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Democrat socialists stuck between the rock and the hard place

marke

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What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?
 
What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller/com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?

Nothing, I don't live in Venezuela, it's a corrupt kleptocracy being run by a table of thieves.
It is doubtful a group like Chavez, Maduro, et al would make a good run of it no matter what economic system they claimed, because a kleptocracy is a kleptocracy any way you slice it.
 
Nothing, I don't live in Venezuela, it's a corrupt kleptocracy being run by a table of thieves.
It is doubtful a group like Chavez, Maduro, et al would make a good run of it no matter what economic system they claimed, because a kleptocracy is a kleptocracy any way you slice it.

Neither side, another corrupt government screwing its people.
 
What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?



Start worrying about America and stop trying to distract with bull****.

You can't say much about a foreign country when you can't even run your own.
 
Who cares? Why do Americans need to pick a side for Venezuela?

That's what I'm saying, it's a tragedy. It would be a tragedy if they were capitalist, and it's a tragedy because they're socialist, because really, what VZ truly is, is a corrupt banana republic where any and all monies and resources are directed to an elite class of bandits who appropriate funds for themselves and nothing for the people.

It is a kleptocracy.
 
What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?

The problem is Maduro is an undemocratic bastard but this Guaido guy just came out of nowhere and proclaimed himself president. Neither looks like a democratic choice at this point. If he seizes power with the backing of the army the economy might improve but good luck with future elections.

One however will probably privatize state oil fields and that appeals to at least one Party in the US...

So I'd say the world is between a rock an a hard place, and especially Venezuela. I suppose any alternative looks good to them at the moment but they might be choosing between a dictator and a potential one.
 
Nothing, I don't live in Venezuela, it's a corrupt kleptocracy being run by a table of thieves.
It is doubtful a group like Chavez, Maduro, et al would make a good run of it no matter what economic system they claimed, because a kleptocracy is a kleptocracy any way you slice it.

One can only hope socialists like Ocasio can learn something from the collapse of Venezuela due to socialist foolishness.
 
Who cares? Why do Americans need to pick a side for Venezuela?

Should American politicians stay out of foreign affairs? You are aware both Trump and Putin are involved in Venezuela and back different sides? Should Congress stay the heck out of it? How about liberal journalists who seem more capable of discussing the issues than AOC?
 
Start worrying about America and stop trying to distract with bull****.

You can't say much about a foreign country when you can't even run your own.

Trump and Putin are clearly involved and on different sides. It is probably a good idea for leftist democrats not to take sides in this. Would to God leftist media pundits would stay out of it as well.
 
Should American politicians stay out of foreign affairs? You are aware both Trump and Putin are involved in Venezuela and back different sides? Should Congress stay the heck out of it? How about liberal journalists who seem more capable of discussing the issues than AOC?

You are talking to someone that thinks we (as in the US government) should not be meddling in ANY foreign affairs nor should we be bribing hostile nations with foreign aid. So yeah, I'm aware of what politicians do. That doesn't mean I have to like it or support it. I don't take ANY sides in Venezuela because both sides are corrupt as hell and it doesn't have anything to do with capitalistic or socialist policies. Both sides are corrupt, period.
 
The problem is Maduro is an undemocratic bastard but this Guaido guy just came out of nowhere and proclaimed himself president. Neither looks like a democratic choice at this point. If he seizes power with the backing of the army the economy might improve but good luck with future elections.

One however will probably privatize state oil fields and that appeals to at least one Party in the US...

So I'd say the world is between a rock an a hard place, and especially Venezuela. I suppose any alternative looks good to them at the moment but they might be choosing between a dictator and a potential one.

Good points and good reason for lesser politicians to stay out of the troublesome foreign policy issues.
 
You are talking to someone that thinks we (as in the US government) should not be meddling in ANY foreign affairs nor should we be bribing hostile nations with foreign aid. So yeah, I'm aware of what politicians do. That doesn't mean I have to like it or support it. I don't take ANY sides in Venezuela because both sides are corrupt as hell and it doesn't have anything to do with capitalistic or socialist policies. Both sides are corrupt, period.

I think Trump and his advisers know the world leaders must stay involved in some of the troubled affairs of other nations subject to seizure by corrupt operators in rogue states. If the wrong actors seize control of Venezuela then Venezuela could very quickly become the launch pad of a very serious threat to the continental US.
 
I think Trump and his advisers know the world leaders must stay involved in some of the troubled affairs of other nations subject to seizure by corrupt operators in rogue states. If the wrong actors seize control of Venezuela then Venezuela could very quickly become the launch pad of a very serious threat to the continental US.

There are no sides in Venezuela that aren't a threat to the US in some way. Again, you just like Trump interfering because you are a Trump supporter so nothing that Trump does you disagree with.
 
What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?

Daily Caller not a go to source for progressives . It remains to be seen to what extent we intervene in Venezuela. We have a spotty record when it comes to picking other countries leaders when no democratically recognized vote was held. Its anyone's guess how this will turn out. I think AOC is simply expressing an opinion that a leader should be determined by a fair uncorrupted election. Democrats of whatever progressive degree see this through the same lens as Republicans. Compassion for a population whose world has been turned up side down into crises. We just hope some measure of good will ultimately gain power. Conservatives gleefully squeal about Socialism or Communism and more than imply that Social Democrats have some kind of affinity for Communism or failed Socialist governments. Social Democrats in America don't want the government to own the means of production. We are a Capitalist free market system paired with social programs. That's been the system for a long time. Its not going to change.
 
What do American democrat socialists have to say about Venezuela? Nothing. What can they say?

OCASIO-CORTEZ DECLINES TO PICK SIDES IN VENEZUELA FIGHT AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS DEMAND SHE RESIST 'AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.'

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/24/ocasio-cortez-venezuela-maduro-trump/

Which side are American socialists on in the fight, Trump's man or Putin's man?

We should lift the sanctions (which are an act of war) & stay the hell out of the country. Let those people decide what government they want.

Also 80% of business in VZ is privately owed. So its not as socialists as you may think.
 
One can only hope socialists like Ocasio can learn something from the collapse of Venezuela due to socialist foolishness.

Except that it is not accurate to use a brush that large and blunt to describe an American Democrat with center-left social democrat leanings as the exact equivalent of a despotic dictator in a Latin American country that subscribes to "Bolivarian/Marxist" confiscatory socialism.

It's like putting a Volkswagen Beetle next to a Bugatti Veyron and calling them both "Bugs".

se-image-737573f35ce16a51ec17ce1f03688736.jpg


A VW Beetle is a 53 horsepower German economy car popularized by the nickname "Bug" which came with an original price tag under two thousand dollars and which had a top speed of around 75 mph (65 recommended to extend engine life) and was extolled as "the People's Car".

The Bugatti Veyron is a 1500 horsepower luxury "hypercar", ALSO made by Volkswagen (Bugatti is owned by VW) which has a top speed of nearly 270 miles per hour, has TEN radiators, four turbos and sixteen cylinders, and a price tag of over two million dollars.

It's like putting a Sears riding lawnmower next to a John Deere 9620R and calling them both "garden tractors".

full_size_20924158_large_39752.jpg


I'm not demanding that you accept Ocasio-Cortez, I am suggesting that the notion that she adheres to the values of Hugo Chavez and has plans to attempt implementing Venezuelan socialism in America is absurd.

It's beyond hyperbole. There isn't even a word in the English language to describe something that far off the scale exaggerated.
 
Nothing, I don't live in Venezuela, it's a corrupt kleptocracy being run by a table of thieves.
It is doubtful a group like Chavez, Maduro, et al would make a good run of it no matter what economic system they claimed, because a kleptocracy is a kleptocracy any way you slice it.

Saying Socialism is irrelevant to the issue is not having a full understanding of this issue.
Chavez Nationalized Venezuela's major industries including manufacturing, finance and banks and then the Venezuelan Socialist central planners ran those industries into the ground.
They even mismanaged their oil industry and refineries to the point where they now have to IMPORT oil

Instead relying on free markets and diversifying they politicans and bureaucrats built their economy around a historically volatile commodity and because of the Govts mismanagement and neglect, Venezuela became dependent on imports for even the most basic items

When oil prices and revenues dropped, the Venezuelan Govt started printing because at the time the face value of the Bolivar was higher than the cost of printing new Bolivars.
With each newly printed note, they could earn a small profit. It's called " Seignorage " and no Govt is stupid enough to attempt it on any substantive scale.... except Venezuela
That insanity led to the crippling inflation and shortages we're seeing today. Venezuela was dependent on imports for goods, supplies and medicine, but importers don't want to be paid with worthless Bolivars.

Socialism is regressive and authoritarian, even when it's Democratic, and it wasn't just Chavez and Maduro. It was a long line of corrupt bueracrats and politicans who used their power and authority to make themselves filthy rich at the expense of the Venezuelan people

Occasio doesn't want to address this because she also supports the Nationalization of US industries including healthcare, energy production and Banks.
Read her New Green Deal.
 
Except that it is not accurate to use a brush that large and blunt to describe an American Democrat with center-left social democrat leanings as the exact equivalent of a despotic dictator in a Latin American country that subscribes to "Bolivarian/Marxist" confiscatory socialism.

It's like putting a Volkswagen Beetle next to a Bugatti Veyron and calling them both "Bugs".

se-image-737573f35ce16a51ec17ce1f03688736.jpg


A VW Beetle is a 53 horsepower German economy car popularized by the nickname "Bug" which came with an original price tag under two thousand dollars and which had a top speed of around 75 mph (65 recommended to extend engine life) and was extolled as "the People's Car".

The Bugatti Veyron is a 1500 horsepower luxury "hypercar", ALSO made by Volkswagen (Bugatti is owned by VW) which has a top speed of nearly 270 miles per hour, has TEN radiators, four turbos and sixteen cylinders, and a price tag of over two million dollars.

It's like putting a Sears riding lawnmower next to a John Deere 9620R and calling them both "garden tractors".

full_size_20924158_large_39752.jpg


I'm not demanding that you accept Ocasio-Cortez, I am suggesting that the notion that she adheres to the values of Hugo Chavez and has plans to attempt implementing Venezuelan socialism in America is absurd.

It's beyond hyperbole. There isn't even a word in the English language to describe something that far off the scale exaggerated.

Have you read her New Green Deal ?
 
We should lift the sanctions (which are an act of war) & stay the hell out of the country. Let those people decide what government they want.

Also 80% of business in VZ is privately owed. So its not as socialists as you may think.

Baloney, it doesn't matter if 150% of business in VZ is privately owned...business in VZ is required to adhere to a strict confiscatory "Bolivarian/Marxist" set of laws that dictate how much they are allowed to produce, for what price, and what materials may be used, when and where goods and services may be marketed and how.

And people have not been allowed to decide what kind of government they want in VZ for a very long time.
I doubt that they'd embrace The Chicago Boys version of economics but pitching pillar to post between command economy dictatorial fascism and socialist kleptocracy isn't what any rational person would describe as "choice".

And it's not even a question of how "RADICAL" VZ's socialism is or was, it's the degree of outright blatant corruption. NO economic system, socialist or capitalist, has a chance when the elites at the top are basically diverting 85% of all revenue directly into their own accounts at the expense of the people. The military AND the leadership are both complicit in all of this.

There is no expectation of even the most remote notion of justice when such corruption is exposed, and it cannot BE exposed because the press in VZ is ALSO tightly controlled so as to only reflect positively on those in power.

Venezuela is a kleptocracy.
 
Should American politicians stay out of foreign affairs? You are aware both Trump and Putin are involved in Venezuela and back different sides? Should Congress stay the heck out of it? How about liberal journalists who seem more capable of discussing the issues than AOC?

AOC is not a journalist.
 
Conservatives gleefully squeal about Socialism or Communism and more than imply that Social Democrats have some kind of affinity for Communism or failed Socialist governments. Social Democrats in America don't want the government to own the means of production. We are a Capitalist free market system paired with social programs. That's been the system for a long time. Its not going to change.

It's like we've rewound the clock to the mid-1950's and suddenly everyone and their grandmother is being accused of secretly plotting a communist takeover of the United States.
 
Socialism is regressive and authoritarian, even when it's Democratic, and it wasn't just Chavez and Maduro. It was a long line of corrupt bueracrats and politicans who used their power and authority to make themselves filthy rich at the expense of the Venezuelan people

Occasio doesn't want to address this because she also supports the Nationalization of US industries including healthcare, energy production and Banks.
Read her New Green Deal.

Here's the GPUSA text, I'll wait while you pull up the word "nationalize, nationalization, nationalizing or nationalized" anywhere in the text, being aware that this is not even AOC's version, which I am still looking for.
Do YOU HAVE access to a copy as endorsed by AOC? FULL TEXT?

Let's see it if you do, because I don't think you've ever laid eyes on it.

Ahhhhh, here it is, right on her website!

See if you can find the word "nationalize" somewhere in there.
 
Baloney, it doesn't matter if 150% of business in VZ is privately owned...business in VZ is required to adhere to a strict confiscatory "Bolivarian/Marxist" set of laws that dictate how much they are allowed to produce, for what price, and what materials may be used, when and where goods and services may be marketed and how.

And people have not been allowed to decide what kind of government they want in VZ for a very long time.
I doubt that they'd embrace The Chicago Boys version of economics but pitching pillar to post between command economy dictatorial fascism and socialist kleptocracy isn't what any rational person would describe as "choice".

And it's not even a question of how "RADICAL" VZ's socialism is or was, it's the degree of outright blatant corruption. NO economic system, socialist or capitalist, has a chance when the elites at the top are basically diverting 85% of all revenue directly into their own accounts at the expense of the people. The military AND the leadership are both complicit in all of this.

There is no expectation of even the most remote notion of justice when such corruption is exposed, and it cannot BE exposed because the press in VZ is ALSO tightly controlled so as to only reflect positively on those in power.

Venezuela is a kleptocracy.

Dude they did choose their own government. According to the Carter Center & the UN.

No fan of the VZ government, but they did reduce poverty & increased literacy in the country. The problems are the US sanctions, the price of oil tanking, & mistakes of the government.

The press in VZ is not controlled. Many speak out against the government.

The US is an oligarchy. What gives us the right to tell others. Are we going to bring them the democracy we don't have?
 
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