Can you be anti-Zionist and still be tolerant of Jews?

[jamesrage]

[mod mode]
Calling folks nazi (when they aren't supporters of a National Socialist Party) is unacceptable in this forum. Name calling is not debate. While in this forum and every other forum outside of The Basement, keep your posts to the topic at hand rather than you fellow DP members. Deal w/ the ideas presented. If you wish to explore your personal feelings for a fellow poster, take it to The Basement.
[/mod mode]

Nazi,racist,and anti-semitic are practically the same thing.I see a anti-semitic trying to justify why he hates jews and trying to make it seem as though he is not a racist/bigot/anti-semitic.

 

[superskippy]

SuperSkippy I got a question for you.....Is Israel suppose to be a state for only Jews?...is that the idea of Zionism? I honestly dont know...Suppose more and more Muslims or Christians move there....is that allowed?...would it still be considered a Zionist State?...thanks in advance for your response

It is the Jewish Homeland, but as we said in 1948 if Muslims or Christians want to stay in Israel and build a nation with us we would be honored.

We have Druze, Muslims, Bedouans, and Chrisitans in our military and 18% of our population is non-Jewish.

About if more and Muslims and Christians want to come they can feel free, so long as they are peaceful. In response by 2006 Israel will have more Jew's on the planet than anywhere else Immigration has picked up with thousands more coming each year.

Our population has topped over 6.1 million.

 

[Valis]

Yes I believe you can be anti zionist, but not racist against Jews..Here is a site with info on Jews Against Zionism hope that helps.


http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

Traditional Jews Are Not Zionists

Although there are those who refuse to accept the teachings of our Rabbis and will continue to support the Zionist state, there are also many who are totally unaware of the history of Zionism and its contradiction to the beliefs of Torah-True Jews.

 

[TheTruth]

but you are not "Pro-Jewish" since you are against something that almost every Jew supports with all his/her heart.

trust me there are far more jews against zionism then you would think, many jews are happy to live wherever they live and have no need for a jewish state. sadly, thse people are dismissed as "self-haters" and there opinions are largely ignored by zionists. zionists (not jews) have used the holocaust (which was terrible, i'm not saying it was good and i am not denying it happened) as a moral weapon, anyone who doesn't want them to claim land from someone else (palestinians) must be anti-semitic. funnily enough the same people who oppose zionism could speak out against the stonijng of women in some countries and be branded an islamophobe. religion is used by the weak to hide behind and dismiss others opinions as "radical" or "racist". please note i am not saying anyone who is religious is weak.

 

[TheTruth]

Since Zionism is the notion that gives Jewish people self determination and a place safe from persecution (other than through terrorism), I would think the challenge would be to explain why one would wish to deny rights to this one group unless one harbors prejudicial attitudes against them.

Do you are also advocate eliminating the state of France for the French, Italy for the Italians or Japan for the Japanese? Why would you wish to destroy just the Jewish homeland and not anybody else's?

france for the french, italy for the italians, japan for the japanese and israel for the jews.

there is a big difference between french people and jews, the same goes for japanese and jews etc..

french people hail from france, japanese hail from japan, jews can hail from anywhere because judaism is a religion and not a nationality. that is the difference.

 

[Chris]

jews can hail from anywhere because judaism is a religion and not a nationality. that is the difference.

While I try to be open minded, honestly this is the biggest obstacle to winning me over to supporting Israel. I fail to see how people scattered throughout the world who until recently had little if any contact with one another, didn't speak the same language, may or may not be genetically related (though I think this argument is weak in defining any ethnic group), and really had almost nothing culturally in common except religion constitute a nationality. I can't get past the feeling that supporting Israel would mean supporting a quasi theocracy that denies millions of people within her territory basic rights and dignity because they're Muslims.

As I said earlier I do accept Israelis as a nationality because they have a territory which they inhabit and have cultural unity beyond simply religion, however I have a very hard time extending this notion to include everyone considering themself Jewish. You cannot define a nationality based soly on one criteria, a common language, history, religion, dress, cuisine, music, etc alone is not enough you need all of them together.

If Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc did not exist there could still be English, Arab, Japanese, German, Russian, and Hindi nationalities. Without religion there could be no Bosniak, Hui, or Sunni/Shia notions of nationality because nothing else would set them apart from the rest of the people in those societies. If there was no Jewish religion I find it very hard to believe that there could be an Israeli nation or people.

Don't get me wrong I don't have it in for Jews or any of the other controversial nationalities I've mention I just find them very hard to accept under the given definitions.

 

[Tashah]

french people hail from france, japanese hail from japan, jews can hail from anywhere because judaism is a religion and not a nationality. that is the difference.

Judaism is indeed a religion. What you neglect to consider though, is that the religion of Judaism harkens back to antiquity when the twelve tribes of Israel also considered themselves to be a soverign nation which ruled the current lands of Israel and Palestine, and large portions of present-day Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria.

The fact that Jews can hail from anywhere (like Christians and Muslims) owes more to the history of exile after the Roman/Jewish War (Josephus) rather than Jews wishing to leave Israel for colonization and misadventure.

 

[danarhea]

Nazi,racist,and anti-semitic are practically the same thing.I see a anti-semitic trying to justify why he hates jews and trying to make it seem as though he is not a racist/bigot/anti-semitic.

Time to poke a big hole in your statement:

Tell me why you believe the people in this picture are antisemites, nazis, and rascists. They are prosteting against the State of Israel and against Zionism.

 

[superskippy]

Yes their are sects of Judeaism that oppose a state in Israel, they are a very, very, small margin of Jew's as a whole, and are mostly Orthodox sects believe it or not.

 

[Tashah]

Yes their are sects of Judeaism that oppose a state in Israel, they are a very, very, small margin of Jew's as a whole, and are mostly Orthodox sects believe it or not.

Skippy is right. A handful of black-hats (what I personally call Orthodox Jews) reject Israel on religious grounds. I consider them to be patent hypocrites for steadfastly remaining in the Eretz Yisrael they reject. A bit strange, because for all of their bitching I never see any of them leave.

Additionally, it would be just as easy to post a pic of Americans demonstrating against the state they refer to as Amerika.

 

[danarhea]

Skippy is right. A handful of black-hats (what I personally call Orthodox Jews) reject Israel on religious grounds. I consider them to be patent hypocrites for steadfastly remaining in the Eretz Yisrael they reject. A bit strange, because for all of their bitching I never see any of them leave.

Additionally, it would be just as easy to post a pic of Americans demonstrating against the state they refer to as Amerika.

That wasnt my point. My point was someone making a blanket statement that anyone who does not support the state of Israel is automatically an antisemite or a nazi. There are plenty of people who are against supporting Israel as a state for reasons that have nothing to do with the character assassinations they receive at the hands of those who disagree with their point of view.

Personally, I do favor a Jewish state, and if it was not for the meddling in the Middle East by Western powers, I doubt if the situation there would be nearly as explosive as it is now.

Israel itself, in my honest opinion, could have done things a little differently to improve its image, but I do understand that when nation is surrounded by those who wish to do away that nation, knee jerk reactions are bound to happen. However, the US, as with any other world power throuout history, has a penchant of using other nations as pawns for its own political ends. The US political ambitions, of course, is to dominate the Middle East, and Israel has become a tool to be used for that purpose. It is not really the fault of Israel, but the root of much of the trouble can be laid at the doorstep of the concept known as "empire".

Final note: Building the wall, in my opinion, was a good move, as that will greatly curtail the killing being done by both sides.

 

[Connecticutter]

I don't see any examples of someone being labeled an anti-semite or a nazi for refusing to support Israel on this board. However, if you can find that, I stand corrected.

I think the wall is neccesary, too. It's bad in a lot of ways: ugly, intrusive, etc, but its far better than the alternatives.

 

[danarhea]

I don't see any examples of someone being labeled an anti-semite or a nazi for refusing to support Israel on this board. However, if you can find that, I stand corrected.

I think the wall is neccesary, too. It's bad in a lot of ways: ugly, intrusive, etc, but its far better than the alternatives.

I was responding to THIS quote:

Nazi,racist,and anti-semitic are practically the same thing.I see a anti-semitic trying to justify why he hates jews and trying to make it seem as though he is not a racist/bigot/anti-semitic.

 

[Connecticutter]

But that quote doesn't say that people who disagree with Israel are anti-semitic.

 

[danarhea]

But that quote doesn't say that people who disagree with Israel are anti-semitic.

Let me bold out the relevant part:

Nazi,racist,and anti-semitic are practically the same thing.I see a anti-semitic trying to justify why he hates jews and trying to make it seem as though he is not a racist/bigot/anti-semitic.

That is what I was referring to. If he sees an "antisemite" in the person who started this thread, then yes, ordinary reason tells us he DOES say that people who disagree with Israel are antisemetic. After all, how could he make his accusation against one person, but then somehow claim that it does not apply to others who believe the same way? he cant. What he said is pretty apparent. With all due respect, I think you are trying to split hairs here.

 

[nefarious_plot]

Simon's and James Posts show the answer to teh question. NO the intolant facists Americans will not make a disticntion between dis agreement with Zionism and babling on about Anti-smeite. The Americnas are comletey at the whim of Isreal and any condmentation fo there barbaraism concider treason. SO much for land of the free or home of the brave.

 

[Connecticutter]

What he said is pretty apparent. With all due respect, I think you are trying to split hairs here.

No, the wording was convoluted, and I honestly didn't catch it. That being said, I think most people on this board would say that you could disagree with Israel and not be an anti-semite. Hell, even Zionists will disagree with Israel on a whole host of issues.

Simon's and James Posts show the answer to teh question. NO the intolant facists Americans will not make a disticntion between dis agreement with Zionism and babling on about Anti-smeite. The Americnas are comletey at the whim of Isreal and any condmentation fo there barbaraism concider treason. SO much for land of the free or home of the brave.

It does not help your case by throwing out the word "intolant facists (sic)" when clearly you do not know what it means or even how spell it. There is a healthy debate about Israel amoung Americans and amoung the Jewish people. No one is at the "whim" of anything. Therefore, I feel this post adds nothing.

 

[nefarious_plot]

Let's see:

-Israel comprises 20% of what the British dubbed "Palestine". The other 80% is now in Jordan. Why aren't we talking about Jordan?

-30% of the population of "Palestine" (Jews) continously occupied this land for more than 2,500 years. I am not talking about the massive influx from Europe during the 20th Century.

-Have you checked how many Sephardic Jews were expelled from Spain 500 years ago and settled in "Palestine"?

-The "Palestinian people" are a British invention. There's no Palestinian language, no Palestinian culture. What we call "Palestinians" today were mostly, at the time of the creation of Israel, Arabs from sorrounding countries and nomads. They had no national or cultural identity. Find me a map of Palestine printed prior to 1925.

-In fact, "Palestinians" and Jews are both Semites...the same people.....differentiated only by their religion.

This is not about a "prophesy". Judea existed long ago. Jerusalem was not founded by Christian nor Moslems. It was founded by Jews.

bablign ona bout jordon. typical Zionist American rhetoric. Redirect the issue ins eom irrelvent direction and point fingers. Not really gonna fly.

 

[nefarious_plot]

Also nothign mnore racists that claimgin palestine never existed and therefore 8 million people can be slaughterd and hereded like cattle. Whatever revisonist history you want to compe up with about Palestine it doesnt justify isreali conduct in anybodies mind other then barbaric Americans.

 

[righton]

Also nothign mnore racists that claimgin palestine never existed and therefore 8 million people can be slaughterd and hereded like cattle. Whatever revisonist history you want to compe up with about Palestine it doesnt justify isreali conduct in anybodies mind other then barbaric Americans.

Mister, you should pay more attention to what exactely meant. There is no attempted racist, or revision of history as you are trying to purport.

What he means is. Prior to 6 days war, they called themselves "Arabs". (Arab-Jordanians for those living in the West bank, and Arab-Egyptians, for those living in Gaza).

It was only after the war, after which they went under Israeli military rule, when these Arabs started calling themselves "Palesitianins", to distiguish themselves from those Zionist-Yahuds.

He is absolutly right. There have never been such a state called "palestine", though the region was called Philistin.

 

[nefarious_plot]

Nazi,racist,and anti-semitic are practically the same thing.I see a anti-semitic trying to justify why he hates jews and trying to make it seem as though he is not a racist/bigot/anti-semitic.

ahh...all see see is the darkness of your own anal cavity.

 

[robin]

Christ... humans are so bonkers with their tribalistic labels.
The question is as daft as...
"Can you be anti fly and still be tolerant of insects ?" :lol:
Can you be tolerant of barbers that cut their own hair but not barbers that only cut the hair of others.
I mean WTF :roll:
Humans realy are the most intelligent & the most stupid creatures on the planet. I mean have you ever seen an ape affiliated to any political party or religion ?
Isn't it time sheep like humans with all these tribalistic hang ups, grew up, unleashed their minds from their self imposed straight jackets & became free thinking individuals instead ?

 

[Kelzie]

ahh...all see see is the darkness of your own anal cavity.

[mod gavel]

:smash:

This is absolutely not appropriate for the debate forums. Take it to the basement.

[/mod gavel]

 

[nefarious_plot]

[mod gavel]

:smash:

This is absolutely not appropriate for the debate forums. Take it to the basement.

[/mod gavel]

Oh bullshti yoru biased and goonna chase me around watching everything. Kiss my ass. ****ing nazi

 

[nefarious_plot]

This prooves my poitn I stated on other thread that user moderators will ALWAYS make a forum like this a biased orgnasation. They post here and let ther personal feelings and prejudice mixed in with power hungry button pushiing. And you get a one sided community.

There is absolutley no validity in any bullshit denail your dumbass retorts with. Proove me right and ban me or **** off.