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Can you be anti-Zionist and still be tolerant of Jews?

Chris

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Personally I see no reason why one can't be anti Zionist and pro Jewish. Zionism is a political movement, why should having a different political opinion translate into hate/intolerance?

I ask this because it increasingly seems that those who oppose Zionism are automatically written off as closet anti-Semitics.

What are your thoughts?
 

Simon W. Moon

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Would you be so kind as to provide a working definition of Zionism for this discussion?
 

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Chris said:
Personally I see no reason why one can't be anti Zionist and pro Jewish. Zionism is a political movement, why should having a different political opinion translate into hate/intolerance?

I ask this because it increasingly seems that those who oppose Zionism are automatically written off as closet anti-Semitics.

What are your thoughts?

In a sense you can, Zionism is the dream of a Jewish State, nothing more. You can be pro-Jewish but not a Zionest, to be Pro-Jewish is an odd statement though, do you mean not be Anti-Semetic, because in that case of course you can, it becomes tricky if you mean Pro-Jewish people (?), because since Zionism is the embodiment of the Jewish Dream for a state, and you will be hard pressed to find a Jew who does not support that idea, then you fall into a mixed catagory, your not an Anti-Semite which is a word people throw around to loosly, but you are not "Pro-Jewish" since you are against something that almost every Jew supports with all his/her heart.

So you can be friendly and supportive of Jewish people without supporting zionism, but you can't be a 'supporter' and not support zionism.

It's a tricky threshold.
 

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Since Zionism is the notion that gives Jewish people self determination and a place safe from persecution (other than through terrorism), I would think the challenge would be to explain why one would wish to deny rights to this one group unless one harbors prejudicial attitudes against them.

Do you are also advocate eliminating the state of France for the French, Italy for the Italians or Japan for the Japanese? Why would you wish to destroy just the Jewish homeland and not anybody else's?
 

Chris

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Ah, yes a definition

My intention was to try and leave this fairly open ended. But I'll list a few of the main anti-Zionist arguments for the sake of direction

- The Palestinian Arabs have a equal/more legitimate right to live in Israel/Palestine because they were there first
- Jews constitute a religion but not a nationality therefore a Jewish state is unjust, racist, etc
- a non-Jewish state in which the Israelis and Palestinians could peacefully co-exist is the only truly fair solution to the conflict
- a Jewish state is at odds with traditional Jewish teaching
 

Chris

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As superskippy pointed out I think a large part of the problem is that "anti-Semitic", "anti-Zionist" "pro-Zionist" etc are such poor arbitrary terms that it makes it very hard to accurately define your position. The words are thrown around so liberally by people with radically different views and opinions that they've lost what little meaning they had.
 

Chris

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Ok let me try and state my personal view without using any of those worn out terms.

I consider myself tolerant towards Jews. While Judaism means nothing to me on a spiritual level and I don't agree with all aspects of Jewish teaching, I certainly don't endorse hatred of Jews because of their beliefs. Disagreeing does not constitute hate. The following are my own personal opinions.

- I support the right of Jews to live and exist free of persecution in any nation and that hatred directed at Jews is still a significant problem that we must work hard to fight through education and awareness
- Have no problem with Jews settling Israel/Palestine or whatever you wish to call it
- have no problem with Israel being recognized as the homeland of Judaism and Jewish people
- reject that Jews are entitled by history, god, etc to the land forming Israel over any other group
- believe that the Palestinian Arabs have an equally legitimate right to live, worship, and exist within the territory
- That both groups must co-exist and inhabit the same territory
- That Israel's denial of citizenship, right of return, and dignity to the Palestinian Arabs is unacceptable
- That the existence of Israel as an exclusively Jewish state or an exclusive Muslim Arab state in its place is unacceptable
- accept Israel and Israelis as a nation and nationality (that is people living within the country and its culture) but reject that Jews (that is people adhering to the Jewish religion or claiming Jewish ethnic decent) collectively constitute a nationality
- That legitimate Arab opposition to Israel's treatment of the Arabs in the occupied territories is justified but hatred towards Israeli citizens, Jews, and Judaism is not
- agree that the Israelis must defend themselves from Arab regimes intending to harm or expel them, and that prior wars of defense were justified
- agree that Israel has a right to defend its citizens from terrorism
- that any further expansionist attempts on the part of Israel are unacceptable and that Arabs within occupied territory have a right to defend their land and property from Israeli attempts to annex it
 

Simon W. Moon

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jamesrage said:
So I see the nazi is trying to justify why he hates jews.
Godwin's Law is validated in fewer than ten posts. Not a record by any means, but disappointing all the same.

[mod mode]
Calling folks nazi (when they aren't supporters of a National Socialist Party) is unacceptable in this forum. Name calling is not debate. While in this forum and every other forum outside of The Basement, keep your posts to the topic at hand rather than you fellow DP members. Deal w/ the ideas presented. If you wish to explore your personal feelings for a fellow poster, take it to The Basement.
[/mod mode]
 

MiamiFlorida

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Chris said:
Personally I see no reason why one can't be anti Zionist and pro Jewish. Zionism is a political movement, why should having a different political opinion translate into hate/intolerance?

I ask this because it increasingly seems that those who oppose Zionism are automatically written off as closet anti-Semitics.

What are your thoughts?
I think people have different definitions of what Zionism is. Just like Americans and Europeans have different definitions of Socialism.

Zionism is defined as a worldwide movement originating in the 19th century that sought to establish a Jewish nation.

You can be anti-fundamentalist and pro-Jewish.
 

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You can be anti-fundamentalist and pro-Jewish.


I agree although there is nothing more fundamentalist than giving specific group of people a land base on a 2000+ year old prophesy.........
 

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yeah, it's a rough issue. My girlfriend is in alpha epsilon phi, a mostly jewish sorority, so needless to say, I hang out with A LOT of jews. And me and my buddy Swan are both somewhat supportive of Palestine in the Israel/Palestine debate, even if for only this reason, Israel has so much, and Palestine has so little, and yet Israel wouldn't until recently budge even the slightest ****ing bit.
And once I got drunk and mentioned this to these girls, and all of a sudden it was like I had just said "I like Hitler, and he should've finished you all off", which don't get me wrong, I've probably said something along those lines to several of my jewish friends (always in jest, no PC police neccisary), but here I just presented a serious political argument, and they took it as anti-semitism. It seems as if a lot of jews act in a way that a lot of Americans act, that somehow criticising a government is criticising the people, like if you criticize Bush, then a lot of people consider you not patriotic and some actually think you hate America, and likewise if you criticize Israel, a bunch of jews all of a sudden think you're anti-semetic.

I personally think if they want it so bad, they should get it, but I think the same goes for Palestine, so I think they're on the right track and they should just stop being dicks about the whole issue.
 

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Every Israeli is zionist in some sense of the word, because they all live here and support their own state. Zionism is the dream for a Jewish State and since all Israelis by de-facto are zionists in some sense of the word, and as are all Jew's I'd have to say with this tricky definition that you can of course not support Israel and still not be an Anti-Semite and still be supportve of the Jewish people, to say otherwise I think is absurd, but since you are opposed and critical of something that I would guess 98-99% of all Jew's support you are not "Pro-Jewish" since you are alienating one of our biggest beleif. Sorry if my wording is a bit confusing it's hard to explain.
 

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superskippy said:
Every Israeli is zionist in some sense of the word, because they all live here and support their own state. Zionism is the dream for a Jewish State and since all Israelis by de-facto are zionists in some sense of the word, and as are all Jew's I'd have to say with this tricky definition that you can of course not support Israel and still not be an Anti-Semite and still be supportve of the Jewish people, to say otherwise I think is absurd, but since you are opposed and critical of something that I would guess 98-99% of all Jew's support you are not "Pro-Jewish" since you are alienating one of our biggest beleif. Sorry if my wording is a bit confusing it's hard to explain.


SuperSkippy I got a question for you.....Is Israel suppose to be a state for only Jews?...is that the idea of Zionism? I honestly dont know...Suppose more and more Muslims or Christians move there....is that allowed?...would it still be considered a Zionist State?...thanks in advance for your response
 

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Surenderer said:
I agree although there is nothing more fundamentalist than giving specific group of people a land base on a 2000+ year old prophesy.........
Let's see:

-Israel comprises 20% of what the British dubbed "Palestine". The other 80% is now in Jordan. Why aren't we talking about Jordan?

-30% of the population of "Palestine" (Jews) continously occupied this land for more than 2,500 years. I am not talking about the massive influx from Europe during the 20th Century.

-Have you checked how many Sephardic Jews were expelled from Spain 500 years ago and settled in "Palestine"?

-The "Palestinian people" are a British invention. There's no Palestinian language, no Palestinian culture. What we call "Palestinians" today were mostly, at the time of the creation of Israel, Arabs from sorrounding countries and nomads. They had no national or cultural identity. Find me a map of Palestine printed prior to 1925.

-In fact, "Palestinians" and Jews are both Semites...the same people.....differentiated only by their religion.

This is not about a "prophesy". Judea existed long ago. Jerusalem was not founded by Christian nor Moslems. It was founded by Jews.
 

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Surenderer said:
Is Israel suppose to be a state for only Jews?...is that the idea of Zionism? I honestly dont know...Suppose more and more Muslims or Christians move there....is that allowed?...would it still be considered a Zionist State?
I believe about 23% of Israel is non-Jewish. They are considered citizens with equals rights under the law as anyone else. No one (excepting kooks) wants to take away these rights. Clearly, the Jewish homeland does not have to be all Jewish.

Now let me ask you this: how many Jews do you think will be allowed to live in the new Palestinian state?
 

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galenrox said:
And me and my buddy Swan are both somewhat supportive of Palestine in the Israel/Palestine debate, even if for only this reason, Israel has so much, and Palestine has so little, and yet Israel wouldn't until recently budge even the slightest ****ing bit.
Israel has made many concessions. The histroy of Israel follows this pattern: Israel is attacked, they take territory for security, they give up this territory in exchange for peace. Recently, there was the Olso Accords, the 2000 offer by Ehud Barak (which Arafat rejected), and now the unilateral disengagement. The Palestinian Authority, on the other hand, has not given up any claims.
 

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Gardener said:
Since Zionism is the notion that gives Jewish people self determination and a place safe from persecution (other than through terrorism), I would think the challenge would be to explain why one would wish to deny rights to this one group unless one harbors prejudicial attitudes against them.
What about the palestians right to um......exist without haveing there homes destroyed? The jewish people have rights but they dont have the right to randomly invade an existing country just because they lived there a couple of thousands years ago? Im anglo-saxon and saxons are orgionally from germany. If Anglo saxons randomly decided to found a "national homeland for the anglo saxons" in germany, despite the fact the germans have lived there for thousands of years there would be an outcry. Why is ireael any different?
 

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Connecticutter said:
Israel has made many concessions. The histroy of Israel follows this pattern: Israel is attacked, they take territory for security, they give up this territory in exchange for peace. Recently, there was the Olso Accords, the 2000 offer by Ehud Barak (which Arafat rejected), and now the unilateral disengagement. The Palestinian Authority, on the other hand, has not given up any claims.
Good analysis.
 

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Connecticutter said:
I believe about 23% of Israel is non-Jewish. They are considered citizens with equals rights under the law as anyone else. No one (excepting kooks) wants to take away these rights. Clearly, the Jewish homeland does not have to be all Jewish.

Now let me ask you this: how many Jews do you think will be allowed to live in the new Palestinian state?




Sorry but I was asking a legitmate question from Skippy because I was curious....not interested in getting into a Israel Palestine debate with you so find someone else to twist their intentions around:2wave:
 

Surenderer

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MiamiFlorida said:
Let's see:

-Israel comprises 20% of what the British dubbed "Palestine". The other 80% is now in Jordan. Why aren't we talking about Jordan?

-30% of the population of "Palestine" (Jews) continously occupied this land for more than 2,500 years. I am not talking about the massive influx from Europe during the 20th Century.

-Have you checked how many Sephardic Jews were expelled from Spain 500 years ago and settled in "Palestine"?

-The "Palestinian people" are a British invention. There's no Palestinian language, no Palestinian culture. What we call "Palestinians" today were mostly, at the time of the creation of Israel, Arabs from sorrounding countries and nomads. They had no national or cultural identity. Find me a map of Palestine printed prior to 1925.

-In fact, "Palestinians" and Jews are both Semites...the same people.....differentiated only by their religion.

This is not about a "prophesy". Judea existed long ago. Jerusalem was not founded by Christian nor Moslems. It was founded by Jews.



Not intrested in debate was asking a question.....but your facts are so ridicoulous that it is tempting.....next time link your sources though
 

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Red_Dave said:
What about the palestians right to um......exist without haveing there homes destroyed? The jewish people have rights but they dont have the right to randomly invade an existing country just because they lived there a couple of thousands years ago? Im anglo-saxon and saxons are orgionally from germany. If Anglo saxons randomly decided to found a "national homeland for the anglo saxons" in germany, despite the fact the germans have lived there for thousands of years there would be an outcry. Why is ireael any different?

Are you talking about the homes that hide the underground tunnels with which Arab Palestinians smuggle the arms used for terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens? Now, certainly Arab propagandists get a lot of mileage out of the home demolition, and especially when people have no curiosity as to why they are being destroyed. Arab Palesinians have a right to exist, but I don't know why you would think that means they have the right to engage in terrorism or the support thereof by using their houses to smuggle arms.

As to your notion as to "invading an existing country", I don't know what you have been reading, but I would suggest reading some real history books instead of ISM type web sites because this assertion is wildly off base.
 

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galenrox said:
yeah, it's a rough issue. My girlfriend is in alpha epsilon phi, a mostly jewish sorority, so needless to say, I hang out with A LOT of jews. And me and my buddy Swan are both somewhat supportive of Palestine in the Israel/Palestine debate, even if for only this reason, Israel has so much, and Palestine has so little, and yet Israel wouldn't until recently budge even the slightest ****ing bit.
And once I got drunk and mentioned this to these girls, and all of a sudden it was like I had just said "I like Hitler, and he should've finished you all off", which don't get me wrong, I've probably said something along those lines to several of my jewish friends (always in jest, no PC police neccisary), but here I just presented a serious political argument, and they took it as anti-semitism. It seems as if a lot of jews act in a way that a lot of Americans act, that somehow criticising a government is criticising the people, like if you criticize Bush, then a lot of people consider you not patriotic and some actually think you hate America, and likewise if you criticize Israel, a bunch of jews all of a sudden think you're anti-semetic.

I personally think if they want it so bad, they should get it, but I think the same goes for Palestine, so I think they're on the right track and they should just stop being dicks about the whole issue.

I don't think criticizing Israel indicates you are antisemitic and if that is all you said then I think people overreacted. If you want to hear some criticism of the Israeli government, you should try reading Haaretz. Not especially fond of the Likud, they are.

As far as the Palestinians are concerned, though, one thing I might point out is that there were no people called "Palestinian" a hundred years ago, and if you had called an Arab in the region a Palestinian at that time, most would have taken great umbrage. That's not to say there weren't Arabs in the region 100 years ago, mind you, it's just that the Arabs there were not distinct from other Arabs in any sort of meaningful way as to be called a people. The reason I bring this up is that if one views the situation as being between Israel and Palestime, Israel does, indeed look like the big guy. If you put it in the context of Jews and Arabs, though, Israel doesn't look so big at all, and so the question becomes, "If there were no Palestinian people 100 years ago, why do we call them Palestinians today?"

One reason for this change in perception has to do with the fact of the occupation, itself, but more importantly, calling a smaller group of Arabs something besides Arabs helps serve a propaganda purpose by changing the dynamic of the situation in just the way I have described -- by shifting the perceptions as to relative power and size. Leaders of Hamas 40 years ago have even admitted to such, and much of the Arab rhetorec since has been carefully crafted to appeal to the liberal sense of wanting to protect the underdog.
 

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Surenderer said:
Not intrested in debate was asking a question.....but your facts are so ridicoulous that it is tempting.....next time link your sources though
I could ask you to do the same.



"I agree although there is nothing more fundamentalist than giving specific group of people a land base on a 2000+ year old prophesy........."

Seems more like a statement than a question.
 

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Surenderer said:
Sorry but I was asking a legitmate question from Skippy because I was curious....not interested in getting into a Israel Palestine debate with you so find someone else to twist their intentions around:2wave:
This is a public debate forum. If you don't want other people answering to your statements, you should have sent a message directly to Skippy. It's too bad you're not interested in a debate, but I'm sure that others will be.
 
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