Confederate Flag

[Datamonkee]

Where was this quoted from, as in a source, I couldn't find it in your sources. I find it difficult to believe this is from a slave, as 99.9% of slaves could not read or write, much less write so eloquently and grammatically correct.

Slaves had about a 7% literacy rate during the Civil War years. (http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/history/surviving2.htm) This equated to about 280,000 (est.) slaves by 1860.
I'm sure the direct quote was "cleaned up", although he was educated at some point. He was a Baptist minister for years. It came from the same website that the other quotes came from.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/lees slave.htm

"I know that he was anti-slavery. I know he didn't want to fight the Union. I like him personally. But the fact of the matter is that he did fight against the President of the United States of America, and for that I cannot respect or honor him." Quoted from rudy0908

He did not fight against the President. He fought for the south, because he lived in the South, and refused to fight against his own direct family. The South fought against a government that overstepped it's bounds and was undermining the freedoms and powers that were granted by the state. Basically, the Union threw out the same articles that granted states independant power to police their own, and make their own laws. Slavery was just the popular political platform that allowed this. The Union was not altruistic, they were power hungry. It wasn't about slavery for Lincoln. It was about maintaining an empire. If the South left, the north would have had to pay more for the raw goods and food stuffs that they needed and couldn't produce themselves. They would have had to pay tarriffs and export taxes to trade for needed supplies. It was about securing their power base at the expense of the freedoms that the articles granted each state to maintain soveriegnty. It was an invasion. Compare it to our work in Iraq if you will. The north needed southern "oil" (cotton, food, sugar), and used slavery as an excuse to use force.

 

[HTColeman]

Slaves had about a 7% literacy rate during the Civil War years. (http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/history/surviving2.htm) This equated to about 280,000 (est.) slaves by 1860.
I'm sure the direct quote was "cleaned up", although he was educated at some point. He was a Baptist minister for years. It came from the same website that the other quotes came from.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/lees slave.htm

"I know that he was anti-slavery. I know he didn't want to fight the Union. I like him personally. But the fact of the matter is that he did fight against the President of the United States of America, and for that I cannot respect or honor him." Quoted from rudy0908

He did not fight against the President. He fought for the south, because he lived in the South, and refused to fight against his own direct family. The South fought against a government that overstepped it's bounds and was undermining the freedoms and powers that were granted by the state. Basically, the Union threw out the same articles that granted states independant power to police their own, and make their own laws. Slavery was just the popular political platform that allowed this. The Union was not altruistic, they were power hungry. It wasn't about slavery for Lincoln. It was about maintaining an empire. If the South left, the north would have had to pay more for the raw goods and food stuffs that they needed and couldn't produce themselves. They would have had to pay tarriffs and export taxes to trade for needed supplies. It was about securing their power base at the expense of the freedoms that the articles granted each state to maintain soveriegnty. It was an invasion. Compare it to our work in Iraq if you will. The north needed southern "oil" (cotton, food, sugar), and used slavery as an excuse to use force.

Apparently Lee wasn't that bad of a person, certainly not evil, but what did he do for our country, as a whole?

As for the reason for the war, let me ask you another question. If the South were successful, and had seceded, would slavery have been abolished when it was? Or would it have continued until they found a better way, regardless of the hardship placed on blacks?

 

[rudy0908]

Slaves had about a 7% literacy rate during the Civil War years. (http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/history/surviving2.htm) This equated to about 280,000 (est.) slaves by 1860.
I'm sure the direct quote was "cleaned up", although he was educated at some point. He was a Baptist minister for years. It came from the same website that the other quotes came from.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/lees slave.htm

"I know that he was anti-slavery. I know he didn't want to fight the Union. I like him personally. But the fact of the matter is that he did fight against the President of the United States of America, and for that I cannot respect or honor him." Quoted from rudy0908

He did not fight against the President. He fought for the south, because he lived in the South, and refused to fight against his own direct family. The South fought against a government that overstepped it's bounds and was undermining the freedoms and powers that were granted by the state. Basically, the Union threw out the same articles that granted states independant power to police their own, and make their own laws. Slavery was just the popular political platform that allowed this. The Union was not altruistic, they were power hungry. It wasn't about slavery for Lincoln. It was about maintaining an empire. If the South left, the north would have had to pay more for the raw goods and food stuffs that they needed and couldn't produce themselves. They would have had to pay tarriffs and export taxes to trade for needed supplies. It was about securing their power base at the expense of the freedoms that the articles granted each state to maintain soveriegnty. It was an invasion. Compare it to our work in Iraq if you will. The north needed southern "oil" (cotton, food, sugar), and used slavery as an excuse to use force.

And who did the South fight? The North. And whose side was the President on? The North. Therefore he fought against the President. Just as Washington fought against the king in the Revolution. And just like our army fought against Saddam in Iraq. The bottom line is he did fight against the President. I can't believe you'd argue against that.

 

[HTColeman]

And who did the South fight? The North. And whose side was the President on? The North. Therefore he fought against the President. Just as Washington fought against the king in the Revolution. And just like our army fought against Saddam in Iraq. The bottom line is he did fight against the President. I can't believe you'd argue against that.

That brings up a good point. The American Revolution was well founded, right? Do you think the British have a holiday for George Washingtion or Thomas Jefferson? No, not at all.

 

[rudy0908]

That brings up a good point. The American Revolution was well founded, right? Do you think the British have a holiday for George Washingtion or Thomas Jefferson? No, not at all.

Right. Regardless of how valid the fight, you can hardly expect the enemy to honor you after the fight.

 

[JOHNYJ]

First of all all those southern officers had taken an Oath of allegiance to " The United States of America " not to any one state.So they were traitors from the moment they violated their Oaths.
The Insurrection of 1861 was caused by southern arrogance and stupidity.They had majorities in the Congress and Lincoln had no intention of forcing he slavery issue.There was no reason to start the Insurrection.

 

[C.J.]

First of all all those southern officers had taken an Oath of allegiance to " The United States of America " not to any one state.So they were traitors from the moment they violated their Oaths.
The Insurrection of 1861 was caused by southern arrogance and stupidity.They had majorities in the Congress and Lincoln had no intention of forcing he slavery issue.There was no reason to start the Insurrection.

Southern officers who served in the Union Army were allowed to resign from federal service. Those (If any) who did not could be viewed as traitors. Their State was their Nation, and the federal level of government was simply something to which the State belonged and which the State could leave for any reason, be it slavery, banking, or agricultural benefits (Whereas Lincoln had taken an oath to preserve and protect these United States). They were under the misguided opinion that the states were republics within a union as the framers intended. Stupidity? Most assuredly, neither side thought things would go as far as they did. Both thought a few shots fired, a few casualties, a little damage and the other side would capitulate.

 

[nefarious_plot]

Re: Nazi Flag

"Defending the confederate flag is the same thing as defending racism and segregation."


How absurd. A: the war was not all about Slaves. To bad America doesn't get taught history correctly.

B. the flag means much more to the people that fly it, then anything about blacks. Its symbol of heritage and pride.

Free Speech: Nobody seems to be for that in this country.

The left uses "Politcal Correctness" The Right uses the Bible and accusations of treason. And everybody calls everybody a racist. all in attempt to shut up opposing viewpoints.

 

[vergiss]

Re: Nazi Flag

On a completely trivial but light-hearted note, my boyfriend's first name is Lee. When he's in a bit of a macho or egotistical mood, I jokingly refer to him as General Lee. Being an Australian with little (if any) knowledge of the American civil war, he still doesn't get it after a year of my own private in-joking. :mrgreen:

Except thanks to the bloody Dukes of Hazzard film, now he'll probably think I'm calling him a freaking car.

Erm... yes. Carry on.

 

[C.J.]

So, because I didn't experience it, slavery means nothing? You did not experience the American Revolution or "taxation without representation", does the american flag mean nothing to you? You also did not experience the civil war and states rights, why does it mean so much to you?

You and others have said that it is a symbol of southern heritage, you are correct. However, southern heritage is different to many people. Your southern heritage is one of states rights, etc. My southern heritage is one of slavery. So to me, it represents slavery, and it is not oversensitive, it is logical.

How many years did the U.S. flag fly over slavery, both prior to the Confederate flags use and after? Why not the same feelings? I would have thought most resentment would have been due to how the Confederate flag was used to intimidate, instill fear, and breed hate after the war.

 

[SKILMATIC]

Re:

Confederate Flag

I think history should be preserved. The confederate flag is apart of this great nations history. Therefore it should be preserved.

Now I dont beleive in waiving it proudfully for it brings about negative connotations of course. But I do beleive about preserving it in a museum. Just like Hitlers NAZI flag and other remnants are preserved, not for prideful display but for the the world to see and comprehend our history.

 

[rudy0908]

Re:

I think history should be preserved. The confederate flag is apart of this great nations history. Therefore it should be preserved.

Now I dont beleive in waiving it proudfully for it brings about negative connotations of course. But I do beleive about preserving it in a museum. Just like Hitlers NAZI flag and other remnants are preserved, not for prideful display but for the the world to see and comprehend our history.

Exactly. I'm not saying we should destroy all Confederate flags or anything, but they should be kept in museums for viewing instead of being flown outside.

 

[JOHNYJ]

Will you liberals get a life. The Star & Bars is not the same as the Nazi flag.
It does not just stand for slavery. It has become the symbol of Southern culture and heritage. Maybe it would be nice if the official condeferate flag. The Bonnie Blue was looked at that way,but it isnt.

 

[C.J.]

Will you liberals get a life. The Star & Bars is not the same as the Nazi flag.
It does not just stand for slavery. It has become the symbol of Southern culture and heritage. Maybe it would be nice if the official condeferate flag. The Bonnie Blue was looked at that way,but it isnt.

First off the "stars and Bars" is not the flag in question, the Confederate battle flag is (Sometimes known as the southern cross). The stars and bars had a blue field in the upper corner with 7 stars. It had 3 broad stripes, two red with a white between them. It was the first of three official flags of the Confederacy.

The Bonnie Blue was never the "official" flag of the Confederacy, although 5 states used it as part of their state flags. Mississippi, Florida, and Texas did and I am uncertain of the other two.

 

[JOHNYJ]

c j advisor # 92
I stand corrected, thank you

 

[JOHNYJ]

The Confederate flag has aquired a new following,in the the North and west.Its working class whites who think that all the preferences given to minorities since the 60's are unfair.It has become the White peoples flag. There may be as many Rebel flags in some working class northern neighborhoods as in the south.

 

[C.J.]

c j advisor # 92
I stand corrected, thank you

We had an election to change our state flag here in Mississippi several years ago and I did some of the research for one of the committee members charged with offering a replacement flag to the voters. The old state flag containing the Confederate battle flag in an upper corner survived the election.

 

[Zyphlin]

My take ((i'm in virginia so...kind of a southerner )):

The Confederate flags, be it the Stars and Bars or the Battle Flag should not be flown on any government property. Not at schools, not at court houses, definitly not at the capital buildings of a state.

HOWEVER...I don't say this because it "represents slavery". I'm more saying it for the fact it represents the confederation, a group of states that tried to leave the united states, and thus shouldn't be flown on united states government property alongside the US flag.

That said, I think private citizens should be able to fly it as much as they want. It IS something more than just slavery. Most people that fly the flag arn't going to sit there and go "Yep...I like me some slaves, wish it'd go back to that, mmmm hmmmm, slaves". If asked they're probalby hanging it because they are from the south, and it has became a symbol of the south. Not slavery, southern living. Southern hospitality, the laid back way of southern life, the enjoyment of open country areas to busy bustling cities. Its the representation of southern life as a whole now, and since its inception, not one particular part and certainly not just slavery. Maybe at one time the flag flew when slavery was something held dear by some of those under it...but like all things it can grow and change.

I still like the post one person made with the Nazi's turning the hindu sign into such a deplorable thing much like the KKK have done to the confederate flag in the long years after the civil war.

 

[nefarious_plot]

This is all so pathetic. Deal with racism. Not something YOU THINK is a symbol of it.

 

[vergiss]

I still like the post one person made with the Nazi's turning the hindu sign into such a deplorable thing much like the KKK have done to the confederate flag in the long years after the civil war.

I see your point, but that doesn't mean you can put a swastika up somewhere and not expect a lot of people to be upset by it.

If you must use the confederate flag... then so be it, I guess. Just do it with some sensitivity.

 

[Datamonkee]

I see your point, but that doesn't mean you can put a swastika up somewhere and not expect a lot of people to be upset by it.

If you must use the confederate flag... then so be it, I guess. Just do it with some sensitivity.

Sensitivity?! What about having some sensitivity towards MY opinion? It's OK to have it if I don't show it in front of anyone that might get offended? Screw them. If they feel it's racist, frankly, I don't care. I refuse to pander to the IGNORANCE of the masses. Until mindreading becomes a human trait, do NOT assume that since I am proud of being southern, and still feel that it was a war of Northern Aggression, typical of our government forcing it's beliefs on those that do not have the same, that I am racist. The liberal government has taken Christianity out of public schools to the point of suspending children that wish to worship privately, it has forced theories of our beginnings on people without objectively teaching the other theories of our existence. It has forced a school curriculum that teaches aspects of sexual morality that should have been kept at home. It forces "sensitivity" classes onto people that don't agree with an opinion, then suspends/fires them if they chose to exercise their RIGHT to disagree, and not to participate. It screams intolerance and/or racism at ANY differing opinion. Everyone in our country has learned to drop the word "racist" or "intolerance" to get what we want. We aren't advancing as a people, we are killing off independent thought in the name of "tolerance". We have doctored our history in order to look more enlightened and "tolerant" of people. We teach this false history in our schools so that it will not undermine the present day government and show it is like all governments. It is run by selfish ambitious people, just like every other government in history. We, the United States, were supposed to be a bastion of freedom of religion, speech, and thought, we were supposed to be different, supposed to be more enlightened. We have doctored episodes of our history to make us look better to ourselves and to others. No one wants to admit to a government that was with the times as a racist government. They don't want to believe that it wasn't altruism that forced a government to overstep it's boundaries to force an opinion onto people that didn't agree. It was financial and political. "Science" had proved that Africans were a sub-species. That they were not totally human. They were considered nothing more than well trained monkeys. This wasn't a completely Southern opinion. This was an American opinion. There were several northern states that did not allow Africans to even live there, free or not. Many Southern people had accepted their slaves as lovers and family. Many stayed with the families they had served because they were treated with respect and care. After being forced to accept a people that were "scientifically" proved to be inferior, the South fought back in the only way it could, segregation. I believe that basic racist upbringing was a direct responce to having "tolerance" shoved down Southern throats. Yes, the South was racist. But it would have died out after having to live with the people they hated. It always does. But when someone comes in and tells you "this is how you will live and believe", you protect yourself, you keep a tight grip on your personal beliefs whether they are right or not. It is the same reaction that many people have now. Those that don't agree with homosexuality are forced to take "sensitivity" classes and it just re-enforces their their distaste. Hellfire and brimstone preaching just re-enforces the hatred of religion.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, if you force his head into the water, he just drowns.

 

[vergiss]

Finished ranting yet?

 

[nefarious_plot]

I agree the simplest and least intrusive to indivual rights is just not be so easily offended.

I think its offensive to remark the flag is a symbol of racism to begin with.

 

[Datamonkee]

Finished ranting yet?

Ha.. sorry :3oops: got a little bit carried away there. :soap

Sometimes it just keeps going.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

I got a confederate flag? Someone want to come protest me? The funny part is your not even protesting the right flag. Your ******* an moaning over a battle flag of the Army of Tennessee. You have equated this flag with slavery for some reason. People flying this flag are not KKK members or slave traders. They may have pride in the south and their heritage. But because you have placed a false notion to a piece of cloth you want to get a riled up. What the hell go get your protest on, but it ain't gonna help. Like itor not that flag is going to be flying throught this country for longer then you or I will live. I see no problem with this flag or flying it. Amazingly I don't now nor have I ever owned a slave.