Why Create and Punish An Imperfect Being?

[The Baron]

Some have a hard time grasping the concept of free will, including many professing Christians.

Sad but true. Even worse is that--IMHO--most Christians today don't know their Bible.

 

[donhughesmusic]

Sad but true. Even worse is that--IMHO--most Christians today don't know their Bible.

To be perfectly honest, I was raised Catholic up through 9th grade, and NEVER read the Bible cover to cover.

 

[The Baron]

And that makes sense to you?

Yes. Why it does not make sense to you is a bit of a mystery.

You are hyping a god of vengeance, one who suffers on the children the sins of the parents.

The kids got plenty of sin, themselves. None of us are truly innnocent.

That's a human trait.

It's your human understanding. What you suggesting is against what the Bible says.

An "all knowing" god would not have gone that way; we're defeated before the seed is planted.

An all-knowing, all-loving God gave us a way out at His considerable expense.

No, a loving god gave us choice for a reason, we can choose to follow him or not.

To your way of thinking. But that is not biblical nor consistent with God's nature.

The problem with understanding Jesus is that the church holds all the marbles. I for one do not believe God EVER intended for such deep penetration into our lives as being told how to ****.

That's gross. But God does desire to be in a relationship with us.

I doubt very much God ever created witches, they were burned for being mid wives. God NEVER ordered a war against Muslims and the Pope is a senile old white guy who has never known nor had the company of a woman, but who decides who gets born.

Now you're just raving.

No. No. I do NOT take the opinion of "Christians" seriously.

No kidding.

Jesus told us many things but never said word one about homosexuality and yet it was openly practiced in Greece, Rome, and Egypt at the time of Christ.

1. The Bible is not exhaustive. We don't know if he ever said anything about homosexuality or not.
2. The only time He did speak about relationships was the one that were between men and women and even called into recollection that God had made them "male and female".

Jesus went out of his way to treat women equally.

And?

You are really are raving!

The 'moral' bullshit didn't come until Rome conquered the movement and rebuilt it in the image of their pagan gods, complete with Vestial Virgins (nuns) and an 'emperor', the Pope.

That's Catholic. Not Christian.

Now think about this. Portugal & Spain were granted "papal bulls' (laws/orders/grants) a series that 'allowed them' to invade & conquer any land 'not inhabited by Christians" throughout the globe....in other words creating colonization and furthering slavery.

I doubt any God of reason would OK the enslavement of two thirds of the world.

 

[The Baron]

What exactly is an "ability not to sin"? (I have the ability to not run 100 MPH)?

Adam & Eve did not have a fallen nature. They were free not to sin.

This is no longer an option.

Well, no. God created the potential to sin.

In a world in which free-will exists, there is always the option to pervert something that is good.

In other words, God created wayward beasts, and a tempestuous environment for them to live and explore within. Whatever outcome would He expect?

Loyalty and submission to God's will?

I'm assuming the terms gullibility and incredulity are well within the vocabulary of an omnimax creator?

I don't know. They are certainly within yours.

Sounds like the house had more than a few trapped doors and hidden rooms.

More raving.

 

[The Baron]

If man "wasn't flawed", why would man 'willfully' choose to use his free will "poorly"? Willfully choosing "poorly" tells us that man is inherently "flawed." - poor decision maker(s) -Yes?

Having free-will does not make you flawed. It simply means you have the choice to choose poorly.

 

[Logician Man]

Having free-will does not make you flawed. It simply means you have the choice to choose poorly.

Does God know the decisions we will make before we make those decisions? Was mankind created flawed? If No, what caused mankind to become flawed? Do you believe in a 'Divine Plan'? If yes, how do you fine the 'Divine Plan'?

 

[The Baron]

You say because of Adam's and Eve's actions we ALL deserve punishment, but I've asked you to explain the foundation of that ridiculous reasoning and you refuse because you know it's irrational and indefensible. I'm not responsible for anyone else's actions but my own.

Let's try this.

We are all made up of 3 parts: Body, soul and spirit.

Our body relates to the physical world around us. We can touch, see, hear, taste, smell.

Our soul relates to other people. It is our mind, will, personality, etc.

Our spirits relate to God. We commune with God spiritually.

When Adam & Eve sinned, their spirits died just as God had mentioned. As such, they were cut-off from God. Their children were also born spiritually dead, therefore, unable to communicate with God.

As such, God had to come up with a "Plan B". This involved His Son being crucified. All have access to this free gift.

 

[The Baron]

To be perfectly honest, I was raised Catholic up through 9th grade, and NEVER read the Bible cover to cover.

Catholics are not encouraged to study the Bible on their own.

Sad.

 

[TheGoverness]

Well said. Fully agree. Now watch people post Bible passages.

The Bible is true because the Bible says it's true, and we know that it's true because the Bible says its true...

Repeat x100.

 

[grip]

Why would God punish you for sins that he himself gave you the ability to do knowing he was creating an imperfect being? Practically, wouldn't he have not given you the ability to sin? Isn't it the same thing as a carpenter knowingly building a faulty house, then blaming the home buyers for the house collapsing?

If we were flawless, wouldn't we all make the same decisions on every issue? Maybe we're born with limited knowledge to make good and bad decisions in order to mature and grow into unique individuals. What a colorless world it would be if we were all pretty much the same.

Besides, our time in this imperfect existence is limited before we are remade and perfected.

 

[jpevans]

We were created "good". We had the ability not to sin. Then once Adam & Eve sinned, we lost that ability.

And that was our fault...not God's.

That's an awkward sentence.

Practically, we had the ability to not sin as mentioned above.

It's more like the carpenter built the house soundly and then the home-owners can it and cut-out all the supports.

Adam & Eve tasted of the tree of Knowledge. Did the alleged god want to keep them ignorant.
p.s. The Adam & Eve story denies the evolution of humankind over billions of years & it puts humans at the center of the universe, which was created as their garden.

 

[The Baron]

Does God know the decisions we will make before we make those decisions?

I appears so as the Bible states that He knows the end from the beginning.

Was mankind created flawed?

No. The Bible states that we were created "good".

If No, what caused mankind to become flawed?

The Fall. When Adam & Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden.

Do you believe in a 'Divine Plan'? If yes, how do you fine the 'Divine Plan'?

I do. I think God has a plan for all of us and I'm still trying to find mine.

 

[VanceMack]

I reckon it depends on your entire vision and understanding of God, roles, and 'the Word'.

Ask in another way....assuming you are a parent, why would you have rules and consequences for your children, knowing its possible/probable that they are going to make mistakes?

I dont believe this is about 'punishment'...its about demonstrating character. When given choices...what do you choose? When you make mistakes, how do you respond to your mistakes...by humbling yourself to the Word, or with arrogance, by killing the 'Word' and following mans rules (which amounts to doing whatever you want because you want to). If it were about punishment, there would have been no Savior and no pathway to healing and forgiveness (which again...is not somethign God withholds from us but rather something we deny ourselves).

 

[jpevans]

I can never understand questions like this.

Either the person is being disingenuous making them a complete asshole and thus answering the question.

Or the person has such a narrow scope of thought that they couldn't comprehend the answer anyways.

So you can't answer it?

 

[Logician Man]

I appears so as the Bible states that He knows the end from the beginning.

No. The Bible states that we were created "good".

The Fall. When Adam & Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden.

I do. I think God has a plan for all of us and I'm still trying to find mine.

Thanks, Baron. Fair answers. I really do appreciate the civil convo/discussion, even though we have differing views on religious matters. The Bible says God is "fair and just." Do you think it is 'fair and just" to hold all of mankind responsible for 'bad decisions' Adam and Eve made? Or do you believe it is "fair and just" to kill all Egyptian first borns because of the actions on one Egyptian Pharaoh?

 

[jpevans]

God had no idea what would happen, then.

God is a concept by which we measure our gullibility. Belief in cult improbabilities prepares one to believe anything.

 

[The Baron]

Thanks, Baron. Fair answers. I really do appreciate the civil convo/discussion, even though we have differing views on religious matters.

Always a pleasure. It's quite nice to come here and have a civil conversation without being told what a stupid, racist, homophobic pecker-head I am.

The Bible says God is "fair and just." Do you think it is 'fair and just" to hold all of mankind responsible for 'bad decisions' Adam and Eve made?

I've sinned. I did so freely. I'll do it again. Adam & Eve weren't there when I sinned. I can't blame them. I made wrong choices knowing that they were wrong choices / sin. I deserve Hell.

Thanks to a loving God, I don't have to go to Hell. I can be (and am) saved. And the beauty is that no one has to go to Hell. We can all be saved. At the end of the day, it's a personal decision.

 

[jpevans]

God did or did not create humans? If God created humans knowing they would be flawed then it is a petty and horribly cruel God.

Perhaps she moved on to another dimension & tried again.

 

[grip]

Humans are born with very limited knowledge. In order for us to learn, there must be consequences for our decisions, both positive and negative. Any other way doesn't make sense.

If there was an Adam & Eve, they obviously did not have enough experience and appreciation to leave the tree alone. So, their children would also have to learn the same lessons through maturing.

 

[jpevans]

Then God is a flawed being.

God is somewhat different to every person who Imagines him/Her/It.

 

[jpevans]

Yes, Christianity has a rich history of self-promotion. My main question was for what reason(s) would God create at all? To create something there necessitates a need to express. Ergo, what does God need of expression; indeed, what's God's need of any need?

The 1st 3 commandments are about loyalty to god.

 

[jpevans]

We would be living on a paradise earth, as God originally purposed for mankind...

"The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it,
Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited:" Isaiah 45:18

That purpose will be fulfilled...

"The righteous will possess the earth,
And they will live forever on it." Psalm 37:29

"For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come, about which we are speaking." Hebrews 2:5

Man was not created to live in heaven...

“As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah, but the earth he has given to the sons of men.” Psalm 115:16

The people who ocupied the Americas were living in a paradise before the Christians landed.

 

[Daisy]

The 1st 3 commandments are about loyalty to god.

And by keeping those commandments, man learns to benefit himself...it's a win/win...

 

[Daisy]

The people who ocupied the Americas were living in a paradise before the Christians landed.

God's paradise will never end...

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Let's try this.

We are all made up of 3 parts: Body, soul and spirit.

Our body relates to the physical world around us. We can touch, see, hear, taste, smell.

Our soul relates to other people. It is our mind, will, personality, etc.

Our spirits relate to God. We commune with God spiritually.

When Adam & Eve sinned, their spirits died just as God had mentioned. As such, they were cut-off from God. Their children were also born spiritually dead, therefore, unable to communicate with God.

As such, God had to come up with a "Plan B". This involved His Son being crucified. All have access to this free gift.

The Bible very clearly states that we don't bear the sins of our ancestors.

Ezekiel 18:
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

You throw that all out with your crazy and sadistic theory that god is a masochistic asshole who will punish billions for the actions of 2 people. Can I safely assume you'd have no issue if the US government locked you up for the rest of your life in a prison cell for a crime someone else committed? He's your fellow human, so you're responsible for his actions right?