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Confederate Flag

Datamonkee, I enjoyed your rant, and I thank you for it. I have always been a fascinated student of the Civil War. It is hard to grow up in the area which I did and not be interested in it. Armies marched and fought through my backyard, and I am surrounded by signs of the war (both modern and historical). I, like Datamonkee, believe there was far more to the war than the issue of slavery and in fact I believe slavery was the Civil War's equivalent of WMD's - a convenient popular excuse for a war that the politicians wanted for entirely different reasons. One of the simplest ways of putting it is this - would you fight and die for Rush Limbaugh's right to own a private jet? The very vast majority (over 95%) of southerners who fought in the war did not own slaves, and had no prospects of ever owning slaves. Slaves were an expensive luxury item owned only by the wealthy. Why would one million men be motivated to fight in a war to secure other people's property?

Either the colonies had no right to seccede from Britain, or the South had a right to seccede from the Union. In both cases the local governments sought to sever the ties with the parent government over economic reasons. Either the Declaration of Independence applies to all people in all times, or it is a farcical document.

One more Civil War gripe - the name itself. A civil war is one in which two (or more) factions are vying for control of the central government. The Confederacy never had any aim of conquering the government of the U.S. They simply wanted to form their own government.

I personally do not and would not fly a Confederate flag. I am an American, and while as a southerner I have pride in my ancestors who served in the Confederacy I myself am not a Confederate nor do I owe any allegiance to it. I do however defend the rights of those who want to fly it on private property as an expression of free speech. I see no reason to fly it over a public place, unless that place is specifically memorializing the Confederacy (cemeteries, monuments, etc...) The war is long over, and while I love to continue to debate it I see no reason to restart it.
 
C.J. said:
How many years did the U.S. flag fly over slavery, both prior to the Confederate flags use and after? Why not the same feelings? I would have thought most resentment would have been due to how the Confederate flag was used to intimidate, instill fear, and breed hate after the war.
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A little over 200 years, however there is a great difference between the U.S. and the Confederate. The Confederate was prominent only during a time of slavery and oppression for the blacks. The U.S. was prominent before slavery, during slavery, and after slavery. It was also prominent when the U.S. gave blacks the right to vote, equal housing and employment, etc.
 
Um... weren't the South defeated over a century and a half ago, anyway?
 
I was going to reply to Datamonkees rant, but I decided not to, everybody goes on a rant every once in a while, and half the time it is not meant as a argument, persay;)

Anyway, I am not saying the civil war was only about slavery, nor am I saying that the flag represents racism. Most who fly the flag say it is a symblol of southern heritage. As I have said before, my southern heritage is a whole lot different from your southern heritage. So why call me ignorant when you know little about my southern heritage? (A general "you", not directed towards anyone in particular) I am all for states rights, somewhat, I live in TX, we still have the legal right to secede, it was part of our agreement of coming to the U.S. as a state, but as far as southern heritage, I have spoken my opinion on that.

Also, I am not advocating that C2C or anyone else should not be able to wave the Confederate flag, that is their right. But it should not be flown over gov't buildings/public places (except for museum purposes) because it does not represent everyone, and the gov't is supposed to represent the people, all of the people.
 
nefarious_plot said:
I dont feel the US Flag represnets me. I think it should be removed form public buildings.
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Oh but it does represent you, simply because you are allowed to feel as though it doesn't represent you.
 
Re: Nazi Flag

26 X World Champs said:
Good point regarding confederate flags. Down South you still see them all the time, they're not necessarily looked down upon despite representing racism.
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Wow .. that was a statement that is completely and utterly false.

26 X World Champs said:
The whacko logic re confederate flags is that it symbolizes the South. The problem is that the South that it symbolizes were slave owners and bigots and these brilliant people brutalized blacks!
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You wanna be elitist, are you kidding me with this. I didn't know slavery was just a southern issue. Do you only remember the parts of history that fit into your argument. Like your previous thought being wrong this one again follows suit. The flag you speak of is for one a battle flag. It is not a representation of the slavery. It is a representation of the men from tennesse I believe that fought in the civil war.

26 X World Champs said:
Defending the confederate flag is the same thing as defending racism and segregation.
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your on a roll time after time after time. It's not even like you try to understand the facts or the history. You just figure if you make some completely false statement that it will become truth or fact. The flag you speak of does not represent slavery. And to the best of my knowledge thereis no flag that represents slavery. There have been a number of flags that have flown over slaves. But as illinformed as you seem to be about the confederate flag you speak of. You may want to do a little more research on the topic so at least a couple things you say are accurate.
 
nefarious_plot said:
I dont feel the US Flag represnets me. I think it should be removed form public buildings.
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How bout we remove you and leave the flag. That sounds like a better trade off to me
 
Calm2Chaos said:
How bout we remove you and leave the flag. That sounds like a better trade off to me
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C2C! I demand you respond to my thread, how dare you ignore me! After all of the argueing and debates we have gone through...
 
HTColeman said:
C2C! I demand you respond to my thread, how dare you ignore me! After all of the argueing and debates we have gone through...
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What thread? I will respond immediatlyas soon as find out which thread :3oops: :shock: :3oops:

I just saw it sorry about missing that..
 
This thread, it says Datamonkee, but it is a general post.

HTColeman said:
I was going to reply to Datamonkees rant, but I decided not to, everybody goes on a rant every once in a while, and half the time it is not meant as a argument, persay;)

Anyway, I am not saying the civil war was only about slavery, nor am I saying that the flag represents racism. Most who fly the flag say it is a symblol of southern heritage. As I have said before, my southern heritage is a whole lot different from your southern heritage. So why call me ignorant when you know little about my southern heritage? (A general "you", not directed towards anyone in particular) I am all for states rights, somewhat, I live in TX, we still have the legal right to secede, it was part of our agreement of coming to the U.S. as a state, but as far as southern heritage, I have spoken my opinion on that.

Also, I am not advocating that C2C or anyone else should not be able to wave the Confederate flag, that is their right. But it should not be flown over gov't buildings/public places (except for museum purposes) because it does not represent everyone, and the gov't is supposed to represent the people, all of the people.
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HTColeman said:
I was going to reply to Datamonkees rant, but I decided not to, everybody goes on a rant every once in a while, and half the time it is not meant as a argument, persay;)

Anyway, I am not saying the civil war was only about slavery, nor am I saying that the flag represents racism. Most who fly the flag say it is a symblol of southern heritage. As I have said before, my southern heritage is a whole lot different from your southern heritage. So why call me ignorant when you know little about my southern heritage? (A general "you", not directed towards anyone in particular) I am all for states rights, somewhat, I live in TX, we still have the legal right to secede, it was part of our agreement of coming to the U.S. as a state, but as far as southern heritage, I have spoken my opinion on that.

Also, I am not advocating that C2C or anyone else should not be able to wave the Confederate flag, that is their right. But it should not be flown over gov't buildings/public places (except for museum purposes) because it does not represent everyone, and the gov't is supposed to represent the people, all of the people.
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The flag can represent a lot of things. It does not however represnt slavery, I know of no flag that does. There were literally dozens of flags that flew over slaves. To say that one represents slavery is to condemn them all. There was a lot that these flags represnted in the south. There is a lot of pride encorporated with the south and that flag. I don't feel that part of that pride is in slavery. That is not now or has it ever been there as a representation of slavery. I don't think it should be flown in public places like you said. It does not represent the US citizens of today.
 
Calm2Chaos said:
The flag can represent a lot of things. It does not however represnt slavery, I know of no flag that does. There were literally dozens of flags that flew over slaves. To say that one represents slavery is to condemn them all. There was a lot that these flags represnted in the south. There is a lot of pride encorporated with the south and that flag. I don't feel that part of that pride is in slavery. That is not now or has it ever been there as a representation of slavery. I don't think it should be flown in public places like you said. It does not represent the US citizens of today.
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There were many flags over slavery, but only one flag that stood for the region that supported America's slavery, the Confederate flag. As slavery was the mainstay in my southern heritage, why wouldn't it represent slavery for me? The South wasn't fighting for my ancestor's rights, many did not believe that my ancestors had rights to fight for, my ancestor's weren't even allowed to fight "for the south". So how could it possibly represent pride in the south for me or other blacks?
 
nefarious_plot said:
It doesnt represent me. I dont want it over my State bulidings. bulidings.
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If your an american it represents you. If you don't like that you have three choices.

1.) Move to another country

2.) Tough sh it, it represnts you any way

3.) Go back to 1 (I think you should put some consideration into 1 or 3 :lol: )
 
HTColeman said:
There were many flags over slavery, but only one flag that stood for the region that supported America's slavery, the Confederate flag. As slavery was the mainstay in my southern heritage, why wouldn't it represent slavery for me? The South wasn't fighting for my ancestor's rights, many did not believe that my ancestors had rights to fight for, my ancestor's weren't even allowed to fight "for the south". So how could it possibly represent pride in the south for me or other blacks?
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First off the flag your talking about is not the be all end all. It is in all reality not even the flag of the conderacy, It's a battle flag. The most common version you see is actually the confederate navy jack. At some point, some how this flag got adopted to mean the whole of the conderacy. You are putting a meaning to a flag that doesn't even represent what you think it does.
You have given that flag that representation. There were slaves in the north and a different flag flew over them. There is no way for me to argue your personal feelings. You have taken everything about a region and boiled it down to a single negative to represent everything. I find this a little short sighted. I have a family heritage from down south, I however was born in PA. There is a distinct pride to southerners that you don't find anywhere else. And it would seem that if your willing to make the generalization concerning the flag and it's heritage. That same generalization would have to be brought to the people that respect it. And I think your looking at a large sweeping notion to say there all racist and bigots. Many people can see the same thing and draw different meanings from it. But because your meaning is negative does not make it so for the whole.
 
Calm2Chaos said:
First off the flag your talking about is not the be all end all. It is in all reality not even the flag of the conderacy, It's a battle flag. The most common version you see is actually the confederate navy jack. At some point, some how this flag got adopted to mean the whole of the conderacy. You are putting a meaning to a flag that doesn't even represent what you think it does.
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Regardless, is that not what is commonly represented to mean "The Confederacy"?


You have given that flag that representation. There were slaves in the north and a different flag flew over them. There is no way for me to argue your personal feelings. You have taken everything about a region and boiled it down to a single negative to represent everything.I find this a little short sighted.
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I have in no way done this, the Confederate flag is not representative of the south, it is only a select few that wave the Confederate flag, not the majority. They are not personal feelings, I am only saying that your history is not the only history.

I have a family heritage from down south, I however was born in PA. There is a distinct pride to southerners that you don't find anywhere else. And it would seem that if your willing to make the generalization concerning the flag and it's heritage. That same generalization would have to be brought to the people that respect it. And I think your looking at a large sweeping notion to say there all racist and bigots. Many people can see the same thing and draw different meanings from it. But because your meaning is negative does not make it so for the whole.
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I think you have made too many ass-umptions. First you say that I am generalizing the meaning of the flag, which I have said many times that my view is what blacks tend to take as the meaning, not that it should mean that to everyone. Second, you assume that I apply this meaning to the people that wave the flag, living in TX, I know some friends that have Confederate paraphanelia, would I call racists and bigots my friends. I recognize they view the flag differently, but many do not do the same for blacks who view the flag different from them. I have applied nothing to the whole south, merely what the flag means to me and (for the most part) the African American Community. I merely debate that I am not ignorant of the civil war and the south because I hold this view.
 
HTColeman said:
Regardless, is that not what is commonly represented to mean "The Confederacy"?




I have in no way done this, the Confederate flag is not representative of the south, it is only a select few that wave the Confederate flag, not the majority. They are not personal feelings, I am only saying that your history is not the only history.



I think you have made too many ass-umptions. First you say that I am generalizing the meaning of the flag, which I have said many times that my view is what blacks tend to take as the meaning, not that it should mean that to everyone. Second, you assume that I apply this meaning to the people that wave the flag, living in TX, I know some friends that have Confederate paraphanelia, would I call racists and bigots my friends. I recognize they view the flag differently, but many do not do the same for blacks who view the flag different from them. I have applied nothing to the whole south, merely what the flag means to me and (for the most part) the African American Community. I merely debate that I am not ignorant of the civil war and the south because I hold this view.
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Ya know what HT... I think you just like to argue with me...:lol: :2razz:

I am not accusing you of being ignorant in anyway of any situation. I don't see it your way, and the fact is I don't understand the way you see it or the black community. I will never see it your way because I see it differently. (Wow that's kind of obvious isn't it.) But there is no way to argue personal feelings. People are not going to change them no matter if there right or wrong. I think its a flag that hold a lot of heritage and tradition. I believe that there are some that view that flag and long for the days of slavery. But I however think this encompasses a very small group of people. I think this flag for a lot of people represents pride and tradition. But to each his own, thats what makes America the greatest nation in the world
 
Calm2Chaos said:
Ya know what HT... I think you just like to argue with me...:lol: :2razz:

I am not accusing you of being ignorant in anyway of any situation. I don't see it your way, and the fact is I don't understand the way you see it or the black community. I will never see it your way because I see it differently. (Wow that's kind of obvious isn't it.) But there is no way to argue personal feelings. People are not going to change them no matter if there right or wrong. I think its a flag that hold a lot of heritage and tradition. I believe that there are some that view that flag and long for the days of slavery. But I however think this encompasses a very small group of people. I think this flag for a lot of people represents pride and tradition. But to each his own, thats what makes America the greatest nation in the world
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I do:mrgreen: Your one of the only people on this thread who will argue with just about anything I say, we seem to have completely different views on almost everything. And you're not a dumb***! Thats amazing, most who disagree with me, disagree because they don't know any better:cool:, but not you...

Anyway, that is what I am saying, obviously we are going to have different views because of different ancestry relating to the flag. I can't bash those who view the flag with pride in south, and they shouldn't bash me b/c the flag reminds me of slavery...but we can still argue about it, b/c it passes the time...
 
HTColeman said:
I do:mrgreen: Your one of the only people on this thread who will argue with just about anything I say, we seem to have completely different views on almost everything. And you're not a dumb***! Thats amazing, most who disagree with me, disagree because they don't know any better:cool:, but not you...

Anyway, that is what I am saying, obviously we are going to have different views because of different ancestry relating to the flag. I can't bash those who view the flag with pride in south, and they shouldn't bash me b/c the flag reminds me of slavery...but we can still argue about it, b/c it passes the time...
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I still think the world would be a better place if everyone just agreed with me:2razz:
 
HTColeman said:
There were many flags over slavery, but only one flag that stood for the region that supported America's slavery, the Confederate flag. As slavery was the mainstay in my southern heritage, why wouldn't it represent slavery for me? The South wasn't fighting for my ancestor's rights, many did not believe that my ancestors had rights to fight for, my ancestor's weren't even allowed to fight "for the south". So how could it possibly represent pride in the south for me or other blacks?
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Here's a bit of history for you to be proud of. There were many African Americans that fought for the South.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/blacks.htm
 
Calm2Chaos said:
How bout we remove you and leave the flag. That sounds like a better trade off to me
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How about we leave the Confederate flag and you stay out of the south.
 
Datamonkee said:
Here's a bit of history for you to be proud of. There were many African Americans that fought for the South.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/blacks.htm
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yeah, yeah, whatever. That wasn't the norm, towards the beginning of the war, blacks weren't aloud to fight. As it grew on, a few, in comparison, were aloud. BTW, I like the quote about the only cowardly blood in them was white, lol, j/k.
 
nefarious_plot said:
Blacks fighitng for the south was alot more common then any revisionist would admit.
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percentage, statistic, number of black troops, something?
 
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