Why I Became Pro Life

[OKgrannie]

We have not only a say, Rivrrat,... but we have votes and ability to write new policy, rule in the courts, etc.

Men wrote Roe v. Wade and men can overturn it.

And what will that gain you? The legality of abortion doesn't affect the numbers. You see, women have been having abortions for centuries without the permission of men, and they will continue regardless of what men say or legislate. Men simply have NO control over this issue no matter how much they rant, rave, and wring their hands.

 

[Chuz Life]

How many of those women were ever faced with an unwanted pregnancy?

My family is huge.

My father is the oldest of 12.

I am the oldest grandson of close to 30 (including step grand children)

I've lost track on the number of 1st, 2nd and 3rd cousins.

I won't share any more details than that,.... but you can do the math.

I've seen more than a fair amount of family crisis in my time. Including a number of abortions.

 

[Chuz Life]

I'm not saying that the biological facts are an opinion, but pretty much everyone learns those in school already. I'm saying that regardless of what the supreme court says, you'll never convince women that believe otherwise that it's wrong to abort. After all, the supreme court now says that personhood does not begin at conception, and abortion is legal, does that mean you believe it?

Please provide a cite for the source where the Supreme Court says un-equivocally that "personhood does not begin at conception."

Quote the text.

Not just a link to an inference.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Another reason I'm against abortion is because it has the same effect on the African American community as eugenics. African American women account for 38% while only making up 13% of the female population.

Why are you turning abortion into a race issue?
Why are you assuming that it only has a negative impact on African Americans? Why not other minorities who live in this country - Korean, Mexican, etc?

While I understand why people are against abortion (my husband is pro-life, so I get it) I fail to follow this new race-factor you're trying to toss into it.

Abortions are had primarily by lower economic class citizens, and this is a huge problem.

Now - if you think that lower-income class people HAVING abortions is bad then, let's pretend, they stopped having abortions - is that GOOD? They, suddenly, would all have even MORE children born into a home that can't even afford to pay the electric bill. What type of a 'good' life is that to want to bring a child into?

If you're poor and can't afford to care for the children you DO have (or a single child that's not yet born) then how can aborting it be BAD? Maybe these people are the only smart underprivileged people out there - wanting to WAIT to have kids for when they're on their feet, not dependent on the government for assistance or after they get through college and get a good job.

Maybe, instead of judging them negatively, you should try to see what things are like in their life. What they're going through, how they were raised, and where they want to head with their life. Maybe they all want to have children but are smart enough to know that "right now" is a BAD time.

When I ended up pregnant at age 17 having that child, though I love him dearly and never considered aborting him, really derailed my life and made things VERY hard - nearly impossible. I'm just now getting my life back on track 12 years later.

A lot of pro-life people really come across as being just judgmental or living with wool over their eyes. Completely uninterested in seeing the how, what and why of reality - failing to realize that we're not just talking "A Baby" but "a family" "a mom" and "a dad" and likely "other siblings" and "food" and "shelter" - the list of things that people have to take into consideration when having children is VERY long. It's not a simple cut and dry issue. If it was then there'd be little to argue about on the entire subject.

 

[Chuz Life]

And what will that gain you? The legality of abortion doesn't affect the numbers. You see, women have been having abortions for centuries without the permission of men, and they will continue regardless of what men say or legislate. Men simply have NO control over this issue no matter how much they rant, rave, and wring their hands.

Men should be able to punish other men (and women) who unjustly kill children for a living.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Men should be able to punish other men (and women) who unjustly kill children for a living.

:roll: *woot woot* Good ole male chauvinism. :roll:

She's right. Just in case you haven't noticed - "men" have much less of a say in things, now, than ever before. Men have very little influence in a woman's decision to abort - much as they have little decision and influence in if a woman conceives and carries.

You think my husband's desire to have MORE children plays a role in my desire to NOT have more children? If anything - it'll make me feel a little guilty if I ever get pregnant and have the unwanted child removed from my womb. But it won't keep me from doing it. It will, however, keep my husband in the dark. Just like when he was deployed and I decided that would be the best time to get a tubal ligation - while he was gone off to war and unable to intervene and guilt me out of it.

So - there you go - the mighty role that "men" have - leaves them in the dark and out of the loop, and on the battle field. Because instead of trying to be SUPPORTIVE and UNDERSTANDING of a situation in which they will NEVER be able to fully identify with - they'll just judge and insist on how things SHOULD be with little to no consideration to their partner.

So Boo hoo

I'll *woot woot* to that. :shrug:

Conceiving a child is a two-person act but all too often women ARE alone (even in a marriage) with the process of carrying and birthing the child. . . there's MORE to the entire issue of child-bearing than "be pregnant and pop it out" . . . but, typically, very few men can actually understand the psychological, emotional and physical aspects of childbearing/rearing. It's just not cut and dry no matter how much you'd want it to be.

 

[Chuz Life]

:roll: *woot woot* Good ole male chauvinism. :roll: Blah blah blah,.. snipped for brevity,...

Do you agree that there should be laws against killing children?

Do you agree that those laws should be enforced?

Do you support the idea of 'equal rights'' and 'equal protection' for all?

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Do you agree that there should be laws against killing children?

Do you agree that those laws should be enforced?

Do you support the idea of 'equal rights'' and 'equal protection' for all?

I don't feel that these laws or issues of morality and value, etc, apply to unborn/undeveloped humans unless the mother fully intends to carry and birth.

Can the child survive on it's own? That's more important when you're looking at 'life.' There's a point at which the answer is "absolutely no" - and there's a point at which the answer is "absolutely yes" - and there's your answer. But, of course, there's also the waffly time in which the answer is "maybe" - so, again, nothing's cut and dry.

There are things to consider beyond the scope of "is it a person, yet;" the thing I consider most is "Can Mom HANDLE being pregnant?" Whether she's going to keep or find someone to adopt the baby or not doesn't matter. Before you can HAVE a baby to consider you HAVE to be pregnant for 9 months. Physically, emotionally, psychologically - not just the mother - but everyone else who will be affected by the mother's pregnant "state"

I know for a fact that I cannot HANDLE another pregnancy in all these areas. I've gone through 4 - each with the same problems but those problems just became WORSE and more difficult for me to deal with each time. NOT that I don't want another cute adorable child running around my house and making me smile - I love having CHILDREN. But I can't handle anymore pregnancies - physically, emotionally, psychologically. It would be my undoing in more ways than one.

My husband would suffer. My children would suffer. I would suffer. Quality of life around here would bottom out. My sanity would disappear - life would be truly unbearable. My husband actually told me that he was fortunate to be deployed while I was pregnant this last time. He felt bad for the kids being stuck here with me - see - pregnancy + me = living in hell.

I didn't use to be so pro-choice. I use to be VERY pro-life. My personal experiences during each pregnancy changed it - bit by bit - after child #4 I had enough. I figured my family had enough, too - they went through so much hell right along with me. We survived it somehow and I'm simply not going to do it again.

If you're interested I could detail out to you everything, but having been a staunch pro-life advocate I know that will have little affect. The usual thing that changes one's view is personal experience, not the telling of other people's experiences.

 

[Chuz Life]

Do you agree that there should be laws against killing children?

Do you agree that those laws should be enforced?

Do you support the idea of 'equal rights'' and 'equal protection' for all?

I don't feel that these laws or issues of morality and value, etc, apply to unborn/undeveloped humans unless the mother fully intends to carry and birth.

Can the child survive on it's own? That's more important when you're looking at 'life.' There's a point at which the answer is "absolutely no" - and there's a point at which the answer is "absolutely yes" - and there's your answer. But, of course, there's also the waffly time in which the answer is "maybe" - so, again, nothing's cut and dry.

There are things to consider beyond the scope of "is it a person, yet;" the thing I consider most is "Can Mom HANDLE being pregnant?" Whether she's going to keep or find someone to adopt the baby or not doesn't matter. Before you can HAVE a baby to consider you HAVE to be pregnant for 9 months. Physically, emotionally, psychologically - not just the mother - but everyone else who will be affected by the mother's pregnant "state"

I know for a fact that I cannot HANDLE another pregnancy in all these areas. I've gone through 4 - each with the same problems but those problems just became WORSE and more difficult for me to deal with each time. NOT that I don't want another cute adorable child running around my house and making me smile - I love having CHILDREN. But I can't handle anymore pregnancies - physically, emotionally, psychologically. It would be my undoing in more ways than one.

My husband would suffer. My children would suffer. I would suffer. Quality of life around here would bottom out. My sanity would disappear - life would be truly unbearable. My husband actually told me that he was fortunate to be deployed while I was pregnant this last time. He felt bad for the kids being stuck here with me - see - pregnancy + me = living in hell.

I didn't use to be so pro-choice. I use to be VERY pro-life. My personal experiences during each pregnancy changed it - bit by bit - after child #4 I had enough. I figured my family had enough, too - they went through so much hell right along with me. We survived it somehow and I'm simply not going to do it again.

If you're interested I could detail out to you everything, but having been a staunch pro-life advocate I know that will have little affect. The usual thing that changes is personal experience, not the telling of other people's experiences.

So that would be "No,... no and no!"

Got it.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

So that would be "No,... no and no!"

Got it.

Writing "I don't feel that these laws or issues of morality and value, etc, apply to unborn/undeveloped humans unless the mother fully intends to carry and birth." had too many words?

It's not a flat out "no, no, no" - it fully depends on the intent of the mother. . . it's HER choice as to whether these things matter or not.

 

[Chuz Life]

Writing "I don't feel that these laws or issues of morality and value, etc, apply to unborn/undeveloped humans unless the mother fully intends to carry and birth." had too many words?

It's not a flat out "no, no, no" - it fully depends on the intent of the mother. . . it's HER choice as to whether these things matter or not.

At the end of the day either these children have a right to their lives and their personhood recognized or they don't.

When the biological facts are taken into consideration, either the Constitutional protections apply,.... or they don't.

The personhood and basic rights of one person are not contingent upon the wants, wills or convienience to another.

 

[rivrrat]

Do you agree that there should be laws against killing children?

Offspring with developed and attached cerebral cortexes that are capable of higher thinking and feeling? Sure.

All other offspring? Nope.

Do you agree that those laws should be enforced?

Sure

Do you support the idea of 'equal rights'' and 'equal protection' for all?

For all what?

 

[Aunt Spiker]

At the end of the day either these children have a right to their lives and their personhood recognized or they don't.

When the biological facts are taken into consideration, either the Constitutional protections apply,.... or they don't.

The personhood and basic rights of one person are not contingent upon the wants, wills or convienience to another.

Well, that's all your opinion.
Obviously my opinion differs because there's far more to the entire situation than that "one" child in question.

What about my other children and their rights? What about my rights?

It's a fickle issue - but, YES, I believe the rights of everyone else in my family trump the rights of an undeveloped human.

 

[Chuz Life]

Well, that's all your opinion.

More than an opinion,... it (righting the wrongs of abortion) is one of my goals in life,... a goal shared by many others.

Obviously my opinion differs because there's far more to the entire situation than that "one" child in question.

And each and every one of your children has their own basic rights.

Don't they?

What about my other children and their rights? What about my rights?

It's a fickle issue - but, YES, I believe the rights of everyone else in my family trump the rights of an undeveloped human.

Is your youngest child fully developed right now?

I doubt very much that he or she is.

Do you have a right to kill that child for the convienience to yourself or your other children?

 

[Aunt Spiker]

More than an opinion,... it (righting the wrongs of abortion) is one of my goals in life,... a goal shared by many others.

I'm well aware.

And each and every one of your children has their own basic rights.

Don't they?

EXACTLY.
My children who I've given birth to have their own basic rights. . . which are far more important to me than these rights that you believe are granted to an unborn child.

I just think you don't have the knowledge that I do in this situation - you have no clue how much of a NEGATIVE impact that me being pregnant has on my children. Aside the physical ailments which you're aware of (we've discussed it before) I have other mental problems that I struggle to deal with - I'm usually quite balanced but when I'm pregnant that balance goes out the window. I'm not making this up nor expecting you to grasp the scope of it, but when I say "I lose my sanity" - I'm seriously. Mentally, psychologically, I CANNOT *BE* pregnant an *BE* a decent, attentive mother to my other children. It simply stopped working that way.

It was a little bit of a problem during my first pregnancy. More so during my 2nd. (During these first two I managed to cope and keep it to myself) But it became an obvious problem during my 3rd to the point where my parents and husband had to intervene and during my 4th - well - let's just say that it's a blessing that my family knew what was coming and was prepared to step in and take the kids away from me while my husband was deployed.

Is your youngest child fully developed right now? I doubt very much that he or she is.

Don't play that card, you know what I was talking about - there's "fully developed" in the sense of having all the necessary functions and parts of a growing child (you know this is what I was referring to). . . and fully developed in the sense of being fully mature and an adult.

Do you have a right to kill that child for the convienience to yourself or your other children?

Yep - I sure do.
In my situation, considering ALL the problems I have while pregnant - it's the least I can do for the sake of our children.

Now, your lack of knowledge over how things go around here when I'm pregnant is the only reason why you, even at this point, are still likely unswayed - and that's fine by me because I know how things go, I know how I get and I know what I can and cannot handle - and so, yes, I make that call. I'll never put my children, husband and family through that ever again. They don't deserve it.

Sorry, future unborn, but you're out for the count.

 

[Chuz Life]

Do you have a right to kill that (under-developed) child for the convienience to yourself or your other children?

Yep - I sure do.
In my situation, considering ALL the problems I have while pregnant - it's the least I can do for the sake of our children.

Thank you Mrs. Yates

Your honor,... I rest my case.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Thank you Mrs. Yates

Your honor,... I rest my case.

You, immediately, draw the line to presume that I intentionally tried to harm my children like batcase Yates did. When I never have. I've never beat them, I've never tried to kill them - good heavens! Please don't go down that ridiculous scenerio path.

I purely lose my ability to think straight, focus, and make sound judgements about basic things - my sense of urgency practically dies and I live in a mental-state of delerium. I can't drive, I can't really think 'right or wrong' and I surely can't cook, shop, and in my last pregnancy - on top of living in an odd void of disconnect - I couldn't walk, breath right or keep down food - I had to be hospitalized and medicated for a while when I was pregnant with my last.

That on top of my intestinal disorder and pernicious anemia - it's just hell on earth.

My children were never intentionally abused or neglected - but I just couldn't actually care for them.

You're a classic example of a non-reality thinker. The reality of pregnancy for a lot of women is that it presents faaaar more challenges than you can comprehend or begin to understand. Instead of trying to understand those problems - you have your view and you'll demand everyone stick with your view no matter WHAT affect it has on everyone else.

Now, you brought her up . . . would you really demand that Yates have another kid if she ended up pregnant again?

You're a twisted fool if you say yes.

 

[Chuz Life]

You, immediately, draw the line to presume that I intentionally tried to harm my children like batcase Yates did. When I never have. I've never beat them, I've never tried to kill them - good heavens! Please don't go down that ridiculous scenerio path.

I never accused you of doing anything in your past.

You declared that you would kill an underdeveloped child of your own,.... for the mere convienience to yourself and your other children.

You also feel that you would be justified in doing so.

Like I said,... I rest my case.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I never accused you of doing anything in your past.

You declared that you would kill an underdeveloped child of your own,.... for the mere convienience to yourself and your other children.

You also feel that you would be justified in doing so.

Like I said,... I rest my case.

Yes, it is justifiable, absolutely. Because the life that you claim cherish and value and demand others to value is the exact life I'm preserving by not having more children.
Somehow an unborn, to you, is more important than the other children I have - and I just cannot fathom that.

Typical of your type: "I want that baby to be born! Who cares about what everyone else goes through because of it!"

:shrug: thus why I avoid extreme details when dealing with your type - the ability to see things through someone else's eyes is impossible.

Unlike you, however, I can actually understand where you're coming from and somewhat respect your view - because, as has been mentioned, my husband's more like you than me on this issue.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

You know what's ironic, Chuz
You specifically tossed Yates into a thread about abortion - when her children are all dead because she chose to never have an abortion.

So much for her being pro-life, hunh?

 

[Chuz Life]

Unlike you, however, I can actually understand where you're coming from and somewhat respect your view - because, as has been mentioned, my husband's more like you than me on this issue.

Aparently it helps for you to believe that I can not relate to a woman in a crisis pregnancy situation (never mind that I can),....

So be it.

The people who know me best,... know better.

Your definition of me "relating to a woman facing an un-wanted pregnancy" is for me to moderate my views on whether or not her child is a person or deserves laws protecting them.

My idea of relating to them is to increase the need for more education, prevention and assistance to those in need.

It is what it is.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Ah, right, you understand women which is why you try to convince them that they're wrong and that their unborn should be the only thing in the world they think about.
Gotcha.

My idea of relating to them is to increase the need for more education, prevention and assistance to those in need.

There's nothing that you can educate me with, or any way you can assist, to keep me from aborting an unborn - which I would only due out of love and respect for my other children because, as a parent, keeping their lives balanced and in check is my ultimate priority.

See, I, like many other women, have real reasons for it - it's not just an issue of convenience or life-and-death - but the overall quality and value of the lives of our children. You know, the ones that are born and go to school, who will remember things that happen and learn from it and pass it on to their children, who will struggle with the aftermath of "mommy's sick" for decades. These things ARE life, as well - and are far more important.

 

[Chuz Life]

Ah, right, you understand women which is why you try to convince them that they're wrong and that their unborn should be the only thing in the world they think about. Gotcha.

There's nothing that you can educate me with, or any way you can assist, to keep me from aborting an unborn - which I would only due out of love and respect for my other children because, as a parent, keeping their lives balanced and in check is my ultimate priority.

See, I, like many other women, have real reasons for it - it's not just an issue of convenience or life-and-death - but the overall quality and value of the lives of our children. You know, the ones that are born and go to school, who will remember things that happen and learn from it and pass it on to their children, who will struggle with the aftermath of "mommy's sick" for decades. These things ARE life, as well - and are far more important.

A child's right to his or her life is not something that can be bartered with.

Not by you,... not by me.

Sorry.

 

[rivrrat]

A child's right to his or her life is not something that can be bartered with.

Not by you,... not by me.

Sorry.

Can be, and is.

 

[Chuz Life]

Can be, and is.

Not from within the bounds of the Constitution it isn't.