, 2016
Messages
22,399
Reaction score
11,861
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I think Trump and his advisers know the world leaders must stay involved in some of the troubled affairs of other nations subject to seizure by corrupt operators in rogue states. If the wrong actors seize control of Venezuela then Venezuela could very quickly become the launch pad of a very serious threat to the continental US.

There are no sides in Venezuela that aren't a threat to the US in some way. Again, you just like Trump interfering because you are a Trump supporter so nothing that Trump does you disagree with.
 

Myview

Active member
Joined
Oct 20, 2018
Messages
439
Reaction score
145
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?

Daily Caller not a go to source for progressives . It remains to be seen to what extent we intervene in Venezuela. We have a spotty record when it comes to picking other countries leaders when no democratically recognized vote was held. Its anyone's guess how this will turn out. I think AOC is simply expressing an opinion that a leader should be determined by a fair uncorrupted election. Democrats of whatever progressive degree see this through the same lens as Republicans. Compassion for a population whose world has been turned up side down into crises. We just hope some measure of good will ultimately gain power. Conservatives gleefully squeal about Socialism or Communism and more than imply that Social Democrats have some kind of affinity for Communism or failed Socialist governments. Social Democrats in America don't want the government to own the means of production. We are a Capitalist free market system paired with social programs. That's been the system for a long time. Its not going to change.
 

kjwins

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 21, 2015
Messages
2,106
Reaction score
487
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?

We should lift the sanctions (which are an act of war) & stay the hell out of the country. Let those people decide what government they want.

Also 80% of business in VZ is privately owed. So its not as socialists as you may think.
 

Phys251

Purge evil with Justice
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Messages
52,324
Reaction score
36,837
Location
Georgia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal

Checkerboard Strangler

Meat with eyes!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
60,313
Reaction score
42,107
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
One can only hope socialists like Ocasio can learn something from the collapse of Venezuela due to socialist foolishness.

Except that it is not accurate to use a brush that large and blunt to describe an American Democrat with center-left social democrat leanings as the exact equivalent of a despotic dictator in a Latin American country that subscribes to "Bolivarian/Marxist" confiscatory socialism.

It's like putting a Volkswagen Beetle next to a Bugatti Veyron and calling them both "Bugs".

se-image-737573f35ce16a51ec17ce1f03688736.jpg


A VW Beetle is a 53 horsepower German economy car popularized by the nickname "Bug" which came with an original price tag under two thousand dollars and which had a top speed of around 75 mph (65 recommended to extend engine life) and was extolled as "the People's Car".

The Bugatti Veyron is a 1500 horsepower luxury "hypercar", ALSO made by Volkswagen (Bugatti is owned by VW) which has a top speed of nearly 270 miles per hour, has TEN radiators, four turbos and sixteen cylinders, and a price tag of over two million dollars.

It's like putting a Sears riding lawnmower next to a John Deere 9620R and calling them both "garden tractors".

full_size_20924158_large_39752.jpg


I'm not demanding that you accept Ocasio-Cortez, I am suggesting that the notion that she adheres to the values of Hugo Chavez and has plans to attempt implementing Venezuelan socialism in America is absurd.

It's beyond hyperbole. There isn't even a word in the English language to describe something that far off the scale exaggerated.
 

Fenton

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
29,771
Reaction score
12,231
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Nothing, I don't live in Venezuela, it's a corrupt kleptocracy being run by a table of thieves.
It is doubtful a group like Chavez, Maduro, et al would make a good run of it no matter what economic system they claimed, because a kleptocracy is a kleptocracy any way you slice it.

Saying Socialism is irrelevant to the issue is not having a full understanding of this issue.
Chavez Nationalized Venezuela's major industries including manufacturing, finance and banks and then the Venezuelan Socialist central planners ran those industries into the ground.
They even mismanaged their oil industry and refineries to the point where they now have to IMPORT oil

Instead relying on free markets and diversifying they politicans and bureaucrats built their economy around a historically volatile commodity and because of the Govts mismanagement and neglect, Venezuela became dependent on imports for even the most basic items

When oil prices and revenues dropped, the Venezuelan Govt started printing because at the time the face value of the Bolivar was higher than the cost of printing new Bolivars.
With each newly printed note, they could earn a small profit. It's called " Seignorage " and no Govt is stupid enough to attempt it on any substantive scale.... except Venezuela
That insanity led to the crippling inflation and shortages we're seeing today. Venezuela was dependent on imports for goods, supplies and medicine, but importers don't want to be paid with worthless Bolivars.

Socialism is regressive and authoritarian, even when it's Democratic, and it wasn't just Chavez and Maduro. It was a long line of corrupt bueracrats and politicans who used their power and authority to make themselves filthy rich at the expense of the Venezuelan people

Occasio doesn't want to address this because she also supports the Nationalization of US industries including healthcare, energy production and Banks.
Read her New Green Deal.
 

Fenton

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
29,771
Reaction score
12,231
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Except that it is not accurate to use a brush that large and blunt to describe an American Democrat with center-left social democrat leanings as the exact equivalent of a despotic dictator in a Latin American country that subscribes to "Bolivarian/Marxist" confiscatory socialism.

It's like putting a Volkswagen Beetle next to a Bugatti Veyron and calling them both "Bugs".

se-image-737573f35ce16a51ec17ce1f03688736.jpg


A VW Beetle is a 53 horsepower German economy car popularized by the nickname "Bug" which came with an original price tag under two thousand dollars and which had a top speed of around 75 mph (65 recommended to extend engine life) and was extolled as "the People's Car".

The Bugatti Veyron is a 1500 horsepower luxury "hypercar", ALSO made by Volkswagen (Bugatti is owned by VW) which has a top speed of nearly 270 miles per hour, has TEN radiators, four turbos and sixteen cylinders, and a price tag of over two million dollars.

It's like putting a Sears riding lawnmower next to a John Deere 9620R and calling them both "garden tractors".

full_size_20924158_large_39752.jpg


I'm not demanding that you accept Ocasio-Cortez, I am suggesting that the notion that she adheres to the values of Hugo Chavez and has plans to attempt implementing Venezuelan socialism in America is absurd.

It's beyond hyperbole. There isn't even a word in the English language to describe something that far off the scale exaggerated.

Have you read her New Green Deal ?
 

Checkerboard Strangler

Meat with eyes!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
60,313
Reaction score
42,107
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
We should lift the sanctions (which are an act of war) & stay the hell out of the country. Let those people decide what government they want.

Also 80% of business in VZ is privately owed. So its not as socialists as you may think.

Baloney, it doesn't matter if 150% of business in VZ is privately owned...business in VZ is required to adhere to a strict confiscatory "Bolivarian/Marxist" set of laws that dictate how much they are allowed to produce, for what price, and what materials may be used, when and where goods and services may be marketed and how.

And people have not been allowed to decide what kind of government they want in VZ for a very long time.
I doubt that they'd embrace The Chicago Boys version of economics but pitching pillar to post between command economy dictatorial fascism and socialist kleptocracy isn't what any rational person would describe as "choice".

And it's not even a question of how "RADICAL" VZ's socialism is or was, it's the degree of outright blatant corruption. NO economic system, socialist or capitalist, has a chance when the elites at the top are basically diverting 85% of all revenue directly into their own accounts at the expense of the people. The military AND the leadership are both complicit in all of this.

There is no expectation of even the most remote notion of justice when such corruption is exposed, and it cannot BE exposed because the press in VZ is ALSO tightly controlled so as to only reflect positively on those in power.

Venezuela is a kleptocracy.
 

Checkerboard Strangler

Meat with eyes!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
60,313
Reaction score
42,107
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Should American politicians stay out of foreign affairs? You are aware both Trump and Putin are involved in Venezuela and back different sides? Should Congress stay the heck out of it? How about liberal journalists who seem more capable of discussing the issues than AOC?

AOC is not a journalist.
 

Checkerboard Strangler

Meat with eyes!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
60,313
Reaction score
42,107
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Conservatives gleefully squeal about Socialism or Communism and more than imply that Social Democrats have some kind of affinity for Communism or failed Socialist governments. Social Democrats in America don't want the government to own the means of production. We are a Capitalist free market system paired with social programs. That's been the system for a long time. Its not going to change.

It's like we've rewound the clock to the mid-1950's and suddenly everyone and their grandmother is being accused of secretly plotting a communist takeover of the United States.
 

Checkerboard Strangler

Meat with eyes!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
60,313
Reaction score
42,107
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Socialism is regressive and authoritarian, even when it's Democratic, and it wasn't just Chavez and Maduro. It was a long line of corrupt bueracrats and politicans who used their power and authority to make themselves filthy rich at the expense of the Venezuelan people

Occasio doesn't want to address this because she also supports the Nationalization of US industries including healthcare, energy production and Banks.
Read her New Green Deal.

Here's the GPUSA text, I'll wait while you pull up the word "nationalize, nationalization, nationalizing or nationalized" anywhere in the text, being aware that this is not even AOC's version, which I am still looking for.
Do YOU HAVE access to a copy as endorsed by AOC? FULL TEXT?

Let's see it if you do, because I don't think you've ever laid eyes on it.

Ahhhhh, here it is, right on her website!

See if you can find the word "nationalize" somewhere in there.
 

kjwins

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 21, 2015
Messages
2,106
Reaction score
487
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Baloney, it doesn't matter if 150% of business in VZ is privately owned...business in VZ is required to adhere to a strict confiscatory "Bolivarian/Marxist" set of laws that dictate how much they are allowed to produce, for what price, and what materials may be used, when and where goods and services may be marketed and how.

And people have not been allowed to decide what kind of government they want in VZ for a very long time.
I doubt that they'd embrace The Chicago Boys version of economics but pitching pillar to post between command economy dictatorial fascism and socialist kleptocracy isn't what any rational person would describe as "choice".

And it's not even a question of how "RADICAL" VZ's socialism is or was, it's the degree of outright blatant corruption. NO economic system, socialist or capitalist, has a chance when the elites at the top are basically diverting 85% of all revenue directly into their own accounts at the expense of the people. The military AND the leadership are both complicit in all of this.

There is no expectation of even the most remote notion of justice when such corruption is exposed, and it cannot BE exposed because the press in VZ is ALSO tightly controlled so as to only reflect positively on those in power.

Venezuela is a kleptocracy.

Dude they did choose their own government. According to the Carter Center & the UN.

No fan of the VZ government, but they did reduce poverty & increased literacy in the country. The problems are the US sanctions, the price of oil tanking, & mistakes of the government.

The press in VZ is not controlled. Many speak out against the government.

The US is an oligarchy. What gives us the right to tell others. Are we going to bring them the democracy we don't have?
 
Top Bottom