Confederate Flag

[HTColeman]

I am not claiming Lincoln as some holy saviour. But you must take into account why the South seceded. One of the major reasons was their fear that Lincoln would abolish slavery, meaning they thought slavery was acceptable. The south tooka pre-emptive action to save slavery, whether Lincoln actually planned to abolish it or not.

 

[JOHNYJ]

As I recall, there were maybe 36 states in the Union. That means 22 senators represented the south. They probably had a good number of members of the House. How was Lincold going to get the abolition of Slavery through the Conress? Also the south by reason of Seniority.Probably controled important posts in both bodies. The Insurrection was probably pre-emptive ,yes. Also a mistake.

 

[HTColeman]

How was Lincold going to get the abolition of Slavery through the Conress?

He did, didn't he?

 

[Stherngntlmn]

Whether the civil war happened or not, slavery would have died off in the next 25 years, but that's conjecture, and personal opinion from reading books on the subject. Although I support the rights of state governments, I understand Lincoln's acts of aggression towards the south and his goal of preserving the Union. My only real qualm with the civil war's series of events was Major General William Tecumseh Sherman's "total warfare". He marched his union regimines through the south, destroying everything in sight, allowing his soldiers to rape and pilledge the countryside, slaughter young children, and eventually burning atlanta to the ground. After such horrific acts, it's completely understandable that parts of the south live in resentment of the yankee states to this day, and wave those stars and bars specifically as a reminder of that past and a symbol of the rebellious spirit the yankees failed to destroy in this country despite their best efforts.

 

[HTColeman]

After such horrific acts, it's completely understandable that parts of the south live in resentment of the yankee states to this day, and wave those stars and bars specifically as a reminder of that past and a symbol of the rebellious spirit the yankees failed to destroy in this country despite their best efforts.

Considering the average person doesn't know this much about the civil war, which I commend your educational pursuits, I doubt this is why they wave the flag.

 

[Stherngntlmn]

Considering the average person doesn't know this much about the civil war, which I commend your educational pursuits, I doubt this is why they wave the flag.

I don't know where you're from, but in my state, at least a year of civil war education is a required US history class in public school, besides.. you'd be surprised how many of those stories, and how much resent ment is passed down through families.

I'm actually friends with several black people that have such resentment, one of which has the stars and bars painted on his truck.

 

[HTColeman]

I don't know where you're from, but in my state, at least a year of civil war education is a required US history class in public school, besides.. you'd be surprised how many of those stories, and how much resent ment is passed down through families.

Well of course, you live in Richmond, VA. I live in Texas we spend about, oh, 2 weeks on the civil war. Keep in mind though we are on a quarterly schedule so core classes are only half a year long.

The gruesome stories of the north aren't in our textbooks, we don't have time to go over all of that. And I wouldn't really trust the resentment that is passed down through families, it is typically pretty bias. But you guys have a class called Civil War?

I'm actually friends with several black people that have such resentment, one of which has the stars and bars painted on his truck.

:shock: I think I would be correct in saying that this doesn't represent the average African-American point of view towards the C-flag.

 

[Stherngntlmn]

But you guys have a class called Civil War?

I don't know if it's called "Civil War". It was a middle school social studies course that spent the entire year on the civil war.

:shock: I think I would be correct in saying that this doesn't represent the average African-American point of view towards the C-flag.

That's correct, but nonetheless the view is there in some.

 

[SouthernBelle]

It is truly sad that people who live in this country don't even know the basics of US history. The war had many causes, least of them were slavery. The flag is a symbol of our southern heritage and culture. I makes me so angry to see ignorant people complaining about how racist it is. That is my culture and heritage. If you don't like it that is your problem not mine. It is not my job to make everyone happy, nor should I have to try to hide my heritage because you don't like it. I find it offensive that the United State Government allowed Martin Luther King JR's birthday to have a holiday, yet Robert E Lee does not. He was one of the greatest Generals in this countries history. But to celebrate a man who preached non violence, but yet it followed him where every he went. A Christian pastor who cheated on his wife with prostitutes. A man who forced his way into white neighborhoods just to cause problems in the north.

So when I see that flag, I have a sense of pride that just fills me up, even if minorities don't like it, or even know that it is called the Naval Jack. But that doesn't mean they have the right to dictate what can be displayed in public. I am offended by the clinched fist of the black panthers, but that doesn't mean I should demand that anything I, as a white woman, am offended by should be removed.

 

[C.J.]

It is truly sad that people who live in this country don't even know the basics of US history. The war had many causes, least of them were slavery. The flag is a symbol of our southern heritage and culture. I makes me so angry to see ignorant people complaining about how racist it is. That is my culture and heritage. If you don't like it that is your problem not mine. It is not my job to make everyone happy, nor should I have to try to hide my heritage because you don't like it. I find it offensive that the United State Government allowed Martin Luther King JR's birthday to have a holiday, yet Robert E Lee does not. He was one of the greatest Generals in this countries history. But to celebrate a man who preached non violence, but yet it followed him where every he went. A Christian pastor who cheated on his wife with prostitutes. A man who forced his way into white neighborhoods just to cause problems in the north.

So when I see that flag, I have a sense of pride that just fills me up, even if minorities don't like it, or even know that it is called the Naval Jack. But that doesn't mean they have the right to dictate what can be displayed in public. I am offended by the clinched fist of the black panthers, but that doesn't mean I should demand that anything I, as a white woman, am offended by should be removed.

"It's called the Naval Jack"? Actually you are refering to the Confederate Naval Jack, not "The Naval Jack," and it is not the same as the Confederate battle flag, although some varients were used as battle flags.

All one really needs to say is that the Confederate flag represents resistance to federal authority beyond its constitutional limits, not a symbol of hatred. This however will not change the minds of those who see it as a symbol of hatred, and it will not educate those who use it as a symbol of hatred.

 

[HTColeman]

It is truly sad that people who live in this country don't even know the basics of US history. The war had many causes, least of them were slavery. The flag is a symbol of our southern heritage and culture. I makes me so angry to see ignorant people complaining about how racist it is. That is my culture and heritage.

Actually, it makes you seem ignorant that others may view the flag differently than you. You cannot call them ignorant simply because they do not agree with your view. I am from the south, as well as my family, however it does not represent my heritage and culture. To my heritage and culture, it represents slavery.

If you don't like it that is your problem not mine. It is not my job to make everyone happy, nor should I have to try to hide my heritage because you don't like it. I find it offensive that the United State Government allowed Martin Luther King JR's birthday to have a holiday, yet Robert E Lee does not. He was one of the greatest Generals in this countries history. But to celebrate a man who preached non violence, but yet it followed him where every he went. A Christian pastor who cheated on his wife with prostitutes.

False accusations on MLK, you obviously don't respect him. Robert E. Lee rebelled against the U.S. to protect "southern heritage". Martin Luther King sought equality for all, and civil rights for blacks, does that offend you? Violenced followed him because ignorant people did not want us to vote, learn, and viewed as equal citizens. Their ignorance, does not make him a hypocrite.

A man who forced his way into white neighborhoods just to cause problems in the north.

JUST TO CAUSE PROBLEMS?! The problem was that those in the white neighborhoods didn't feel blacks were good enough to be their neighbors! MLK fought against that problem, and America is a much better place because of it.

So when I see that flag, I have a sense of pride that just fills me up, even if minorities don't like it, or even know that it is called the Naval Jack. But that doesn't mean they have the right to dictate what can be displayed in public. I am offended by the clinched fist of the black panthers, but that doesn't mean I should demand that anything I, as a white woman, am offended by should be removed.

You disregard others feelings and their heritage, and thereby, disrespect "them". It is your disrespect that offends me, not your view of the flag. I am not advocating that it can't be shown, but it should not be held above capitol buildings and such. Those buildings are supposed to be respectful of everyone, and representative of everyone. You, however, have every right to hang the flag up on your porch.

 

[Datamonkee]

Ahh, the every popular use of MLK, Jr. Here he is, the civil rights savior :

http://www.martinlutherking.org/helms.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Martin_Luther_King,_Jr./Facts

"The bureau distributed reports regarding King's extramarital sexual affairs to the executive branch, friendly reporters, potential coalition partners and funding sources of the SCLC, and King's family. "

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/epstein9.html

"Myth #1: King wanted only equal rights, not special privileges and would have opposed affirmative action, quotas, reparations, and the other policies pursued by today’s civil rights leadership.

This is probably the most repeated myth about King. Writing on National Review Online, There Heritage Foundation’s Matthew Spalding wrote a piece entitled "Martin Luther King’s Conservative Mind," where he wrote, "An agenda that advocates quotas, counting by race and set-asides takes us away from King's vision."

The problem with this view is that King openly advocated quotas and racial set-asides. He wrote that the "Negro today is not struggling for some abstract, vague rights, but for concrete improvement in his way of life." When equal opportunity laws failed to achieve this, King looked for other ways. In his book Where Do We Go From Here, he suggested that "A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for him, to equip him to compete on a just and equal basis." To do this he expressed support for quotas. In a 1968 Playboy interview, he said, "If a city has a 30% Negro population, then it is logical to assume that Negroes should have at least 30% of the jobs in any particular company, and jobs in all categories rather than only in menial areas." King was more than just talk in this regard. Working through his Operation Breadbasket, King threatened boycotts of businesses that did not hire blacks in proportion to their population. "

 

[aquapub]

The Confederate flag is a historic military battle flag. To the South, it represents a legacy that involves much more than the Civil War and by far preceeds it.

It is simplisticly a symbol of evil and hate to oversensitive blacks and to the irrational liberal hysterics who pamper them.

So what?

When I see evil, hateful, or racist symbols against whites, I deal with it and write the bearer off as a retard. I don't ask the govt. to violate their right to free speech just so that I don't have to deal with dissent against my kind. People need to grow a spine. Symbols force nothing on anyone. All this upheaval over such a trivial non-issue is self-created and the whiners moaning about this flag are the ones who need to change.

 

[HTColeman]

Ahh, the every popular use of MLK, Jr. Here he is, the civil rights savior :

http://www.martinlutherking.org/helms.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Martin_Luther_King,_Jr./Facts

"The bureau distributed reports regarding King's extramarital sexual affairs to the executive branch, friendly reporters, potential coalition partners and funding sources of the SCLC, and King's family. "

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/epstein9.html

"Myth #1: King wanted only equal rights, not special privileges and would have opposed affirmative action, quotas, reparations, and the other policies pursued by today’s civil rights leadership.

This is probably the most repeated myth about King. Writing on National Review Online, There Heritage Foundation’s Matthew Spalding wrote a piece entitled "Martin Luther King’s Conservative Mind," where he wrote, "An agenda that advocates quotas, counting by race and set-asides takes us away from King's vision."

The problem with this view is that King openly advocated quotas and racial set-asides. He wrote that the "Negro today is not struggling for some abstract, vague rights, but for concrete improvement in his way of life." When equal opportunity laws failed to achieve this, King looked for other ways. In his book Where Do We Go From Here, he suggested that "A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for him, to equip him to compete on a just and equal basis." To do this he expressed support for quotas. In a 1968 Playboy interview, he said, "If a city has a 30% Negro population, then it is logical to assume that Negroes should have at least 30% of the jobs in any particular company, and jobs in all categories rather than only in menial areas." King was more than just talk in this regard. Working through his Operation Breadbasket, King threatened boycotts of businesses that did not hire blacks in proportion to their population. "

On your first sight, please, spare me. Accuse the man of being a communist, that is so original. I am sure MLK was trying to take over the country and becoming a dictator.

Your second sight, read the entire article;

"Later, the focus of the bureau's investigations shifted to "discrediting" King through revelations regarding his private life. The bureau distributed reports regarding King's extramarital sexual affairs to the executive branch, friendly reporters, potential coalition partners and funding sources of the SCLC, and King's family. The Bureau also sent anonymous letters to King threatening to reveal information if he didn't cease his civil rights work. Finally, the Bureau's investigation shifted away from King's personal life to intelligence and counterintelligence work on the direction of the SCLC and the "racial" movement."

The bureau did not support civil rights, so they tried to bash his reputation by distributing accusations about his personal life.

On your third sight, it is primarily a sight saying that the conservatives didn't support equal rights for blacks, so they shouldn't support MLK now. That makes you look great:roll:. Conservatives in the 50s and 60s were deeply opposed to blacks having the right to vote and be treated the same way as white citizens, that does not make MLK bad, it makes those type of Conservatives ignorant. See the intro I quoted from the sight below;

"This is amazing because during the 50s and 60s, the Right almost unanimously opposed the civil rights movement. Contrary to the claims of many neocons, the opposition was not limited to the John Birch Society and southern conservatives. It was made by politicians like Ronald Reagan and Barry Goldwater, and in the pages of Modern Age, Human Events, National Review, and the Freeman."


You see, while you nitpick to find the bad things about MLK, I see the great things he did for our country. Nobody has a perfect life, are you perfect. Even if MLK did cheat on is wife occasionally, that does not make him a bad person. Think of all of the things that you have done wrong, are you a bad person?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Martin_Luther_King,_Jr./Facts
"He is regarded as one of the greatest leaders and heroes in America's history, and in the modern history of nonviolence."

"King was an adherent of the philosophies of nonviolent civil disobedience used successfully in India by Mohandas Gandhi, and he applied this philosophy to the protests organised by the SCLC. King correctly identified that organised, non-violent protest against the racist system of Southern separation known as Jim Crow, when violently attacked by racist authorities and covered extensively by the media, would create a wave of pro-Civil Rights public opinion, and this was the key relationship which brought Civil Rights to the forefront of American politics in the early 1960s."

"He organized and led marches for the right to vote, desegregation, fair hiring, and other basic civil rights. Most of these rights were later successfully enacted into United States law with the passage of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act of 1965."

"On October 14, 1964, King became the youngest recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, which was awarded to him for leading non-violent resistance to end racial prejudice in the United States."

These are a few quotes from the site you put up.

 

[HTColeman]

The Confederate flag is a historic military battle flag. To the South, it represents a legacy that involves much more than the Civil War and by far preceeds it.

Once again, that is what it means to YOUR southern heritage, not the blacks southern heritage.

It is simplisticly a symbol of evil and hate to oversensitive blacks and to the irrational liberal hysterics who pamper them.

Open your mind, some cultures are different than your own.

When I see evil, hateful, or racist symbols against whites, I deal with it and write the bearer off as a retard. I don't ask the govt. to violate their right to free speech just so that I don't have to deal with dissent against my kind. People need to grow a spine. Symbols force nothing on anyone. All this upheaval over such a trivial non-issue is self-created and the whiners moaning about this flag are the ones who need to change.

Once again, I, for one, do not ask for a law to ban the confederate flag. I am asking that you and people like you, don't criticize me because I see the flag in a darker light.

 

[Datamonkee]

On your first sight, please, spare me. Accuse the man of being a communist, that is so original. I am sure MLK was trying to take over the country and becoming a dictator.

Your second sight, read the entire article;

"Later, the focus of the bureau's investigations shifted to "discrediting" King through revelations regarding his private life. The bureau distributed reports regarding King's extramarital sexual affairs to the executive branch, friendly reporters, potential coalition partners and funding sources of the SCLC, and King's family. The Bureau also sent anonymous letters to King threatening to reveal information if he didn't cease his civil rights work. Finally, the Bureau's investigation shifted away from King's personal life to intelligence and counterintelligence work on the direction of the SCLC and the "racial" movement."

The bureau did not support civil rights, so they tried to bash his reputation by distributing accusations about his personal life.

On your third sight, it is primarily a sight saying that the conservatives didn't support equal rights for blacks, so they shouldn't support MLK now. That makes you look great:roll:. Conservatives in the 50s and 60s were deeply opposed to blacks having the right to vote and be treated the same way as white citizens, that does not make MLK bad, it makes those type of Conservatives ignorant. See the intro I quoted from the sight below;

"This is amazing because during the 50s and 60s, the Right almost unanimously opposed the civil rights movement. Contrary to the claims of many neocons, the opposition was not limited to the John Birch Society and southern conservatives. It was made by politicians like Ronald Reagan and Barry Goldwater, and in the pages of Modern Age, Human Events, National Review, and the Freeman."


You see, while you nitpick to find the bad things about MLK, I see the great things he did for our country. Nobody has a perfect life, are you perfect. Even if MLK did cheat on is wife occasionally, that does not make him a bad person. Think of all of the things that you have done wrong, are you a bad person?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Martin_Luther_King,_Jr./Facts
"He is regarded as one of the greatest leaders and heroes in America's history, and in the modern history of nonviolence."

"King was an adherent of the philosophies of nonviolent civil disobedience used successfully in India by Mohandas Gandhi, and he applied this philosophy to the protests organised by the SCLC. King correctly identified that organised, non-violent protest against the racist system of Southern separation known as Jim Crow, when violently attacked by racist authorities and covered extensively by the media, would create a wave of pro-Civil Rights public opinion, and this was the key relationship which brought Civil Rights to the forefront of American politics in the early 1960s."

"He organized and led marches for the right to vote, desegregation, fair hiring, and other basic civil rights. Most of these rights were later successfully enacted into United States law with the passage of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act of 1965."

"On October 14, 1964, King became the youngest recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, which was awarded to him for leading non-violent resistance to end racial prejudice in the United States."

These are a few quotes from the site you put up.

Ah yes, let's ignore the bad and just focus on the good. There was a man voted Time Life's Man of the Year. He single handedly took his country from a poor, backwards low income nation to a driving force in world economics. He brought peace initially to his citizens, he pushed industry, gave his people a sense of national pride and brought them into modern day. Lets forget the people he murdered, and the war he started. It's not important when focusing on the good. Let's remember the all the good that Hitler did.
I never claimed to be perfect. I never expected people to think MLK should be perfect. He was a proven communist sympathizer, and started a socialist party of his own. He was unfaithful to his wife. And yet now, he's considered a Saint. An example of what people of color should emulate. To want a government system that gives equal shares of things to everyone, regardless of whether or not they work for it, or have some how earned it. He demanded reperations for slavery, and he WASN'T even born into slavery. If he was so concerned about reparations, I'm sure someone would have bought him a plane ticket the hell back to Africa where he could have all the special treatment he could handle. He wanted a free meal ticket based on the plight of a people he knew nothing about, short of what was sensationalized by the media and hyped up books like Uncle Tom's Cabin.

 

[HTColeman]

Ah yes, let's ignore the bad and just focus on the good. There was a man voted Time Life's Man of the Year. He single handedly took his country from a poor, backwards low income nation to a driving force in world economics. He brought peace initially to his citizens, he pushed industry, gave his people a sense of national pride and brought them into modern day. Lets forget the people he murdered, and the war he started. It's not important when focusing on the good. Let's remember the all the good that Hitler did.

Lets compare,

Hitler
Good-improved German economy, voted Time Life's Man of the Year
Bad- Started a WW, killed 6 million people in concentration camps, fostered hatred for "unclean" people, disallusioned a nation

MLK
Good- Reformed social relationships between blacks and whites in America, largely responsible for the repeal of Jim Crow laws, changed the mindset of many white Americans about equality
Bad-socialized with communists, accused (not verified) of adultery.

Yeah, I'm just ignoring all of the bad things MLK did to this country...

I never claimed to be perfect. I never expected people to think MLK should be perfect. He was a proven communist sympathizer, and started a socialist party of his own. He was unfaithful to his wife. And yet now, he's considered a Saint. An example of what people of color should emulate.

Emulate? He is merely a person to be admired, for his affect on our country. His words and courage about speaking out against injustice are respected, not that "people of color" live to be like MLK.

To want a government system that gives equal shares of things to everyone, regardless of whether or not they work for it, or have some how earned it. He demanded reperations for slavery, and he WASN'T even born into slavery. If he was so concerned about reparations, I'm sure someone would have bought him a plane ticket the hell back to Africa where he could have all the special treatment he could handle. He wanted a free meal ticket based on the plight of a people he knew nothing about, short of what was sensationalized by the media and hyped up books like Uncle Tom's Cabin.

My grandmother grew up in a sharecropping family, basically slavery. As he was my grandmothers age, his grandparents were slaves. Do the math, slavery wasn't that long ago. Therefore he, and most blacks, know plenty about the plight of our people in times past. Just because all you know about slavery can be found in the skeptical websites trying to justify the lifestyle, don't think that MLK didn't know anything about slavery.

 

[Datamonkee]

"My grandmother grew up in a sharecropping family, basically slavery."

Oi. Basically slavery my hindquarters.
Sharecropper : A tenant farmer who gives a share of the crops raised to the landlord in lieu of rent.
Slave : One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.

They are nothing alike. One, you are a person who is paying for a service with the things you grow. The other, you are property and not even considered human. They are 'basically' nothing alike.:doh Unless your grandmother was born in the mid 1800's, the only knowledge she would have of slavery is second hand, not experience. That's like saying that since I was in Desert Storm, I know what it was like in Vietnam. Apples and Oranges.
I'm not saying that he didn't do good things. I'm just saying that he's not the saint that everyone portrays him as.
I'm also saying that the Confederate Flag does not, and should not stand for slavery. If it does, it is because of the incorrect version of history taught in our schools. It was a symbol of states rights and freedom from a government that tried to usurp those rights under the flag of "morality" and "equality". The northern states were not driven by altruism, or by the pain in the eyes of the slaves they saw. Most of them never even saw a slave. There were extremist that crossed state lines to "free" slaves, and committed murder and vandalism in the process. The abolitionist movement may have had a few people with genuine heart, but it was politically motivated and financed by northern industry to keep the power in the government. The US Government had given northern industries thousands of dollars (which would amount to the millions our government gave airlines to survive) in aid to get started, and yet no money OR help was given the southern farmers. Read the articles of seccession by South Carolina and Texas. Massachusetts had laws on the books that prohibited Africans from living there altogether once freed. The North wanted the slaves freed, but didn't offer solutions to their living situation afterwards. So much for equality. So much for morality. "We'll set you free, but after that, buddy, you are on your own!"
Pick up the book "The South was Right" and see the other side of the story for once. Not the media and politically twisted version of history that is now taught by an over sensitive curriculum.

 

[rudy0908]

The Confederate flag is a historic military battle flag. To the South, it represents a legacy that involves much more than the Civil War and by far preceeds it.

The White South, you mean.

When I see evil, hateful, or racist symbols against whites, I deal with it and write the bearer off as a retard. I don't ask the govt. to violate their right to free speech just so that I don't have to deal with dissent against my kind. People need to grow a spine. Symbols force nothing on anyone. All this upheaval over such a trivial non-issue is self-created and the whiners moaning about this flag are the ones who need to change.

I honestly can't think of one symbol like this. Even if there are some, its not the same. If we had been in slavery and a flag represented the government fighting to keep us slaves, I would certainly be offended by its display. And rightly so. As whites, we don't realize the suffering and humiliation represented by that flag.

As for General Lee, while a great fighting man, he did ultimately turn against his country in favor of his state. Thus he is a traitor and deserves no national honors from the nation he fought to divide.

 

[HTColeman]

"My grandmother grew up in a sharecropping family, basically slavery."

Oi. Basically slavery my hindquarters.
Sharecropper : A tenant farmer who gives a share of the crops raised to the landlord in lieu of rent.
Slave : One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.

They are nothing alike. One, you are a person who is paying for a service with the things you grow. The other, you are property and not even considered human. They are 'basically' nothing alike.:doh Unless your grandmother was born in the mid 1800's, the only knowledge she would have of slavery is second hand, not experience. That's like saying that since I was in Desert Storm, I know what it was like in Vietnam. Apples and Oranges.

Look at what it actually was, not the definition;
http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/a_f/brown/sharecropping.htm

"A practice that emerged following the emancipation of African-American slaves, sharecropping came to define the method of land lease that would eventually become a new form of slavery. Without land of their own, many blacks were drawn into schemes where they worked a portion of the land owned by whites for a share of the profit from the crops. They would get all the seeds, food, and equipment they needed from the company store, which allowed them to run a tab throughout the year and to settle up once the crops, usually cotton, were gathered. When accounting time came, the black farmer was always a few dollars short of what he owed the landowner, so he invariably began the new year with a deficit. As that deficit grew, he found it impossible to escape from his situation by legal means. The hard, backbreaking work led to stooped, physically destroyed, and mentally blighted black people who could seldom envision escape for themselves or their children; their lives were an endless round of poor diet, fickle weather, and the unbeatable figures at the company store. Those with courage to match their imaginations escaped under cover of darkness to the North, that fabled land of opportunity."

So, because I didn't experience it, slavery means nothing? You did not experience the American Revolution or "taxation without representation", does the american flag mean nothing to you? You also did not experience the civil war and states rights, why does it mean so much to you?

I'm not saying that he didn't do good things. I'm just saying that he's not the saint that everyone portrays him as.

No, you implied that he was a hypocrite, so his words meant nothing. No one is a saint, Ghandi was not a saint.

I'm also saying that the Confederate Flag does not, and should not stand for slavery. If it does, it is because of the incorrect version of history taught in our schools. It was a symbol of states rights and freedom from a government that tried to usurp those rights under the flag of "morality" and "equality". The northern states were not driven by altruism, or by the pain in the eyes of the slaves they saw. Most of them never even saw a slave. There were extremist that crossed state lines to "free" slaves, and committed murder and vandalism in the process. The abolitionist movement may have had a few people with genuine heart, but it was politically motivated and financed by northern industry to keep the power in the government. The US Government had given northern industries thousands of dollars (which would amount to the millions our government gave airlines to survive) in aid to get started, and yet no money OR help was given the southern farmers. Read the articles of seccession by South Carolina and Texas. Massachusetts had laws on the books that prohibited Africans from living there altogether once freed. The North wanted the slaves freed, but didn't offer solutions to their living situation afterwards. So much for equality. So much for morality. "We'll set you free, but after that, buddy, you are on your own!"
Pick up the book "The South was Right" and see the other side of the story for once. Not the media and politically twisted version of history that is now taught by an over sensitive curriculum.

Who is saying that the North was the savior? They had their equality issues as well. As far as your book, I would say the authors are rather bias, growing up in Louisiana, a very rural southern state. I have seen several varying reviews on this book, some say it is a different side, some say the facts are distorted and sometimes falsefied, a few more said the view point was pretty bias. I say all this to say that just because that book agrees with you doesn't make it fact. Both sides are bias not just the known version, your version is subject to equal bias as well.

You and others have said that it is a symbol of southern heritage, you are correct. However, southern heritage is different to many people. Your southern heritage is one of states rights, etc. My southern heritage is one of slavery. So to me, it represents slavery, and it is not oversensitive, it is logical.

 

[HTColeman]

Correction, the authors of "The South was Right" grew up in Mississippi, not Louisiana, but still equal bias.

 

[Arch Enemy]

It is truly sad that people who live in this country don't even know the basics of US history. The war had many causes, least of them were slavery. The flag is a symbol of our southern heritage and culture. I makes me so angry to see ignorant people complaining about how racist it is. That is my culture and heritage. If you don't like it that is your problem not mine. It is not my job to make everyone happy, nor should I have to try to hide my heritage because you don't like it. I find it offensive that the United State Government allowed Martin Luther King JR's birthday to have a holiday, yet Robert E Lee does not. He was one of the greatest Generals in this countries history. But to celebrate a man who preached non violence, but yet it followed him where every he went. A Christian pastor who cheated on his wife with prostitutes. A man who forced his way into white neighborhoods just to cause problems in the north.

So when I see that flag, I have a sense of pride that just fills me up, even if minorities don't like it, or even know that it is called the Naval Jack. But that doesn't mean they have the right to dictate what can be displayed in public. I am offended by the clinched fist of the black panthers, but that doesn't mean I should demand that anything I, as a white woman, am offended by should be removed.

Guys! Honestly, why don't we celebrate a guy who took joy in killing fellow Americans. That's stupid, I know you've got a soft-spot for Robert E. Lee... but sorry to tell you, I don't celebrate those who kill their own countrymen just because they have a different perspective on life.

 

[Datamonkee]

"As for General Lee, while a great fighting man, he did ultimately turn against his country in favor of his state. Thus he is a traitor and deserves no national honors from the nation he fought to divide." Quoted from rudy0908

Spoken like someone who has never read a book about Gen. Robert E. Lee. Here's an education for you on one of the greatest generals to ever live.

"With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword....." Lee in a letter to his sister, April 20, 1861

http://www.civilwarhome.com/leebio.htm

"So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that Slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interest of the South. So fully am I satisfied of this that I would have cheerfully lost all that I have lost by the war, and have suffered all that I have suffered to have this object attained."

"They do not know what they say. If it came to a conflict of arms, the war will last at least four years. Northern politicians will not appreciate the determination and pluck of the South, and Southern politicians do not appreciate the numbers, resources, and patient perseverance of the North. Both sides forget that we are all Americans. I foresee that our country will pass through a terrible ordeal, a necessary expiation, perhaps, for our national sins."

"Never do a wrong thing to make a friend or keep one."

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Lee on Slavery.htm

Quoted directly from the memoirs of one of Robert E. Lee's slaves.
" I was raised by one of the greatest men in the world. There was never one born of a woman greater than Gen. Robert E. Lee, according to my judgment. All of his servants were set free ten years before the war, but all remained on the plantation until after the surrender."


http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/LettersAndrewHunter.htm

Here is his stance on the slaves that were asking to join the Confederate Army.

This was a man of honor. This was one of the greatest Americans to have lived.

 

[HTColeman]

Quoted directly from the memoirs of one of Robert E. Lee's slaves.
" I was raised by one of the greatest men in the world. There was never one born of a woman greater than Gen. Robert E. Lee, according to my judgment. All of his servants were set free ten years before the war, but all remained on the plantation until after the surrender."

Where was this quoted from, as in a source, I couldn't find it in your sources. I find it difficult to believe this is from a slave, as 99.9% of slaves could not read or write, much less write so eloquently and grammatically correct.

 

[rudy0908]

"As for General Lee, while a great fighting man, he did ultimately turn against his country in favor of his state. Thus he is a traitor and deserves no national honors from the nation he fought to divide." Quoted from rudy0908

Spoken like someone who has never read a book about Gen. Robert E. Lee. Here's an education for you on one of the greatest generals to ever live.

"With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword....." Lee in a letter to his sister, April 20, 1861

http://www.civilwarhome.com/leebio.htm

"So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that Slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interest of the South. So fully am I satisfied of this that I would have cheerfully lost all that I have lost by the war, and have suffered all that I have suffered to have this object attained."

"They do not know what they say. If it came to a conflict of arms, the war will last at least four years. Northern politicians will not appreciate the determination and pluck of the South, and Southern politicians do not appreciate the numbers, resources, and patient perseverance of the North. Both sides forget that we are all Americans. I foresee that our country will pass through a terrible ordeal, a necessary expiation, perhaps, for our national sins."

"Never do a wrong thing to make a friend or keep one."

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Lee on Slavery.htm

Quoted directly from the memoirs of one of Robert E. Lee's slaves.
" I was raised by one of the greatest men in the world. There was never one born of a woman greater than Gen. Robert E. Lee, according to my judgment. All of his servants were set free ten years before the war, but all remained on the plantation until after the surrender."


http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/LettersAndrewHunter.htm

Here is his stance on the slaves that were asking to join the Confederate Army.

This was a man of honor. This was one of the greatest Americans to have lived.

I know that he was anti-slavery. I know he didn't want to fight the Union. I like him personally. But the fact of the matter is that he did fight against the President of the United States of America, and for that I cannot respect or honor him.