Why do homophobes disbelieve in straight allies?

[Black Dog]

Why would you assume that a person supporting Gay rights is necessarily homosexual?

I did not say or imply that. If you had bothered to be honest, you would not have posted such nonsense.

 

[middleagedgamer]

This whole statement is a load of crap. Not only have I had and do have friends that are gay, I lived in his house as a friend and guest. We have been friends for over 20 years.

Unless you are a mind reader or have some spacial time travel ability to read into Digsbe's life your statement is just conjecture based on hot air.

No, it's not a load of crap. That's like saying "I think blacks are inferior to whites... but I have black friends."

Tell me, if you have gay friends... do they know about your homophobic ways?

 

[middleagedgamer]

Yes I believe it is between a man and woman. It has little to do with anything.

It has everything to do with everything! Marriage is one of the most fundamental rights secured by our Constitution! here is proof of that. Saying that gays shouldn't be allowed to get married is like saying that gays shouldn't be allowed to vote or protest.

Again you are not a mind reader and have no time machine. Your statement is nothing more than a senseless rant based on hot air.

No, it's not based on hot air. It's based on a conclusive argument that no one can not be homophobic, while still thinking that gays should not have access to fundamental rights.

 

[middleagedgamer]

I did not say or imply that. If you had bothered to be honest, you would not have posted such nonsense.

It's not nonsense. You sarcastically accused him of being "King Homosexual." That means you accused him of being gay... just like how you accuse the President of being an American citizen who speaks for all American citizens.

 

[Black Dog]

No, it's not a load of crap. That's like saying "I think blacks are inferior to whites... but I have black friends."

Tell me, if you have gay friends... do they know about your homophobic ways?

Please point out how I have a fear or revulsion to gay people? You can't because I don't which means I am not a homophobe or anything even close.

You are making assumptions based on your own bigotry.

 

[Black Dog]

It has everything to do with everything! Marriage is one of the most fundamental rights secured by our Constitution! here is proof of that. Saying that gays shouldn't be allowed to get married is like saying that gays shouldn't be allowed to vote or protest.

This has nothing to do with anything I said about his ridicules accusation.

No, it's not based on hot air. It's based on a conclusive argument that no one can not be homophobic, while still thinking that gays should not have access to fundamental rights.

Does he know my family or friends? No he does not. It is indeed hot air.

All rights have restrictions, even freedom of speech.

 

[Gardener]

I did not say or imply that. If you had bothered to be honest, you would not have posted such nonsense.

I was being quite honest, so please desist with the personal attacks. Inherent in your selection of the term "king homosexual" is the notion that he is homosexual, himself.

If you had wished to convey something other than what you actually conveyed, you were free to have done so. You chose to say what you said, however, and thus it engendered my comment.

 

[Black Dog]

It's not nonsense. You sarcastically accused him of being "King Homosexual." That means you accused him of being gay... just like how you accuse the President of being an American citizen who speaks for all American citizens.

And the president does not speak for all Americans just as he does not speak for all gays, hence the sarcasm.

Please make an actual point next time.

 

[Black Dog]

I was being quite honest, so please desist with the personal attacks. Inherent in your selection of the term "king homosexual" is the notion that he is homosexual, himself.

#1 That would be wrong according to your post.

#2 It was sarcasm, not a personal attack.

If you had wished to convey something other than what you actually conveyed, you were free to have done so. You chose to say what you said, however, and thus it engendered my comment.

Hehehehehehe! No. You took my comment out of context and then responded literally.

It was intellectually dishonest.

 

[digsbe]

Yeah, i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that no, you are not friends with any homosexual people. I honestly wish that you anti-gay marriage folks would drop the "oh, I have friends that are gay" charade, because you are fooling no one.

So you judge me. Duly noted. Nice debate tactic. Truth is I have gay friends, and I've told them what I believe about homosexuality and gay marriage in a respectful way. We aren't like best friends but we are still friends. One of my best friends as a kid came out of the closet to me and asked how I felt about it.

You may have acquaintances that are gay - Bob that works a few offices down, for example, or the nice lady you say 'hello' to at the post office - but beyond office business or a quick passing, you don't really hang out with any of them. In fact, i'd say you go out of your way to avoid them on a personal level. You see, if you were really friends with any people who happen to be homosexual, then you'd treat them the same as any other friend. Maybe you would go out to dinner with them and their partner once a week, or have them over for a party, or just to hang out on the weekends, or anything else that you and your friends do. The point is, you'd be spending a lot of time getting to know one another, and accepting of each other. And friends tend to support one another - that's why they are called 'friends'. If you were really friends with someone who happens to be homosexual, then you'd have much different views of homosexuality and same-sex marriage, because you would see that the only difference in who they love is gender. You'd probably even be attending their wedding when they get married to their partner, and wishing them the best - the same as you would do to any heterosexual friend, because they are a friend, after all.

So because they are friends I should support their bad decisions? I believe homosexuality is harmful to the person. Because they are my friends I share what my beliefs are regarding it and I pray for them. It's their choice, but if I didn't care I would keep my opinion and beliefs silent when they asked me out of fear of reprimand or death of the relationship.

However, since you have no problem with the hypothetical homosexual friendship, here's the real challenge. Get to know someone who is gay that you have some common interest(s) with, and cultivate an actual, real-world friendship. Lay off the 'homosexuality is morally wrong' and 'i'm against same sex marriage' crap, because that will ensure that no friendship will develop; instead, spend a little time with them, learn from them, exchange some ideas, and get to know each other - you know, do what friends do. When you do that, I guarantee that you won't be spouting off about how you are against homosexuality, or how you think same-sex marriage is wrong. You can take that to the bank.

I also believe premarital sex is a sin and I don't engage in it. However many of my friends have and I share my opinion when asked. However I don't judge them. I'm not going to keep my beliefs silent out of fear of being branded a "homophobe" or judged. If someone is going to be shallow and reject me for my beliefs then it's their loss. I don't reject them for being gay, druggies, or anyone who has premarital sex because I'm not that shallow of a person. I'm not going to keep silent and I'm not going to lock up my beliefs.

 

[middleagedgamer]

Please point out how I have a fear or revulsion to gay people?

Accept my agreement to arbitration, and provide me with sufficient contact information so that I can garnish your wages and seize your assets if you refuse to pay voluntarily, and I will.

 

[roguenuke]

So you judge me. Duly noted. Nice debate tactic. Truth is I have gay friends, and I've told them what I believe about homosexuality and gay marriage in a respectful way. We aren't like best friends but we are still friends. One of my best friends as a kid came out of the closet to me and asked how I felt about it.

So because they are friends I should support their bad decisions? I believe homosexuality is harmful to the person. Because they are my friends I share what my beliefs are regarding it and I pray for them. It's their choice, but if I didn't care I would keep my opinion and beliefs silent when they asked me out of fear of reprimand or death of the relationship.


I also believe premarital sex is a sin and I don't engage in it. However many of my friends have and I share my opinion when asked. However I don't judge them. I'm not going to keep my beliefs silent out of fear of being branded a "homophobe" or judged. If someone is going to be shallow and reject me for my beliefs then it's their loss. I don't reject them for being gay, druggies, or anyone who has premarital sex because I'm not that shallow of a person. I'm not going to keep silent and I'm not going to lock up my beliefs.

I hate to tell you this, Digs, but although you may consider them a "friend", if you are telling a gay person that you know that they are sinning and trying to preach to them, they may not consider you a friend, at least not a good friend. No one likes to be told that what they are doing is wrong or a sin. Especially when what they are doing seems very natural to them and isn't harming anyone else.

I worked with a guy that was a really nice guy, and might have even called him a friend, but I didn't go out of my way to hang out with him because he "preached" to me a couple of times about how he was "concerned" for my soul because I am not Christian. He was even really nice about it and I could tell that it really concerned him. But to me, my not accepting the Bible as completely true and maintaining my own beliefs is natural and since it does no harm to anyone for me to believe as I do, it makes me very uncomfortable to be told that I am wrong. I cannot truly be friends with someone who makes me uncomfortable.

And you honestly have to ask yourself, could you be friends with someone who thought that a relationship that you are in is a sin? If you fell in love with a person of a different race than yourself, could you be friends with someone who felt that such a relationship was a sin and shared that belief with you more than once? It wouldn't even have to come up often, but if they were willing to tell you even just twice that they felt that such a relationship was a sin, then you would most likely always be wondering if they are going to bring it up again and make you feel uncomfortable about the conversation, even if you are completely comfortable with the relationship. I guarantee there are people out there who have the same feelings about interracial relationships that you have about same sex relationships. And some of those feel that there are passages in the Bible that support their beliefs.

 

[Hicup]

"Which begs the question what is a true homophobe? Is it guys like Blackdog, or me, or Oscar, or Tex? I mean really? Isn't it meant more as a label, and a rhetorical one at that? If you want me to buy into some label then explain to me how one can oppose homosexual special rights, and NOT be a homophobe?

What are the requirements to pass the homophobe test?" - Hicup

I think if you are not able to treat human being (gay, straights, whatever) the same way you would treat others, then I think you may have some issue.

If you are unable to treat people like the child-of-God that they truly are then you've got issue. And if you use the Bible to justify condemning or prosecuting gay folks then you simply don't understand what the Bible says.


But I think if you simply disagree with homosexuality for religious grounds then I think if's timeto remind those on the left about tolerance.

My opposition to homosexual special rights, among other things, is purely philosophical, and grounded in the scientific method. It has no basis in religious expression whatsoever. Frankly, depending on how one defines morality, I don't believe there is an objective moral argument against homosexuality.


Tim-

 

[Hicup]

In a pathological sesne, it is an irrational fear or aversoin towards homosexuals.

Oh, so irrational, as in like fear of spiders, snakes, heights, and all that jazz? Gotcha.. But what if it is rational to the homophobe? Who is the grand arbitor of what rational is?


Tim-

 

[Black Dog]

Accept my agreement to arbitration, and provide me with sufficient contact information so that I can garnish your wages and seize your assets if you refuse to pay voluntarily, and I will.

Exactly, you can't.

Have a nice day.

 

[Black Dog]

I hate to tell you this, Digs, but although you may consider them a "friend", if you are telling a gay person that you know that they are sinning and trying to preach to them, they may not consider you a friend, at least not a good friend. No one likes to be told that what they are doing is wrong or a sin. Especially when what they are doing seems very natural to them and isn't harming anyone else.

Bunk. We evangelize all the time to friends and neighbors. Some I agree react that way, some convert and some don't care.

You are painting with a huge brush.

I worked with a guy that was a really nice guy, and might have even called him a friend, but I didn't go out of my way to hang out with him because he "preached" to me a couple of times about how he was "concerned" for my soul because I am not Christian. He was even really nice about it and I could tell that it really concerned him. But to me, my not accepting the Bible as completely true and maintaining my own beliefs is natural and since it does no harm to anyone for me to believe as I do, it makes me very uncomfortable to be told that I am wrong. I cannot truly be friends with someone who makes me uncomfortable.

That is you, not everyone.

And you honestly have to ask yourself, could you be friends with someone who thought that a relationship that you are in is a sin? If you fell in love with a person of a different race than yourself, could you be friends with someone who felt that such a relationship was a sin and shared that belief with you more than once? It wouldn't even have to come up often, but if they were willing to tell you even just twice that they felt that such a relationship was a sin, then you would most likely always be wondering if they are going to bring it up again and make you feel uncomfortable about the conversation, even if you are completely comfortable with the relationship. I guarantee there are people out there who have the same feelings about interracial relationships that you have about same sex relationships. And some of those feel that there are passages in the Bible that support their beliefs.

Again this is nothing but you broadly painting everyone is the same. We are all different.

 

[Zyphlin]

Moderator's Warning:

Tone down the personal attacks and cease attempts to pressure people into RL situations

 

[CriticalThought]

So because they are friends I should support their bad decisions? I believe homosexuality is harmful to the person. Because they are my friends I share what my beliefs are regarding it and I pray for them. It's their choice, but if I didn't care I would keep my opinion and beliefs silent when they asked me out of fear of reprimand or death of the relationship.

It doesn't matter if you feel homosexual behavior is wrong but please recognize that gays must live in accordance with our own feelings and beliefs to be true to ourselves just as surely as you must live in accordance with your own feelings and beliefs to be true to yourself.

Please respect gays and lesbians freedom to be genuine in our own way and we will respect your freedom to be genuine in how you adhere to your own feelings. As long as we are not harming anyone, it is not your place to tell us that you cannot condone our behavior anymore that it would be our place to tell you that we could not condone yours. Everyone is entitled to live their lives as authentically as they wish as long they are not harming others.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Can a homosexual be heterophobic? (light humor)

 

[Harshaw]

Can a homosexual be heterophobic? (light humor)

It's not really a joke; I've seen it.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

It's not really a joke; I've seen it.

Please note being phobicto you in particular may not count. Unless you have spent enough time with a gay that was phobic to all heteros that you made this conclusion.

 

[Harshaw]

Please note being phobicto you in particular may not count. Unless you have spent enough time with a gay that was phobic to all heteros that you made this conclusion.

Please note that the laughable conclusions to which you jump only make you look foolish. I've been around the block and back again, kid, and seen (and done) many things you've only read about. Get some life on you before you say stupid things like this.

I have been witness to tirades about "breeders" and vicious little circles where sitting around generally bashing same was considered great fun. I have also seen seen similar things in print, on film, in poetry, performance art, and numerous other forms. Sorry if it doesn't fit the way you'd prefer things to be.

 

[The Baron]

"Frankly, depending on how one defines morality, I don't believe there is an objective moral argument against homosexuality." - Hicup

According to Judeo / Christain beliefs there is a moral argument against homosexuality.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

"Frankly, depending on how one defines morality, I don't believe there is an objective moral argument against homosexuality." - Hicup

According to Judeo / Christain beliefs there is a moral argument against homosexuality.

Since morality is inherently relative, this does not denote objectivity.

 

[CriticalThought]

According to Judeo / Christain beliefs there is a moral argument against homosexuality.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Not really a moral argument as much as an appeal to authority. Most of the people who hold this view argue that homosexuality is wrong simply because the Bible says so.

Example:

The Bible says that homosexuality is wrong.
The Bible is authoritative.
Therefore, homosexuality is wrong.

The fallacy is made because people argue the Bible is infallible and can hence be exempted from criticism.

Now some people do try to make a moral argument out of it by citing principles to a functional society. Namely that procreation and family are instrumental to the welfare of society and thus homosexual behavior is contrary to the health and continued existence of a society. And that moral argument was pretty good...up until the technological development of in vitro fertilization and knowledge derived from substantial research indicating that same sex couples are just as capable of raising children as opposite sex couples.

Others try to make a moral argument regarding health costs. Given that men who have sex with men are 50 times more likely to contract HIV and several times more likely to develop anal cancer as a result of HPV infection, that would seem on face value to have some merit. But then you have to account for the fact that HIV and HPV are sexually transmitted diseases that can affect either heterosexuals or homosexuals, and the technological development of condoms allows people to choose to practice safer sexual behavior regardless of their sexual orientation. The health costs are therefore not a result of homosexuality but of poor sexual health choices.

Recent technological developments have pretty much eradicated all the moral arguments that can be made against homosexuality. It's a losing battle for those who ascribe to the Judeo / Christian beliefs because they cannot demonstrate a clear harm caused by homosexuality and most reasonable people would look at Biblical prohibitions in their time context, and understand that the reasons why homosexuality may have been wrong before no longer apply in modern society due to technological developments.