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Why I Became Pro Life

Graffight

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I was formerly pro choice because I believed that no woman intended to kill babies. It always sat wrong with me to demonize mothers, because I didn't believe their intent was to kill innocent children.

As i have researched the topic I have found that there is only one central topic that is important to issue. What is the unborn? If it is not human life then it can be discarded, willi nilli, no problem. However if it is then the reasons generally given for abortion are not sufficient justification. The reason I say this is the only important issue on the subject of abortion is simple, If my daughter were to come up behind me and say "daddy can I kill it" my first question would be what is "it". If it's a bug...that might be fine, but if it's her sister...well that's another story.

In the same way we have to make our decision about abortion based on whether or not the unborn is human life.

First I we can know that the unborn is human life for many reasons.

1) because it has it's own DNA completely separate from the mother/father.

2) If allowed to let grow naturally it will never turn into anything else but a human, and species reproduce after their own kind (though sometimes it may die due to natural causes...but everybody does that eventually)

3) Under the law in any other circumstance if it is killed against the mother's will it is considered murder.

4) It metabolizes nutrients and transfers them to energy

5) It has it's own brain, lungs, heart and blood that are totally distinct from the mother

6) It responds to stimuli

I believe abortion should be illegal because all arguments try to disqualify the unborn from being life for one of 4 reasons. The S.L.E.D. argument was very compelling to me.

S ize/physical appearance

L evel of development

E nvironment

D egree of dependency

All 4 of these reasons are invalid reasons to take the life of an human being.

The one and only instance in which I would allow abortion would be if the life of the mother is in danger. This would be considered justifiable homicide, and would be justifiable under the law in other circumstances...these types of abortions along with rape and incest related abortions only account for less than 5% of all abortions. These abortions are really not the issue.

Another reason I'm against abortion is because it has the same effect on the African American community as eugenics. African American women account for 38% while only making up 13% of the female population. Abortions are had primarily by lower economic class citizens, and this is a huge problem.
 

1069

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For some reason, I couldn't really follow that post, even though I read it six times.
It seems to be all over the place. Maybe I'm just too tired and hungry to concentrate.
I guess it doesn't really matter; reproductive choice is legal, and that isn't ever going to change.
The only opinion that matters, ultimately, is that of the pregnant woman.
If she doesn't wish to gestate a fetus to term, she is free to terminate the pregnancy, and then go cheerfully about her business.
Others are free to piss and moan about it, but- as the old proverb so succinctly puts it- the dogs may bark, but the caravan passes.
 

digsbe

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Reproductive choice is legal, and murder of the unborn is immorally legal. However we will overturn that some day. America has the most liberal abortion laws even compared to Europe, yet we are more socially conservative and the pro-life movement is growing. Some fight for gay marriage because they believe it's immoral to prevent two people of the same sex from marrying, we stand to make abortion illegal because we believe no woman has the right to kill what is in her womb.
 

1069

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Reproductive choice is legal, and murder of the unborn is immorally legal.
Yep: that's an opinion alright.
Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one.

However we will overturn that some day. :sword:
Now this, this is a delusion.
Delusions are like hemorrhoids: only some people have them.
 

prometeus

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America has the most liberal abortion laws even compared to Europe
Really? Compared to which European country? How about Canada, it has no abortion laws and abortion rates there are not higher than in the US? Maybe you should educate yourself a bit before posting...
 
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digsbe

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Yep: that's an opinion alright.
Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one.
Yep, but not everyone wipes theirs. Just like how some opinions are full of crap :mrgreen:
Now this, this is a delusion.
Delusions are like hemorrhoids: only some people have them.
No it isn't. the pro-life movement is growing and hopefully through our efforts we will abolish abortion and have the state realize it for what is really is: murder.
America has the most liberal abortion laws even compared to Europe
Really? Compared to which European country? How about Canada, it has no abortion laws and abortion rates there are not higher than in the US? Maybe you should educate yourself a bit before posting...
Yes, yes we do have some of the most liberal abortion laws even compared to Europe. Here is a website that lists the abortion laws of many European countries http://www.pregnantpause.org/lex/lexeuro.htm
Most of them restrict abortion up to certain weeks/trimesters. Some countries have abortion completely illegal as well. In America you can get an abortion on demand during any stage of pregnancy, and the federal government recently overturned bans on partial birth abortion! We do have pretty much the most liberal laws on abortion.
 
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prometeus

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I was formerly pro choice because I believed that no woman intended to kill babies.
You can now rest asure that they still do not.

It always sat wrong with me to demonize mothers, because I didn't believe their intent was to kill innocent children.
But now that they still can not, not do they wish to kill their children, you are OK with dehumanizing them. You must have had an epiphany.

As i have researched the topic I have found that there is only one central topic that is important to issue. What is the unborn?
You researched the wrong aspect and cam up a minute late and many reasons short. Everybody knows what species it is and that it is alive. Some realize what that amounts to and some can not find reasons to justify believing that it is more.

If it is not human life then it can be discarded, willi nilli, no problem. However if it is then the reasons generally given for abortion are not sufficient justification. The reason I say this is the only important issue on the subject of abortion is simple, If my daughter were to come up behind me and say "daddy can I kill it" my first question would be what is "it". If it's a bug...that might be fine, but if it's her sister...well that's another story.
Not only another story but a nother dimension too...

First I we can know that the unborn is human life for many reasons.
Really? Most people just deduct that humans beget humans, simple as that.

2) If allowed to let grow naturally it will never turn into anything else but a human, and species reproduce after their own kind (though sometimes it may die due to natural causes...but everybody does that eventually)
You are catching on...

3) Under the law in any other circumstance if it is killed against the mother's will it is considered murder.
Not everywhere and certainly not for the same reason if say you are killed.

4) It metabolizes nutrients and transfers them to energy
But you forgot that those nutrients have already been metabolized by the pregnant woman, or you missed that part of the biology lesson?

5) It has it's own brain, lungs, heart and blood that are totally distinct from the mother
Really? Maybe you should look that up again.

6) It responds to stimuli
While you are at it , look this one up too.

I believe abortion should be illegal because all arguments try to disqualify the unborn from being life for one of 4 reasons. The S.L.E.D. argument was very compelling to me.
Good on you mate just as long as you keep iot to yourself and do not try to force it on the rest of society. The STFOOOPL argument is even more compeling.

Another reason I'm against abortion is because it has the same effect on the African American community as eugenics.
Assuming you even know what that means, can you support that effect with anything?
 

cpwill

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wait. you think that he believes we have legalized murder..... and that he shouldn't try to do something about that?

:sorry: but no. that's like telling the original abolitionists that they shouldn't try to impose their definition of a "human being" on slaveowners.

If you truly believe that abortion is murder of innocent human beings and you justify doing nothing about it....

well, that leaves you morally reprehensible.
 
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molten_dragon

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No it isn't. the pro-life movement is growing and hopefully through our efforts we will abolish abortion and have the state realize it for what is really is: murder.
I'm curious about something digs. Do you actually believe that making abortion illegal will reduce the number of women that get abortions? Or is it just a moral victory?
 

Chuz Life

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I'm curious about something digs. Do you actually believe that making abortion illegal will reduce the number of women that get abortions? Or is it just a moral victory?
I believe re-criminalizing elective abortion is called for (for Constitutional reasons) regardless,.. but add my name to the list of those who also believe that it's a necessary first step towards educating the populace on when and how a person's life begins, ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies, etc.... and THAT when rolled into one big package will eventually bring the numbers down.

:twocents:
 
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digsbe

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I'm curious about something digs. Do you actually believe that making abortion illegal will reduce the number of women that get abortions? Or is it just a moral victory?
It will bring justice. any woman who attempts to illegally abort her child would be charged with murder/attemptive murder. It would be having the law and society recognize abortion for what it really is, murder. It would bring justice and criminalize abortion. I do believe that less abortions would result, and any illegal abortion that was caught would be dealt with accordingly with the woman charged with murder.
 

Pal

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Reproductive choice is legal, and murder of the unborn is immorally legal. However we will overturn that some day. America has the most liberal abortion laws even compared to Europe, yet we are more socially conservative and the pro-life movement is growing. Some fight for gay marriage because they believe it's immoral to prevent two people of the same sex from marrying, we stand to make abortion illegal because we believe no woman has the right to kill what is in her womb.
Elective abortion will never be illegal in this country again. That's just a fact. I know saying this is going to bother some people, but I've always found the idea of men having any non pro-choice opinion on abortion incredibily hypocritical and borderline sexist.

It's easy for someone who never has to face an unwanted pregnancy to say that a woman should have to go through it. Not knowing what it's like to be in that situation and being biologically incapable of being able to know what it's like to be in that situation, I have always felt that it shouldn't be up to me or anyone other than the woman going through it.
 

ecofarm

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It's easy for someone who never has to face an unwanted pregnancy to say that a woman should have to go through it. Not knowing what it's like to be in that situation and being biologically incapable of being able to know what it's like to be in that situation, I have always felt that it shouldn't be up to me or anyone other than the woman going through it.
Now that's sexist. The kid has two parents who (hopefully) are both very much attached to and aware of what is going on. Lacking a vagina doesn't render one meaningless.
 
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molten_dragon

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educating the populace on when and how a person's life begins
Do you really think that's something that can be taught to people. It's a matter of opinion. Sure, you can express your opinion to everyone through government programs, but that's not going to make them believe it. I don't know, I just don't think you can teach an opinion.
 

Goshin

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I was formerly pro choice because I believed that no woman intended to kill babies. It always sat wrong with me to demonize mothers, because I didn't believe their intent was to kill innocent children.

As i have researched the topic I have found that there is only one central topic that is important to issue. What is the unborn? If it is not human life then it can be discarded, willi nilli, no problem. However if it is then the reasons generally given for abortion are not sufficient justification. The reason I say this is the only important issue on the subject of abortion is simple, If my daughter were to come up behind me and say "daddy can I kill it" my first question would be what is "it". If it's a bug...that might be fine, but if it's her sister...well that's another story.

In the same way we have to make our decision about abortion based on whether or not the unborn is human life.

First I we can know that the unborn is human life for many reasons.

1) because it has it's own DNA completely separate from the mother/father.

2) If allowed to let grow naturally it will never turn into anything else but a human, and species reproduce after their own kind (though sometimes it may die due to natural causes...but everybody does that eventually)

3) Under the law in any other circumstance if it is killed against the mother's will it is considered murder.

4) It metabolizes nutrients and transfers them to energy

5) It has it's own brain, lungs, heart and blood that are totally distinct from the mother

6) It responds to stimuli

I believe abortion should be illegal because all arguments try to disqualify the unborn from being life for one of 4 reasons. The S.L.E.D. argument was very compelling to me.

S ize/physical appearance

L evel of development

E nvironment

D egree of dependency

All 4 of these reasons are invalid reasons to take the life of an human being.

The one and only instance in which I would allow abortion would be if the life of the mother is in danger. This would be considered justifiable homicide, and would be justifiable under the law in other circumstances...these types of abortions along with rape and incest related abortions only account for less than 5% of all abortions. These abortions are really not the issue.

Another reason I'm against abortion is because it has the same effect on the African American community as eugenics. African American women account for 38% while only making up 13% of the female population. Abortions are had primarily by lower economic class citizens, and this is a huge problem.
Bravo sir, very well said.
 

molten_dragon

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I've always found the idea of men having any non pro-choice opinion on abortion incredibily hypocritical and borderline sexist.
I've never quite understood where this line of thinking comes from. If the fetus is a legal person (as many pro-lifers believe), then it has a right to life, and it is not only the right, but the duty of the government to protect that right to life. Wouldn't you say that gives men a say in the matter too?
 

1069

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Do you really think that's something that can be taught to people. It's a matter of opinion. Sure, you can express your opinion to everyone through government programs, but that's not going to make them believe it. I don't know, I just don't think you can teach an opinion.
Anyway, it's highly unlikely that an anti-choicer's opinion is going to be presented as "fact" and systematically "taught" to the populace with the current government in power, when no former president (not even a conservative, prolife fundamentalist one) has managed to enact such a policy of indoctrination.

With the nomination of Kagan to the Supreme Court, Obama has effectively secured to safety of Roe for many decades to come (even if stare decisis alone weren't enough to secure it, which I believe it is).
 
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molten_dragon

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In the same way we have to make our decision about abortion based on whether or not the unborn is human life.
The question isn't whether or not it is human life, the question is whether or not it is a person (in the legal sense). Biologically speaking, it is absolutely a human life. Whether or not it's a legal person? That's far less cut and dried.
 

Pal

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If a fetus were a person, then yes, the issue would be different and sexism would not be involved. I've never bought the assertion that it is, so that is where that opinion comes from.
 

Chuz Life

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Elective abortion will never be illegal in this country again. That's just a fact. I know saying this is going to bother some people,...
You may be right,... but elective abortion will have to remain legal despite an ever increasing determination to see that it doesn't.

I know saying this is going to bother some people but I've always found the idea of men having any non pro-choice opinion on abortion incredibily hypocritical and borderline sexist.
Even men who are or were single parents with full custody?

I raised my daughter by myself with little to no help from my ex. I raised her from the age of 2 to 11 before I finally remarried. While I was raising her, I took care of my ailing Grandmother for 5 years or more while working at home and taking care of both. When I remarried (a woman) we moved my ailing Step Mother and father in with us,... She had a braintumor and due to her meds had two artificial hips and an artificial shoulder. I was the only one strong enough to get her a shower,... up off the floor when she fell, etc. (and she fell a lot),... Then my wife suffers a full cardiac arrest,... and I still have to care for her in ways you may never understand or appreciate due to her Anoxic brain injury,....

I know I'm not there yet,... but could you please ****ing tell me when I (a very tired middle aged man) have done enough to earn the right to speak his mind on women's issues?
 

Pal

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I don't really mean the opinion of the father, sorry I wasn't clear. I do believe that in a relationship both parents should be involved in the decision, the ultimate choice being reserved for the woman. I just meant men in general being pro-life in an ideological sense where there is no actual pregnancy involved, certainly not one where they're the father.
 

Pal

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You may be right,... but elective abortion will have to remain legal despite an ever increasing determination to see that it doesn't.



Even men who are or were single parents with full custody?

I raised my daughter by myself with little to no help from my ex. I raised her from the age of 2 to 11 before I finally remarried. While I was raising her, I took care of my ailing Grandmother for 5 years or more while working at home and taking care of both. When I remarried (a woman) we moved my ailing Step Mother and father in with us,... She had a braintumor and due to her meds had two artificial hips and an artificial shoulder. I was the only one strong enough to get her a shower,... up off the floor when she fell, etc. (and she fell a lot),... Then my wife suffers a full cardiac arrest,... and I still have to care for her in ways you may never understand or appreciate due to her Anoxic brain injury,....

I know I'm not there yet,... but could you please ****ing tell me when I (a very tired middle aged man) have done enough to earn the right to speak his mind on women's issues?
I don't think that having one opinion which I find (borderline) sexist makes you a real sexist. It's not that I don't understand the intentions of people who are pro life, it's just that since you will never go through that experience the idea of you saying what someone who is going through it can and cannot do with their own body seems very hypocritical to me.

Edit: Also, nothing is true for everyone. Feel free to take my sentence and change it to most men who are pro life, I don't know you, so I'm not going to judge you.
 
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Chuz Life

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Do you really think that's something that can be taught to people. It's a matter of opinion. Sure, you can express your opinion to everyone through government programs, but that's not going to make them believe it. I don't know, I just don't think you can teach an opinion.
I am not interested in teaching opinions (though our institutions do just that every day.)

A declaration by the Supreme Court that personhood begins at conception would be all the weight that biological fact would need in the way of 'weight' to teach people the importance of prevention and the consequences of creating a new life without such regard.
 

Chuz Life

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I don't think that having one opinion which I find (borderline) sexist makes you a real sexist. It's not that I don't understand the intentions of people who are pro life, it's just that since you will never go through that experience the idea of a you saying what someone who is going through it can and cannot do with their own body seems very hypocritical to me.
The first amendment gives everyone the right (equally) to speak their mind, to assemble and to petition the government for redress. I frankly wish more women would step up,.... But I will not let women who fear they may one day have to deal with and un-planned pregnancy silence my efforts to defend the rights of their children.
 

Pal

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The first amendment gives everyone the right (equally) to speak their mind, to assemble and to petition the government for redress. I frankly wish more women would step up,.... But I will not let women who fear they may one day have to deal with and un-planned pregnancy silence my efforts to defend the rights of their children.
Well, I'm sorry but coming from a man that sounds very hypocritical to me.
 
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