• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Chicago prepares for a rough night as body cam footage of police killing a 13 year old boy is about to be released

SkyFox76 said:
I thought that was probably what you were talking about and I did follow the shooting itself. With him lying and planting evidence I think 20 years was pretty weak, but it's going to really be more personal in that by the time he's out his kid that wasn't even born yet, will be graduating high school. It sure beats no sentence at all.
Click to expand...
And just imagine...with no video...that cop would have gotten off totally free. Even the first trial was hung. WTF is wrong with people?
 
snakestretcher said:
A gun was later found. There was no gun in his hands at the time he was shot.
Click to expand...

A millisecond before he was shot.

He also had 19 seconds to decide to drop the weapon and comply before he got shot.

But no, he ran with the gun in his hand until he got to the hole in the fence and tossed the gun as he turned to the cop. The cop didn't see the toss and had no way of knowing as young Toledo turned back towards him with his arms beginning to raise.

And here you are claiming that you know better, and that you would have made the right choice in less than 1 second.

Damn....you're good! :rolleyes:
 
dave8383 said:
Gee, you mean if a soldier wears a vest he should still fire at the enemy? No, really!?!
Click to expand...
Well then why bring up the fact that he was wearing armor at all?

The cop is trained,
Click to expand...
Yes, he is trained to respond reasonably, and he did.

the cop had a vest on,
Click to expand...
Okay, given your statement above, I can't help but wonder: so ****ing what?

the cop is an adult,
Click to expand...
Yes, and?

the kid followed his orders and turned around, hands up, no weapon.
Click to expand...
Less than one second after having the gun in his hand and not dropping the gun in a way that the officer could have known he'd done so before starting to turn around. As far as the officer knew, Toledo still had the gun.

dave8383 said:
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how you look at his job.
Click to expand...
No, it doesn't.
 
snakestretcher said:
A gun was later found. There was no gun in his hands at the time he was shot.
Click to expand...
Prior to Toledo spinning around, there was no way for the officer to know this. Toledo had refused to drop the gun during the entire chase up to that point, and the last time his hand was visible to Stillman, there was a gun in it.

Stillman's action was reasonable, given the totality of the circumstances.
 
Grizzly Adams said:
Prior to Toledo spinning around, there was no way for the officer to know this. Toledo had refused to drop the gun during the entire chase up to that point, and the last time his hand was visible to Stillman, there was a gun in it.

Stillman's action was reasonable, given the totality of the circumstances.
Click to expand...
I'm sure a court will decide what happened.
 
Grizzly Adams said:
Less than one second after having the gun in his hand and not dropping the gun in a way that the officer could have known he'd done so before starting to turn around. As far as the officer knew, Toledo still had the gun.
Click to expand...

The special needs kid complied. The trained, armor wearing, adult, did not.
 
Metric Mouse said:
No, but their likelihood of being shot or injured by other people in the course of their duties are much higher than most any other other profession. All has to be taken in context. McDonald's workers probably don't fear powerlines like line workers do; and roofers don't face the same risks of being struck by a car as road construction workers, even if their job injury rates are similar.
Click to expand...
Injury is injury. Dead id dead.

Are you suggesting that ones injury being caused by direct action of another (malicious intent) makes it more "scary" that other injuries?
 
Gondwanaland said:
Kid had a gun in his hands less than a second before the shot was fired. The cop does not have x-ray vision. He couldn't possibly see through the kid when he dropped the gun then whirled at the cop. He had to assume the gun was still in his hand.
Click to expand...
Everyone in the history of ever has a gun in their hand a second before they drop it. Logic?

Should they all be shot .8 seconds after dropping their weapon?
 
Grizzly Adams said:
No, it isn't. That is an impossible standard. The standard for a seizure under the fourth amendment (which is what a use of force by police is) is that it be reasonable. Your standard would see a cop go to prison for shooting a person who pointed an unloaded gun at him.
Click to expand...
I dont think the officer should go to prison. I think we as a nation need to address why lethalforce as the number 1 go to when dealing with stress.
 
KevinKohler said:
Everyone in the history of ever has a gun in their hand a second before they drop it. Logic?

Should they all be shot .8 seconds after dropping their weapon?
Click to expand...

Yes
 
Grizzly Adams said:
No. It's not a problem to expect people to act reasonably instead of requiring them to guess correctly 100% of the time, risking prison or the grave if they guess wrong.
Click to expand...
And police should be expected to act reasonably instead of shooting first and asking questions later
 
sjmay said:
Yes
Click to expand...
So any perp ever, whos ever held a gun and been accosted by the police, should be shot a second after they begin to comply? Kinda of a strange way to encourage compliance, dont you think?
 
snakestretcher said:
I'm sure a court will decide what happened.
Click to expand...
Personally, I dont think this should go to court. I dont think the officer harbored ill intent. I think he was afraid, and was likely afraid from the get go, and made a fear based reaction.

I think we need to ask ourselves, why was he afraid? Chasing a gun carrying criminal a 2 am? I'd call that pretty scary, no doubt about it. I wouldn't want to do it. But then, I race cars. I battle fear for the entire lap, every lap. Anyone who has ever wiped out, rolled, or slid off track, swapped ends, etc, knows that fear. But we still do it. And we maintain control of ourselves throughout that fear.

Officers know what they are signing up for. You gonna be a cop in Chicago? Thats means at some point, your gonna see and do some scary stuff.

End of the day, this officer caught a criminal, and the criminal was in the act of complying with his orders. And out of fear of what COULD happen, he shot the criminal and killed him. He was afraid, and so ended the possibilities, the "what coulds". Criminal? I dont think so. But like the race car driver who can't handle throttling into the apex instead of breaking, this guy maybe shouldn't be a cop. And like that fearful race driver, when he wipes out as a result of him breaking out of fear, taking others with him, the body that sanctioned him owes those other drivers. They issued his license, said he was good to go. So too, does Chicago owe a debt.
 
KevinKohler said:
So any perp ever, whos ever held a gun and been accosted by the police, should be shot a second after they begin to comply? Kinda of a strange way to encourage compliance, dont you think?
Click to expand...

Nope....if they have to wait til the last second to comply....then they have to deal with the consequences.....simple as that.
 
KevinKohler said:
Personally, I dont think this should go to court. I dont think the officer harbored ill intent. I think he was afraid, and was likely afraid from the get go, and made a fear based reaction.

I think we need to ask ourselves, why was he afraid? Chasing a gun carrying criminal a 2 am? I'd call that pretty scary, no doubt about it. I wouldn't want to do it. But then, I race cars. I battle fear for the entire lap, every lap. Anyone who has ever wiped out, rolled, or slid off track, swapped ends, etc, knows that fear. But we still do it. And we maintain control of ourselves throughout that fear.

Officers know what they are signing up for. You gonna be a cop in Chicago? Thats means at some point, your gonna see and do some scary stuff.

End of the day, this officer caught a criminal, and the criminal was in the act of complying with his orders. And out of fear of what COULD happen, he shot the criminal and killed him. He was afraid, and so ended the possibilities, the "what coulds". Criminal? I dont think so. But like the race car driver who can't handle throttling into the apex instead of breaking, this guy maybe shouldn't be a cop. And like that fearful race driver, when he wipes out as a result of him breaking out of fear, taking others with him, the body that sanctioned him owes those other drivers. They issued his license, said he was good to go. So too, does Chicago owe a debt.
Click to expand...

Just wow.....tell me...do other race car drivers get to shoot at you while racing?
 
sjmay said:
Nope....if they have to wait til the last second to comply....then they have to deal with the consequences.....simple as that.
Click to expand...
Again, I feel that logic eludes you. Everyone waits till the last second to comply. There is always a last second. So, where is the threshold? Comply immediately or die? Comply within 5 seconds or die?

Thats the world you want us to live in?
 
sjmay said:
Just wow.....tell me...do other race car drivers get to shoot at you while racing?
Click to expand...
No, but a wreck kills you just as dead as anything else. The point is, we experience and endure fear. And that fear does not excuse us from making bad decisions and hurting others.
 
KevinKohler said:
Personally, I dont think this should go to court. I dont think the officer harbored ill intent. I think he was afraid, and was likely afraid from the get go, and made a fear based reaction.

I think we need to ask ourselves, why was he afraid? Chasing a gun carrying criminal a 2 am? I'd call that pretty scary, no doubt about it. I wouldn't want to do it. But then, I race cars. I battle fear for the entire lap, every lap. Anyone who has ever wiped out, rolled, or slid off track, swapped ends, etc, knows that fear. But we still do it. And we maintain control of ourselves throughout that fear.

Officers know what they are signing up for. You gonna be a cop in Chicago? Thats means at some point, your gonna see and do some scary stuff.

End of the day, this officer caught a criminal, and the criminal was in the act of complying with his orders. And out of fear of what COULD happen, he shot the criminal and killed him. He was afraid, and so ended the possibilities, the "what coulds". Criminal? I dont think so. But like the race car driver who can't handle throttling into the apex instead of breaking, this guy maybe shouldn't be a cop. And like that fearful race driver, when he wipes out as a result of him breaking out of fear, taking others with him, the body that sanctioned him owes those other drivers. They issued his license, said he was good to go. So too, does Chicago owe a debt.
Click to expand...
Speaking of racing, I thought this might be of interest...
 
KevinKohler said:
Again, I feel that logic eludes you. Everyone waits till the last second to comply. There is always a last second. So, where is the threshold? Comply immediately or die? Comply within 5 seconds or die?

Thats the world you want us to live in?
Click to expand...

That is the world we live in now....and it's perfectly reasonable, you want 100% of the risk to be on the cop for some stupid ****ing reason...you give no room to believe that the cop thought the kid might still have the gun, because the 20 seconds prior, he wasn't complying....
 
KevinKohler said:
No, but a wreck kills you just as dead as anything else. The point is, we experience and endure fear. And that fear does not excuse us from making bad decisions and hurting others.
Click to expand...

Ok, so no criticism of a 13 year old running the streets, with a gun, at 2 a.m.? And do tell Kevin, what is the police officer supposed to do when in a foot chase with an armed suspect? Allow himself to be fired on first?
 
sjmay said:
That is the world we live in now....and it's perfectly reasonable, you want 100% of the risk to be on the cop for some stupid ****ing reason...you give no room to believe that the cop thought the kid might still have the gun, because the 20 seconds prior, he wasn't complying....
Click to expand...
I'm sure the cop did think the criminal had a gun. But here's the thing...we don't operate on what we think, we operate on what we know. We don't convict on what we think, we convict on what we know. An officer THINKING someone is a clear and present danger should not be, and is not a death sentence.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom