Why Does VP Harris not Return Salutes from Military?

[ChezC3]

She doesn't have to and I'd just as soon not have her do it.

 

[roguenuke]

Just can't bring myself to care about this. There's an argument for POTUS to do it, even as a civilian, since he's the Commander-in-Chief. VPOTUS has no military role and probably shouldn't be doing it. For the same reason, I wonder if the military should be saluting her in the first place.

It is a common military courtesy, easily seen when you go to military ceremonies, for military personnel to salute certain, high up officials from both state and federal government. It is the office that is being saluted and generally a matter of whatever the particular command says is appropriate. However, since it seems like the VPs of the past have been saluted, this seems like a position that is traditionally saluted.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

It is a common military courtesy, easily seen when you go to military ceremonies, for military personnel to salute certain, high up officials from both state and federal government. It is the office that is being saluted and generally a matter of whatever the particular command says is appropriate. However, since it seems like the VPs of the past have been saluted, this seems like a position that is traditionally saluted.

That was my assumption going in, but I still think it would be entirely appropriate for them to drop it for VPOTUS and any other civilian besides POTUS, SECDEF, and the branch Secretaries.

 

[roguenuke]

That was my assumption going in, but I still think it would be entirely appropriate for them to drop it for VPOTUS and any other civilian besides POTUS, SECDEF, and the branch Secretaries.

It doesn't really change anything though since no civilians are required nor should be expected to salute, regardless of their office, which would include POTUS, SECDEF and those branch Secretaries.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

It doesn't really change anything though since no civilians are required nor should be expected to salute, regardless of their office, which would include POTUS, SECDEF and those branch Secretaries.

Like I said, I can see an argument for civilians in the chain of command. It's been a thing for forty years now so I think so many people are used to it for POTUS that dropping it would risk it being viewed as a political stunt based on whoever is in the Oval at the time. If the practice had never been introduced in the first place, I'd say leave it out. But it's here and unlikely to be ended. At least we can reverse-engineer a reasonable rationale for designating which civilian authorities are entitled to receive the salute. Those in the chain seems the simplest.

 

[roguenuke]

Like I said, I can see an argument for civilians in the chain of command. It's been a thing for forty years now so I think so many people are used to it for POTUS that dropping it would risk it being viewed as a political stunt based on whoever is in the Oval at the time. If the practice had never been introduced in the first place, I'd say leave it out. But it's here and unlikely to be ended. At least we can reverse-engineer a reasonable rationale for designating which civilian authorities are entitled to receive the salute. Those in the chain seems the simplest.

I believe that you may be mistaking "the President/other civilians returning the salute" for "servicemembers saluting civilians when in an official duty position". These are two different things here. The President and other civilians have been being saluted by military personnel since our founding. The President and any other civilians being saluted have not normally returned salute on any sort of regular occasion (most in such positions have mainly also been military members so knew and recognized proper protocol said they shouldn't return salute for such a circumstance, as these positions were held by pretty much only men for most of our time as a nation and most holding these positions did have some sort of military service).

 

[Crosscheck]

If one has not served in the military I don't feel they have earned the honor of saluting a military member.

Have always cringed seeing a president who never served trying to salute. Practicing in front of a mirror does not count as earning the right.

 

[RetiredUSN]

We had a Junior officer on the Inchon LPH-12 have a complete melt down with the members of his deck division for not saluting William Perry when he walked by. Bill Clinton sent him to our ship to explain why we had to go to Haiti for 9 weeks, directly after a 10 straight months at sea without a single day in port for liberty for the crew.

I could see the Chief Engineering Officer (Cheng) that I worked for chuckling quietly as we all stood in the "helo hanger bay" waiting to hear Perry's bull crap excuses.

Nobody liked a suck dick political officer.

 

[roguenuke]

If one has not served in the military I don't feel they have earned the honor of saluting a military member.

Have always cringed seeing a president who never served trying to salute. Practicing in front of a mirror does not count as earning the right.

Presidents who have served should not be saluting, since they are not going to be in a military uniform while the President of the US. You should not salute out of uniform.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I believe that you may be mistaking "the President/other civilians returning the salute" for "servicemembers saluting civilians when in an official duty position".

Based on my second-to-last sentence, I can see why you might think that. I'm really talking about both, though. I don't see a reason why someone should be saluted if they shouldn't also be expected to return the salute, and I can see a reasonable rationale for civilians in the chain of command to do so.

 

[Crosscheck]

Presidents who have served should not be saluting, since they are not going to be in a military uniform while the President of the US. You should not salute out of uniform.

Agreed with one exception. You have seen these guys and I think you may agree with me.

 

[roguenuke]

Based on my second-to-last sentence, I can see why you might think that. I'm really talking about both, though. I don't see a reason why someone should be saluted if they shouldn't also be expected to return the salute, and I can see a reasonable rationale for civilians in the chain of command to do so.

Because it is still a sign of respect, even if the return salute will not be given. There are many circumstances where we wouldn't/shouldn't expect a return salute, but salute out of respect.

 

[roguenuke]

Agreed with one exception. You have seen these guys and I think you may agree with me.

View attachment 67339720

I don't care if civilians of any kind salute, even veterans. I'm saying that others should not expect a return salute from them though. Others should not be giving civilians, even those in office gaff for not saluting.

I realize I've said they "should not" salute, but doing so isn't disrespectful just as not returning one is not disrespectful. It simply breaks protocol, proper courtesy.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Because it is still a sign of respect, even if the return salute will not be given. There are many circumstances where we wouldn't/shouldn't expect a return salute, but salute out of respect.

I'm trying to think of some, but all I'm coming up with is saluting the flag and saluting the recipient of a flag at a funeral. Not sure either of those is really the same thing, but maybe.

 

[roguenuke]

I'm trying to think of some, but all I'm coming up with is saluting the flag and saluting the recipient of a flag at a funeral. Not sure either of those is really the same thing, but maybe.

You would salute the CO or any other officer in your chain of command (or even that you just know is an officer) even if they are in civilian clothing. They would not salute back. You salute the National Anthem playing while in uniform. You salute a car of an officer as it is passing, even if the driver is not able to be seen (may be for example driven by a spouse, who would obviously not salute). When an officer in uniform is carrying something or doing something that would prevent a salute from being returned, you would still salute him/her, even though no return salute is required (although a greeting of some sort is traditional).

 

[Grizzly Adams]

You would salute the CO or any other officer in your chain of command (or even that you just know is an officer) even if they are in civilian clothing. They would not salute back. You salute the National Anthem playing while in uniform. You salute a car of an officer as it is passing, even if the driver is not able to be seen (may be for example driven by a spouse, who would obviously not salute).

I get that there are times you would salute an object (which, obviously would not then return the salute), and I would classify that under the same heading as saluting the flag (though I couldn't think of examples other than that when I mentioned it). The one bit that gnawed at me for a hot minute was the part about saluting an officer when they are not in uniform. I don't think I'd ever heard that before, and it appears to not be accurate (or at least not be required) per Army Regulation 600-25, part 2-1(i)(1): Salutes are not required to be rendered or returned when the senior or subordinate or both are in civilian attire. I didn't take the time to research USN, USAF, USMC, USCG, or USSF for comparable directives, but I imagine they aren't likely different.

 

[lurchadams]

She continues the behavior
——


Vice President Kamala Harris is going through criticism for showing to interrupt with precedent and failing to salute the respect guard when boarding Air Drive Two.

Video reviewed by Fox Information confirmed that her predecessors, former Vice President Mike Pence and President Biden, usually saluted the respect guard in the identical state of affairs.

VP Harris repeatedly fails to salute navy on Air Drive Two, breaking with precedent | THE TIMES OF NEW YORK

Vice President Kamala Harris is going through criticism for showing to interrupt with precedent and failing to salute the respect guard when boarding Air

thetimesofnewyork.com

OMG, this is just like when you all wrung your hands over Obama not putting his coffee down to salute. You guys are the biggest Karens!

 

[Nickyjo]

She doesn't salute, she didn't go to the border til now, she laughs too much. As I have noted, she's the right's new Hillary or AOC, a strong woman who HAS to be criticized. And get this, she has yet to endorse war crimes!!

For those who complained, disregard my comments if you can direct me to when you jumped on Trump for calling soldiers suckers, insulting McCain, refusing to brave the drizzle in France to visit the cemetery, etc.

 

[roguenuke]

I get that there are times you would salute an object (which, obviously would not then return the salute), and I would classify that under the same heading as saluting the flag (though I couldn't think of examples other than that when I mentioned it). The one bit that gnawed at me for a hot minute was the part about saluting an officer when they are not in uniform. I don't think I'd ever heard that before, and it appears to not be accurate (or at least not be required) per Army Regulation 600-25, part 2-1(i)(1): Salutes are not required to be rendered or returned when the senior or subordinate or both are in civilian attire. I didn't take the time to research USN, USAF, USMC, USCG, or USSF for comparable directives, but I imagine they aren't likely different.

It is absolutely there in the Navy. And it is right there in fact in your regulations.

All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Marine Corps, Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard), the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Ad-ministration, and Public Health Service

The part you are quoting actually refers to the other part of the salute, return of a salute. Technically, if the senior is in uniform they would not salute the junior (junior always initiates salute unless positional authority is in play, which wouldn't be the case here, since you wouldn't stand a watch out of uniform), but an enlisted or junior officer in uniform, passing an officer or senior officer in civilian clothes but whom they recognize as entitled to a salute, should salute. I am a retired Chief, this is part of training for us.

Regardless though, it is in the military regulations for saluting, and has been for a very long time that military are required to salute the President (and "other" civilian officials are given this courtesy as well, usually per command, not policy though).

 

[Grizzly Adams]

The part you are quoting actually refers to the other part of the salute, return of a salute.

No, it states they "are not required to be rendered or returned when the senior or subordinate or both are in civilian attire." (All emphases added.)

Regardless, I think we're straying a bit from the topic.

 

[roguenuke]

No, it states they "are not required to be rendered or returned when the senior or subordinate or both are in civilian attire." (All emphases added.)

Regardless, I think we're straying a bit from the topic.

Then there are contradictory parts then. But in general, salutes are given if you recognize the officer, even if they are not in uniform. And certain civilians, including the President, are required to be saluted. This is not new.

This is what is taught about saluting when you recognize someone as an officer:

https://www.slps.org/site/handlers/filedownload.ashx?moduleinstanceid=100751&dataid=76953&FileName=LE100_CH01_03_p042-057.pdf

If you are of junior rank, and see and recognize a military officer dressed in civilian clothes, you should salute the officer.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Then there are contradictory parts then. But in general, salutes are given if you recognize the officer, even if they are not in uniform. And certain civilians, including the President, are required to be saluted. This is not new.

I didn't say it was new. In fact, I said the return is forty years old. I'm just saying it might be time for an etiquette tweak. That's all. If you disagree, that's not unreasonable.

 

[roguenuke]

I didn't say it was new. In fact, I said the return is forty years old. I'm just saying it might be time for an etiquette tweak. That's all. If you disagree, that's not unreasonable.

The return is 40 years old, but the actual saluting of the President goes back to our founding, probably before even, making it very much part of our courtesies pertaining to saluting. The only thing that needs to be "tweaked" is the expectation of any civilians to have to return salutes.

 

[Bullseye]

Honor and respect? By attacking the capital.

 

[Bullseye]

Like he over charged the SS the whole time?

Like every other hotel where they stayed.