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Why does the world allow ISRAEL to "GET AWAY WITH IT" ??

cascadian said:
You'll have to be more specific about the Arab League's response and what they've realized.
The Syrian foreign minister, Walid Moallem, strongly supported Lebanon and Hizballah. But an historic obstacle was raised that blocked the Lebanese endorsement of terrorism.
The Saudi foreign minister, al-Faisal, led a triumvirate including Egypt and Jordan that, according to the AP report, was " . . . criticizing the guerilla group's actions, calling them "unexpected, inappropriate and irresponsible acts." Faisal said, "These acts will pull the whole region back to years ago, and we simply cannot accept them." . . . The Arab leaders are frightened that the acts of the terrorists they have coddled for decades might have consequences for them. And they are very frightened of what Iran may do next."
Shaken and Stirred

You can also add Dubai, Kuwait, Morocco, and Bahrain to the above Arab League members who place the blame solidly on Hamas and Hizbollah.

As for rocket attacks on Israel from Hamas and Hizbollah, all you have to do is Google the subject.

cascadian said:
Israel bombs civilian areas. It bombs civilians and there's no way around that. I'm not really concerned whether Israel "wants" to or not. The end result is that an incredible amount of civilians are dying from Israeli attacks.
I don't really care what abstract concerns you have. Besides that deserved sentiment, I wrote a lengthy post above explaining why Lebanese civilians are dying and where the exact epicenter of the fault lies. Although English is my second language, I have to believe on the strength of Kelzie's reply that my explanation was digestable, logical, and empirically obvious.
 
Shayah said:
Shaken and Stirred

I don't really care what abstract concerns you have. Besides that deserved sentiment, I wrote a lengthy post above explaining why Lebanese civilians are dying and where the exact epicenter of the fault lies. Although English is my second language, I have to believe on the strength of Kelzie's reply that my explanation was digestable, logical, and empirically obvious.

Like your other posts.
Great Job!

Some people only wish to see the truth that supports their own belief’s, making them blind.


Stay Safe!
 
JamesRichards said:
Occupation is bad, but putting up with the terrorism is worse. The solution, rather obviously, is for Hezbollah to stop shooting rockets into Israels back yard.
cascadian said:
That's kind of like saying the solution to world hunger is for everyone to eat. The crux of the matter is how,why and when that Hezbollah will stop doing such things ( or when they will stope finding new recruits). Israel's current strategy is a return to an old one that has proven ineffective.
:lol: Ha ha, did you think that was a good point when you clicked 'submit'? The difference, that I shouldn't have to point out to you, is that peoples ability to eat is dictated by a variety of extraneous factors that they may have varying to zero degrees of influence over. Their employment status, their education/skills level, the quality of land for farming, the availability of land for grazing livestock, availability of healthy workers to farm foodstuffs, even the vagaries of the weather in terms of drought or flood. There are no extraneous factors forcing the members of Hezbollah to construct rocket launchers in their gardens and fire them into Israel. In order to stop all they have to do is stop. It's very much more difficult for people to eat.

JamesRichards said:
And again one could say there was no Israeli offensive until Hezbollah started hostilities with those abductions.
cascadian said:
This fact is not in dispute. The question is whether or not the nature of the response was wise or necessary.
True.
 
Shayah said:
I have to believe on the strength of Kelzie's reply that my explanation was digestable, logical, and empirically obvious.


Which, of course, puts your thoughts at odds with those who rely upon the dogmatic repetition of doctrine.

In fact, I do believe there may be an explanation in there, somewhere.........
 
Kelzie said:
Good post. As a side note, I hope I can speak another language some day as well as you and your sister can speak English.


Sister? I must be slipping, because I hadn't realized.

Man, that's one impressive family!
 
Shayah said:
You can also add Dubai, Kuwait, Morocco, and Bahrain to the above Arab League members who place the blame solidly on Hamas and Hizbollah.
I agree that Hizbollah actions are innapropriate and irresponsible, but that does not dictate the quality and nature of Israel's response.

Shayah said:
As for rocket attacks on Israel from Hamas and Hizbollah, all you have to do is Google the subject.
Actually your more likely to get stories about current events.

Shayah said:
I have to believe on the strength of Kelzie's reply that my explanation was digestable, logical, and empirically obvious.
Feedback from people that already agree with you isn't the best barometer. Your english is fine though.
 
Israel has not done anything that hundreds of other nations have done, that is why they "get away with it". What I would like to know is, why are they considered different then these other nations?:confused:
 
B/c a lot of people hate Jew's and the thought of Israel actually defending it's people is sickening to them?
 
cascadian said:
I agree that Hizbollah actions are innapropriate and irresponsible, but that does not dictate the quality and nature of Israel's response.

Many of the initial criticisms of Israels response had to do with the concept of a "proportional" or "reasonable" response. Most of those critcisms disagreed entirely with your above statement, instead asserting that "Hizbollah actions are innapropriate and irresponsible, [and should] dictate the quality and nature of Israel's response." In other words, more in line with your position (as I understand it), Israel's response should have been much more muted, perhaps restricted to the seeking out of Hezbollah rocket launching positions in southern Lebanon. Lets examine that proposition.

There is no democracy in the world that should tolerate missiles being fired at its cities without taking every reasonable step to stop the attacks. Critics of Israel's military actions in Lebanon argue over what is "reasonable." The answer, according to the laws of war, is that it is reasonable to attack military targets, so long as every effort is made to reduce civilian casualties. If the objectives cannot be achieved without some civilian casualties, these must be "proportional" to the civilian casualties that would be prevented by the military action.

This is all well and good for democratic nations that deliberately locate their military bases away from civilian population centers. Israel has its air force, nuclear facilities and large army bases in locations as remote as anything can be in that country. It is possible for an enemy to attack Israeli military targets without inflicting "collateral damage" on its civilian population. Hezbollah and Hamas, by contrast, deliberately operate military wings out of densely populated areas. They launch antipersonnel missiles with ball-bearing shrapnel, designed by Syria and Iran to maximize civilian casualties, and then hide from retaliation by living among civilians. If Israel decides not to go after them for fear of harming civilians, the terrorists win by continuing to have free rein in attacking civilians with rockets. If Israel does attack, and causes civilian casualties, the terrorists win a propaganda victory: The international community pounces on Israel for its "disproportionate" response. This chorus of condemnation actually encourages the terrorists to operate from civilian areas.

While Israel does everything reasonable to minimize civilian casualties -- not always with success -- Hezbollah and Hamas want to maximize civilian casualties on both sides. Islamic terrorists, a diplomat commented years ago, "have mastered the harsh arithmetic of pain. . . . Palestinian casualties play in their favor and Israeli casualties play in their favor." These are groups that send children to die as suicide bombers, sometimes without the child knowing that he is being sacrificed. Two years ago, an 11-year-old was paid to take a parcel through Israeli security. Unbeknownst to him, it contained a bomb that was to be detonated remotely. (Fortunately the plot was foiled.) There are many, many other examples.

So what is a "proportional" and "reasonable" response to rocket barrages with 10,000 - 12,000 rockets pointed at Israel? What response is appropriate for a country facing an armed force on its border, said armed force being funded, armed and trained by major terrorist sponsoring states that have the avowed goal of eliminating said country? What is a reasonable response for a country whose proxy army is being supplied by its main patron state with advanced missles capable of targeting not only its border cities, but reaching its capital and other major population centers as well? Last but not least, what does it do to the equation when or if that major terrorist-sponsoring state that supplies the proxy army on your borders obtains nuclear weapons in the not too distant future?

Sounds to me like the Israelis have considerably more work to do.
 
BudLizard101 said:
B/c a lot of people hate Jew's and the thought of Israel actually defending it's people is sickening to them?

It's utterly amazing how many times the obvious has to be pointed out ad infinitum in these discussions; and you'll observe it will have to repeated again and again, as the so-called 'humanitarians' here never get it.
 
Sounds to me like the Israelis have considerably more work to do.

Indeed, and it's sad the U.S. has been a major factor in dragging it out so long.

It could have easily been finished in the 1980's, but thanks to Saint Ronnie Of Reagan's ineptness and lack of halfway realistic advisors, we were treated to the unbelievably amazing, Bizarro Worldish, and ludicrous spectacle of U.S. forces actually helping evacuate PLO vermin from there, instead of shooting them on sight, and leaning on Israel to 'moderate' their demands. Israel should go ahead and go for it, instead of this two weeks of warning and tipping their hands, increasing theri own casualties, which in the end will get them nowhere in 'world opinion' anyway.
 
Deegan said:
Israel has not done anything that hundreds of other nations have done, that is why they "get away with it". What I would like to know is, why are they considered different then these other nations?:confused:
I can't answer for the original poster, but I will say that I criticize the US for doing very similar things. It has nothing to do with Israel's ethnicity/religion if that's what you suspect.
 
oldreliable67 said:
While Israel does everything reasonable to minimize civilian casualties -- not always with success
Israel has chosen a response that kills considerably more civilians than terrorists (2 to 1 would be a very optimistic ratio). Their current approach was not the only option on the table. I don't see how it minimizes civilian deaths at all.

The more I examine the response, the less it seems intended to guarantee safety for Israel (as the deaths of Israelis have demonstrated). Their hope, as far as I can tell, is to put pressure on the Lebanese government and civilians to reject Hezbollah.

This is a punishing strike, intended to terrorize Lebanon.

Unfortunately for Israel, it actually appears to be uniting Lebanon behind Hezbollah. So in the short term and the long term this doesn't appear to be an optimum strategy. Maybe just maybe, this will bring in an international peace keeping force, but I'm skeptical of how much better they will fare than the Isrealis.

I support Israel's need to defend itself, but I honestly think that they have made a very dumb move in terms of their safety, and therefore the deaths of those civilians appear entirely unreasonable and unecessary.
 
cascadian said:
I can't answer for the original poster, but I will say that I criticize the US for doing very similar things. It has nothing to do with Israel's ethnicity/religion if that's what you suspect.

So you are just against any war period, am I correct?:confused:
 
cascadian said:
Israel has chosen a response that kills considerably more civilians than terrorists (2 to 1 would be a very optimistic ratio). Their current approach was not the only option on the table. I don't see how it minimizes civilian deaths at all.

This prompts a couple of thoughts:

First, the world has no idea exactly how many civilians versus Hezbollah terrorists have been killed. Thus far, we do not know how many of those reported as "civilians" were actually Hezbollah guerillas in civilian attire, nor how many were Hezbollah support cadre. We don't know, but it seems reasonable that were at least some, perhaps quite a few.

Secondly, here is a very clear example of how Israel's response minimized civilian casualties. As you say, Israel had options in terms of their response. They chose to use precision guided bombs in attacking and leveling several Hezbollah command structures in southern Beirut and other targets in built-up areas. These weapons effectively minimized damage to surrounding structures (and presumably, people). Imagine for a moment the additional destruction and possible loss of life if Israel had exercised their option to use "dumb" bombs on those same targets.

The more I examine the response, the less it seems intended to guarantee safety for Israel (as the deaths of Israelis have demonstrated). Their hope, as far as I can tell, is to put pressure on the Lebanese government and civilians to reject Hezbollah.

This is a punishing strike, intended to terrorize Lebanon.

Yes, clearly the campaign is clearly intended to guarantee safety for Israel. Otherwise, there is no point. This is not just a punitive strike in retribution for the deaths of eight IDF soldiers and the kidnapping of two others. This is a campaign to rid the Israeli border of Hezbollah's capability to mount those kinds of raids in general by denying them the infrastructure they have so laboriously built up over the last six years, to radically diminish Hezbollah's supply of Katyusha and other types of rockets - to the point of extinction, if at all possible, and finally, to severely attrit the numbers of Hezbollah fighters remaining in the area (to zero, if possible).

But, no, this is not a campaign to terrorize Lebanon. Terrorizing Lebanon will not further the Israeli aims enumerated above.

Maybe just maybe, this will bring in an international peace keeping force, but I'm skeptical of how much better they will fare than the Isrealis.

With a peace-keeping force in place, the onus will be on Hezbollah to behave. Which they probably do, at least on the surface, while quietly going about rebuilding and re-arming. Then, when they think the time is right, they will have another go at Israel.
 
BudLizard101 said:
B/c a lot of people hate Jew's and the thought of Israel actually defending it's people is sickening to them?

Oh shut up!

What Israel is doing to Lebonan is completely disproportionate. Israel has a specific and is backed by America in its quest to jewify the middle east.

This has nothing to do with hate, it's politics. You people attempt to promote this emotionalism in order to score points. Well, quite frankly no one should pay attention to it.
 
Auftrag said:
Oh shut up!

What Israel is doing to Lebonan is completely disproportionate. Israel has a specific and is backed by America in its quest to jewify the middle east.

This has nothing to do with hate, it's politics. You people attempt to promote this emotionalism in order to score points. Well, quite frankly no one should pay attention to it.

Jewify the middle east? is that why Israel is asking all Jew's in 'hostile' nations to get out of there? is that a good way to promote Judaism and i guess, according to people like you, keep control of the world? :rofl

And it IS about hate. The hate that HZ has for Israel. If it was about politics, wouldn't it get solved in a POLITICAL way(you know... like talks), and not kidnapping soldiers?

and who the f--- are you to tell me to shut up?
 
BudLizard101 said:
Jewify the middle east? is that why Israel is asking all Jew's in 'hostile' nations to get out of there? is that a good way to promote Judaism and i guess, according to people like you, keep control of the world? :rofl

You wouldn't want your kind getting hit in the crossfire now, would you.

And it IS about hate. The hate that HZ has for Israel. If it was about politics, wouldn't it get solved in a POLITICAL way(you know... like talks), and not kidnapping soldiers?

It's not more hate than what Israel displays towards Hizbollah. If the Israeli government do not what their soldiers kidnapped, don't bomb and destroy Muslim nations. It's as simple as that.

Quite frankly, I hope you blow each other up. It will save us time.
 
"You wouldn't want your kind getting hit in the crossfire now, would you." my kind? okay racist. is it any different than any other country asking it's citizens to leave a war zone? oh, of course it is, 'my kind' are involved, right hitler wannabe?

"It's not more hate than what Israel displays towards Hizbollah. If the Israeli government do not what their soldiers kidnapped, don't bomb and destroy Muslim nations." -- did Israel strike the first blow? and what muslim nations did we bomb and destroy?

"Quite frankly, I hope you blow each other up. It will save us time." -- keep hoping. how many times has the world turned on 'my kind' and yet we are still here... where are the nazi's? oh right, they are gone. Jew's lived, nazi's died.
 
BudLizard101 said:
"You wouldn't want your kind getting hit in the crossfire now, would you." my kind? okay racist.
Yes, I'm a racist, deal with it!

did Israel strike the first blow? and what muslim nations did we bomb and destroy?

Israel has perpetuated violence against Muslim nations for decades. They have purposely and through the use of disproportionate force and oppression have flamed the response from groups like Hezbollah.

keep hoping. how many times has the world turned on 'my kind' and yet we are still here... where are the nazi's? oh right, they are gone. Jew's lived, nazi's died.

Admittedly, like a bad smell you linger.

Commeth the hour, commeth the day. Seig Hiel!
 
Auftrag said:
Israel has perpetuated violence against Muslim nations for decades. They have purposely and through the use of disproportionate force and oppression have flamed the response from groups like Hezbollah.

Which nations?
 
BudLizard101 said:
Which nations?
Having fun teasing a mentally disturbed?
Do you realize that in his picture of the world you are a superior race, - are you enjoying?

I don’t mind at all, it is just little bit sickening to watch him performing his mental program on your calls.
 
justone said:
Having fun teasing a mentally disturbed?
Do you realize that in his picture of the world you are a superior race, - are you enjoying?

Yes, I am actually enjoying this quiet a bit. I mean where else will someone say that I own the world? I might have to join a few of these nazi's websites when I'm feeling depressed so they can cheer me up. Owning the banks, controlling the money, the media, and the gov't... I mean comon, can't go wrong there. :rofl
 
Auftrag said:
Israel has perpetuated violence against Muslim nations for decades. They have purposely and through the use of disproportionate force and oppression have flamed the response from groups like Hezbollah.

Seems like, once again, Auftrag is speaking without knowing what he's talking about and without pointing to un-biased sources...or any sources at all. Firstly, I'd like your definition of a 'proportional response'. Also, how has Israel 'flamed' the recent war crimes act by Hezbollah's kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers, especially since Israel withdrew from Lebanon 6 years ago, and has not initiated anything since. Here are two links giving some brief information on the Israeli withdrawl and the aftermath: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_lebanon_withdraw_2000.php
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060717/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_history_1

If you're going to spout your rhetoric, try not to sound ill-informed. We know you're a racist. Trying to debate in a racist way without substance comes across as ignorant.
 
“They are a small nation - small geographicallym small in population, small in their positive contribution to the world at large and small minded.”

Well I don’t know what history book you have been reading but I think your way off in your assessment of Jewish contributions to society.

http://www.jinfo.org/

Say, did you ever get a polio vaccine? Ever hear of Jonas Salk? He was a Jew.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/bmsalk.html

Ever hear of Albert Einstein? he was a Jew did you know that?


“Albert Einstein is undoubtedly one of the most fascinating and influential figures of the modern era. As a preeminent physicist, he radically transformed our understanding of the universe. As an ardent humanist, he took an active and outspoken stance on the significant political and social issues of his time. As a committed Jew, he advocated a distinctive moral role for the Jewish people.”

http://www.albert-einstein.org/.index2.html



“At least 171 Jews and persons of half-Jewish ancestry have been awarded the Nobel Prize,1 accounting for 23% of all individual recipients worldwide between 1901 and 2005, and constituting 37% of all US recipients2 during the same period. In the scientific research fields of Chemistry, Economics, Medicine, and Physics, the corresponding world and US percentages are 26% and 39%, respectively. (Jews currently make up approximately 0.25% of the world's population and 2% of the US population.)”
  • Chemistry (28 prize winners, 19% of world total, 27% of US total)
  • Economics (22 prize winners, 39% of world total, 53% of US total)
  • Literature (13 prize winners, 13% of world total, 27% of US total)
  • Physiology or Medicine (52 prize winners, 28% of world total, 42% of US total)
  • Peace (9 prize winners, 10% of world total, 11% of US total)3
  • Physics (47 prize winners, 27% of world total, 38% of US total)


Yes, I just bet you got a polio shot didn't ya?…………….:rofl
 
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