• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Confederate Flag

Re: Nazi Flag

WTF has everybody forgot about the Cotton Gin, just the invention itself kept slavery going! :2wave:
 
Re: Nazi Flag

I must say, I disagree with most of ideas on this thread. The Confederate flag represents the Confederate states, correct? The Confederate states seceded because they wanted to keep slavery (for the most part), whether it was for money or whatever, they wanted to keep slavery. So, if the Confederate flag stands for the states that wanted slavery, then take out the middle and the Confederate flag stands for slavery. I was reading that article and I was apalled. It said referred to slavery as if blacks were lucky to be slaves. Truth be known blacks were treated horribly. Think about it we all know how blacks were treated in the 50's and 60's, and that treatment was better than how they were treated as slaves. My Grandmother grew up on a sharecropping farm, and she was treated horribly (i.e. rape, beatings, etc.), and she wasn't even a slave. To say that the black slaves treatment was exaggerated is basically a slap in the face to the African American struggle.

Furthermore, one must understand that the Confederate flag will be viewed differently by different cultures. To black people, of course it is going to symbolize slavery because that is what the south was to black ancestry. It is in turn ignorant of our culture to say that anyone who thinks the Confederate flag represents slavery is ignorant.
 
Re: Nazi Flag

HTColeman said:
Think about it we all know how blacks were treated in the 50's and 60's, and that treatment was better than how they were treated as slaves.
Click to expand...
This is in no way meant to justify what happened during the integration years, but the objective theory that I came up with is that it was a backlash of the reconstruction, to be fair to my side of the country however, the north, from what I understand suffered from "closet racism" that is, they were just as guilty of the ideology as we were, but were better at hiding it.
My Grandmother grew up on a sharecropping farm, and she was treated horribly (i.e. rape, beatings, etc.), and she wasn't even a slave. To say that the black slaves treatment was exaggerated is basically a slap in the face to the African American struggle.
Click to expand...
Once again, there is no excuse for that, and I truly feel for anyone who was treated like that and their immediate families.

Furthermore, one must understand that the Confederate flag will be viewed differently by different cultures. To black people, of course it is going to symbolize slavery because that is what the south was to black ancestry. It is in turn ignorant of our culture to say that anyone who thinks the Confederate flag represents slavery is ignorant.
Click to expand...
I can understand that. As a white southern male, I will put out my take on the issue, yes, there are morons who equate the southern flag with hatred for blacks, I see it as a southern pride thing, yes, we have made embarrasing mistakes and have not always lived up to our reputation as being fair, hospitable, or gentle, however, we had the traditions of close families and gentile behavior along with chivalry codes and nice relaxing ways that I feel all people could benefit from, and it is the rapid loss of the nice parts of our lifestyle that I miss, that is what Dixie means to me, not the dark side of our past.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Nazi Flag

I respect your view of the Confedarate flag, and you obviously respect mine (btw you don't have to apologize on behalf of the confederate flag, you don't own any slaves...most likely). But like I said, your view is really based on your culture and background.

I would like to point out that your view of the Confedarate flag is what I call Southern Hospitality. I live in Texas, and I would never live up north again (I lived in Indiana for a year). Why? because of the closet racism as you mentioned. Down south is someone is racist you usually know within about 5 seconds of meeting them. Up north, for the most part, if someone is racist they are nice to your face and talk about you behind your back. I would rather know that you are ignorant than for you to try and hide it.
 
I seperated the debate of the "Nazi" Flag from that of the "Confederate" Flag.

They're now into two seperate threads.
 
nazi flag: symbolized peace untill hitler cruely "changed it" by killing millions of jews and gentiles....
confederate flag: symbolizes a non-existant country which tryed to become its own b/c it wasnt as developed as the north so it had to rely on slaves for production

so similar ... anyways.... i dont think the confederate flag means anything unless it is meant to mean something by the person who has it... if someone bought it cause of south pride, THAT is what it symbolizes.... if its bought for racial reaspons.. THAT is what it symbolizes... if its flown cause it looks pretty.... heck, thats its symbol..."im pretty"..... if its bought to sell on ebay for some investment... it symbolizes money..... so unless you know what it is there for, it shouldnt really symbolize anything particular for it is an UNKNOWN
 
Re: Nazi Flag

Gandhi>Bush said:
I was being sardonic. My apologies.

The south seceeded basically because they new that the 3rd party(Republicans that's basic idea was to end slavery) candidate, Lincoln, was going to end slavery. This was unnacceptable because the southern economy was built upon the foundation of slavery. That is why the south sucked so much after the civil war. It took a very long time for the south to get back on it's feet.
Click to expand...

You, sir, are incorrect on your assessment. You need to read some history books that weren't written in Northern Propaganda. The south left because of the increased tariffs on the goods they needed. The north demanded the southern people to pay for their luxuries. Slavery was a non-issue. Lincoln was as racist as anyone in that time. Congress put forth a plan to allow those slaves that wanted to leave to go back to Africa, but he vetoed it for the cost to the government.
I recommend reading the book "The South was Right". It has various sources within the archives of our government. Laws that were enacted that kept the freed slaves from moving north, requiring them to stay in the very land that "oppressed" them.
Ignorance of our own history keeps the Confederate Flag as a symbol for racism.
 
Re: Nazi Flag

ghost said:
Well Im not agreeing with either side. Because you do have the freedom of speach. And..If you want to be a nazi. Then you have the freedom to be.
Click to expand...

Well there is a liberal point of veiw that says that anyone can be anything they want to even if it is wrong and has to doing with breaking the law. You maybe thinking that I'm am downing freedoms but I'm not, but being a natzi is like being part of the kkk and they don't like groups of people and want to destory property of theirs and/or hurt them. And many will do it! It is the same with Terroists, you can be a muslim who doesn't like Americans, just like you can not like jewish people. But if you join a terrorist group or Natzi's you are going to do something againest the law in the future. If you're not going to then why would you become part of that group?
 
Lincoln did have slaves, but im pretty sure (and i live in the south... pretty close to an old planmtation too) me and Ghandi>Bush are correct, the south depended on slaves for their economy, while the north was more developed from the Industrial Revolution, i did a report on it once... boring :mrgreen:
 
Provita said:
nazi flag: symbolized peace untill hitler cruely "changed it" by killing millions of jews and gentiles....
confederate flag: symbolizes a non-existant country which tryed to become its own b/c it wasnt as developed as the north so it had to rely on slaves for production

so similar ... anyways.... i dont think the confederate flag means anything unless it is meant to mean something by the person who has it... if someone bought it cause of south pride, THAT is what it symbolizes.... if its bought for racial reaspons.. THAT is what it symbolizes... if its flown cause it looks pretty.... heck, thats its symbol..."im pretty"..... if its bought to sell on ebay for some investment... it symbolizes money..... so unless you know what it is there for, it shouldnt really symbolize anything particular for it is an UNKNOWN
Click to expand...

I disagree, you can't just change a symbol. For example, the American flag stands for justice, liberty, pursuit of hapiness, etc.. Someone can't start waving the American flag 50 years from now and say it symbolizes love or something. That is not what it stands for, if a symbol represents whatever that person fells it represents, then it truly stands for nothing.
 
Re: Nazi Flag

galenrox said:
dude, Indiana doesn't count as the North, Indiana is where God took a **** and gave it a couple of senators. It is the biggest waste of space this side of Missouri.
I've always found the opposite of your evaluation. I've found that in the south people will always be real nice to you even if they hate you, while up here people let that **** out.
But I guess you know the south better than me, since I've spent very little time south of St. Louis, just as I know the north better since your experience in the north is Indiana.
Click to expand...

I guess you have a point, I don't know much about the north, but that was how it was in Indiana, the wretched state. As far as for Texas and Louisiana, especially East Texas, you would know if they are racist.
 
Re: Nazi Flag

I didn't think you were racist...okay, maybe a little :), but not really. I remember they had a KKK march in my town, Fort Wayne, and I couldn't help but think that one of them could be my next door neighbor.
 
It is much easier for people to believe that the government fought to free an oppressed people. That was NOT the issue that split the north and the South. It was financial, pure and simple. The north wanted higher taxes paid for imports that the South needed to survive. The north had all the industry, and the south had all the food and materials for clothing. You get a much higher profit for finished goods than you do for raw goods and the north was choking the South out. The north only moved to free the slaves because they were scared of having to compete with free labor.

http://johnsmilitaryhistory.tripod.com/civilopinion.html

http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/abe.htm

I recommend reading the book "The South Was Right". It is very enlightening. Much of what you claim GWB is doing to snow the media is the same thing that the Civil War government did to push the war with the South. And now our history is tainted by the political agenda of a President. Not much changes does it?
 
Where I live, those who fly con-flags usually fly it with a US flag (duh!), and are mostly the ones who say they're big on patriotism, support their Pres., and, you know, are generally the "love it or leave it" types.
The next time you see one, ask the owner why they fly the flag of an enemy of the United States of America. Then, just before they recover from the mental short circuit, ask what the difference would be if you flew an Iraqi flag. Wow! What a great day you'll have.

On the war - I don't think the US Civil War was a civil war at all. A civil war is a war fought between groups within a nation for control of that nation's government. The South didn't do this - they seceeded. They formed their own nation and the North fought to force them back into the fold. Lincoln's goal throughout was the preservation of the Union, with or without slavery. It is true however that Lincoln was quite racist in many of his views, as were most of our leaders until quite recently.
As for slavery and the war, I'd like to mention that I once saw a side by side comparison of the US and Confederate constitutions and the only major difference was that the South could hold slaves. Most of the other differences were quite minor by comparison. Any quotes I've read from Southern leaders of the time seem to show the preservation of slavery as their primary objective. (I guess free labor ended up having quite a cost after all.)
Also, the "compromise" --- "First, Missouri gained admission to the Union as a slave state, with a provision that portions of the Louisiana Territory lying north of 36' 30' north latitude would be free. (This limitation was later overturned by the 1854 Kansas-Nebraska Act and by the 1857 Dred Scott case, 19 How. 393 ) Second, Maine was simultaneously admitted to statehood, which enabled the Senate to maintain the balance between slave and free state representation -- twelve of each."
I believe there was also an attempt to make it up to new States to decide if they'd be free or slave and this didn't sit well with the South. They wanted all new states to allow slavery. (Thus negating the "states' rights" nonsense as to the cause of the war.)

Anyway, as a strong supporter of personal freedom I believe anyone should be able to fly whatever flag they desire and the rest of us can take comfort in the fact that we know where all the ****heads are.
 
There is a case to be made that " The Stars & Bars " is a symbol of the south. Not just slavery & bigotry. The Nazi flag , is just that there is no mitigating possibilities. Would it be better if people who want to honor the old South used the " Bonnie Blue Flag " of the CSA , yes.
In a country where people are allowed to burn the nations official flag.The possibility of stopping people from displaying the "Stars & Bars " is nill.
 
I don't think they should stop displaying the Confederate flag, just realize and respect what it might mean to other people before you wave it around so proudly. Don't be surprised when you get dirty or apalled looks because you have a confederate flag bumper sticker or cell phone cover. (FYI: That is a general address, not directed towards anyone in particular)
 
I think the Stars and Bars is more about The South in general now. I do think you should have some respect and pay attention when you flaunt it.
 
I don't think it is so much a racist symbol as a symbol of the south, how many southerners spilled their blood for that flag over slavery or even black people in general? A small margin the flag then represented the struggle of an ill-fated nation, and while the principles it held such as slavery were terrible the flag that the southern spirit rallied around in my opinion cannot be considered an embodiment of racism.

That's my 2 cents though I'm a foreigner so I don't know if what I said makes exact sense, feel free to tell me if it doesn't :mrgreen:
 
superskippy said:
I don't think it is so much a racist symbol as a symbol of the south, how many southerners spilled their blood for that flag over slavery or even black people in general? A small margin the flag then represented the struggle of an ill-fated nation, and while the principles it held such as slavery were terrible the flag that the southern spirit rallied around in my opinion cannot be considered an embodiment of racism.

That's my 2 cents though I'm a foreigner so I don't know if what I said makes exact sense, feel free to tell me if it doesn't :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Umm... from what I got, you are saying it represents their spirit, because they spilled their blood to keep black enslaved? Something doesn't sound right in that...I must have misinterpreted. Could you clarify? Thx
 
Having relatives that fought in the civil war, as well as living in the capital of the the confederacy, I believe that the stars and bars is an important part of US history, as well as a respected part of my personal history. I do not publically associate symbol with myself, as the majority of people in the US are ignorant of it's meaning and create very negative stereotypes about the people who display it.

I do acknowledge that many people have used the stars and bars as a symbol of hate and display it in order to put forth their own agendas... many having no association with the south or confederacy at all.
 
As I have said before, it is ignorant to call people ignorant because the Confederate flag means something different to their culture, history and all, than your own culture.
 
The two subjects Americans are the worst at are,American history & Geography.To the utter embarassment of many Americans.
The reasons the Civil War was fought have been, prettyied up you might say.It was not at first fought to free anyone. Lincoln would have maintained slavery if it would have prevented the war.
The South believed that the Union was like a volountary club that you joined and could, quit ! The North believed in a Federal Union,now and forever.
The official position of Lincold was that a criminal cabal had taken over several states and was plotting to over throw the Republic ! He called upon the people for troops, "to suppress the Insurrection ".Lincoln never admitted that any state had left the Union.
Now to an important point.Most southerners did not own slaves. Most of the Troops in the Confederate army didn't own slaves. They fought because the Federal govt. had marched into their states to forcefuly restore the Union !
Freeing the slaves was an act of military strategy to undermine the Confederacy.The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in areas that were in Rebellion.In Maryland,west Virginia, and parts of Tennesse that had stayed loyal to the Republic. Slavery was still legal.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom