Where Jacking-up the Minimum Wage Leads ...

[NatMorton]

Correct, running a business and making a living serves the community. But being greedy for profit to the point of screwing people over is NOT a benefit and has become rampant within the business world.

How is refusing to pay more for labor than the labor is worth to you an example of rampant greed?

 

[Callen]

Suddenly, the Social Justice Warriors take command, and they're personally offended by a $7.15/hr min wage. "People must live!" they cry, and they promptly jack the rate up to a politically fashionable $15.00/hr "living" min wage.

First of all the minimum wage doesn't go from $7.15 to $15 suddenly. Wage increases are phased in over years. In the case of Boston, the story that was used to start this link, I think it was 4 or 5 years. That is lots of time for most to make the transition. Furthermore, the hikes don't necessarily apply to all employees, students and tipped with staff can, and often are, excluded or have a different scale. I can't be bothered doing the research but I suspect that the stats do not show that a hike in minimum wages, over time, causes many businesses to close. Prices are adjusted and/or other efficiencies are found. Currently, 29 States have minimum wages above the federal rate and most of them are the States where business is doing just fine ( Covid aside). An increased minimum wage also puts more money into the economy. Unlike the wealthy, minimum wage earners aren't socking their newfound riches into the stock market....they are spending it.

 

[NatMorton]

I can't be bothered doing the research

A rare display of Progressive transparency.

 

[grip]

How is refusing to pay more for labor than the labor is worth to you an example of rampant greed?

Labor wouldn't be so high if the cost of living wasn't so ridiculous. And you know who controls the cost of living, businesses.

 

[NatMorton]

Labor wouldn't be so high if the cost of living wasn't so ridiculous. And you know who controls the cost of living, businesses.

Do tell, how do businesses “control the cost of living?”

 

[vanceen]

The question of whether or not to automate is of course more complex than the current minimum wage.

However, it is still an economic question. Whatever other considerations come in, the ultimate question is "will my costs be lower with an investment in automation?"

Simply saying that other factors enter in doesn't mean that wages aren't an extremely important factor in answering that question.

 

[grip]

Do tell, how do businesses “control the cost of living?”

You're kidding, right? Housing, utilities, retail goods, food, transportation, insurance, medical care, energy, tv/internet/phone services, etc are all supplied by businesses. And if they hadn't been so greedy over the years, with CEOs, execs, board members, shareholders, ever-increasing their salaries, profits, and market share, we wouldn't be in this predicament of radical income disparity.

 

[Callen]

A rare display of Progressive transparency.

Two things. I am not Progressive by a long shot and, to be brutally honest, I am sick and tired of spending my valuable time doing research, providing data, linking to charts etc only have it to be totally ignored time and time again. I have provided links on the very same subject many times....why would I bother doing research for people who don't want the information?

 

[NatMorton]

You're kidding, right? Housing, utilities, retail goods, food, transportation, insurance, medical care, energy, tv/internet/phone services, etc are all supplied by businesses. And if they hadn't been so greedy over the years, with CEOs, execs, board members, shareholders, ever-increasing their salaries, profits, and market share, we wouldn't be in this predicament of radical income disparity.

Wow.

 

[NatMorton]

Two things. I am not Progressive by a long shot and, to be brutally honest, I am sick and tired of spending my valuable time doing research, providing data, linking to charts etc only have it to be totally ignored time and time again. I have provided links on the very same subject many times....why would I bother doing research for people who don't want the information?

I do research to stay informed. That’s why I bother.

 

[Callen]

I do research to stay informed. That’s why I bother.

You miss my point altogether, I'll put it down to me not explaining it well. I do tons of research to keep me informed and I have supplied the same information here many times only to have to provide it again and again and generally to the same posters. Given you do research subjects that interest you then you already know the economic effects of a $15 minimum wage on the States that are moving in that direction so I am not sure why you need to theorize,

 

[SoCal]

No argument but it is not minimum wages it is all wages bands especially high paid jobs with lots of benefitss. Many, many more good paying jobs have been eliminated because of automation and it's been happening for years and years and has little to do with the minimum wage increase happening around the country. Automation has come to the point where it is really cheap so now the lower wage groups are prime pickings..

That is what happened to me, I was the proverbial buggy whip maker. My high paying career just disappeared almost overnight when computers reached the point of doing our jobs. I was lucky, it happened just when I retired, but there's millions coming after me...

 

[aociswundumho]

There's also our long-term problem. If machines are continuously driving down the value of labor... how long can society survive such a trend? Machines get better, faster, and smarter over time. We do not. I'd be hesitant to point at any occupation and smugly declare it can never be automated.

Machines have been driving down the value of labor for hundreds of years, and the number of jobs has only gone up.

 

[Deuce]

Machines have been driving down the value of labor for hundreds of years, and the number of jobs has only gone up.

Do they not increase productivity?

 

[noonereal]

... when the cost of labor begins to outpace the economic value that of labor, labor substitution can become economically viable:

Dunkin' Opens First 'Digital-Only' Restaurant In Boston

A new kind of Dunkin' has just opened in Boston.

boston.cbslocal.com

This has nothing to do with minimum wage. Good grief.

 

[aociswundumho]

Do they not increase productivity?

Of course they do.

 

[Hypothetical]

This was inevitable In China where they pay their workers a fraction of what workers are paid here they also have labor substitution in their work places..

Robots/digital can work 24/7. no sick days, they are more productive, very little safety concerns, this goes faaaaaar beyond just pay...

This is true.. and I still fail to see how progressive open border polices.. (don't tell me they aren't after that footage at the border the last few days) helps our citizenry when more and more, Automation is coming.

 

[notquiteright]

... when the cost of labor begins to outpace the economic value that of labor, labor substitution can become economically viable:

Dunkin' Opens First 'Digital-Only' Restaurant In Boston

A new kind of Dunkin' has just opened in Boston.

boston.cbslocal.com

Labor replacement has been going on for quite awhile now. Are you a hermit? Go into any WALMART and see all the self check-out stations. Most of the time two maybe three cashier checkout lanes are open out of several dozen...

This started long before Covid, before wage hikes, before MAGA was a thing...

 

[Peter]

Europe has higher minimum wages than the US and yet companies still manage to make a profit.
It's a modern-day miracle!

 

[notquiteright]

I suspect I think a great deal more about these things than do you. You can tell by the lack of silly hyperbole in my statements.

Well that is ironic considering you want to blame increased wages for automation in some food service. You must not get out much. I posted in another thread my observations in OKC and Lawton, OK. You'd make bank betting each and every fast food, or restaurant has a 'NOW HIRING' sign and our min wage hasn't gone up a cent...

I said this in the other thread noting our Governor's stopping federal unemployment payments early. He claimed it was paying people more to sit at home than going back to work. But funny thing, the business supporters of this action are still struggling to find people willing to work for 7.25 an hour. So perhaps it isn't high wages driving the need for machines but rather the lack of people willing to work for a pittance...

You might want to think on that a bit...

 

[independentusa]

Of course there are problems. Nobody is claiming these things are magic. Screens break, software has bugs, batteries die, USB-C is an invention of satan, etc. You're a design engineer? Have you designed anything for a fast food joint?

Because I think you're not considering that these systems pretty much already exist. There's already a screen that orders are punched into, a system to connect a credit card terminal to that screen for payment, and send the order to the back to begin prepping. The screen is already there, and already performing these tasks. The screen is just facing the other direction and there's a person hired to push all those buttons for you.

Now, you can't just spin the monitor around and call it a day, obviously. That interface is designed for a trained employee. Customers are going to be slower and clumsier. They need an easier interface, and probably a larger one.

Again, I'm not saying the problems don't exist. I'm saying McDonald's doesn't care because the screens save money. I think the barriers are much more cultural than financial or technical.


I don't expect "zero humans" is the result here. "Far fewer humans" is. If these screens can bring a shift from ten down to five, they're going to do it.

Thata is one of the dumbest OP I javae read on this message board. Replacing people with machines has been going on for a hundred years and even in very low paying jobs. Take Walmart, where they now have do it yourself checkouts that cut out cashiers. Do not think that it is because they pay low wages, which they do, they just want to pay fewer workers so they can make more profits. the minimum wage has had nothing to do with it since it has not been change in that for a long time. And in states where there has been an increase in minimum wage, the economy has grown faster than the rest of the country.

 

[Deuce]

Of course they do.

Then certainly the "value" of that labor actually goes up and not down?

 

[aociswundumho]

Then certainly the "value" of that labor actually goes up and not down?

No. When automatic pinsetters became widespread in bowling alleys, the value of the labor of a pin boy fell to zero.

 

[Metric Mouse]

Automation has little to do with the minimum wage. Automation has been happening for a long time and usually has more to do with replacing high wage/high benefit employees than minimum wage employees. The auto industry, the aviation industry and manufacturing in general are good examples where significant high paying jobs have been replaced with robotics/mechanization.

Are you suggesting that order takers at Dunkin' donughts are high wage/high benefit employees, and that is why they have been replaced by an Ipad?

 

[Deuce]

No. When automatic pinsetters became widespread in bowling alleys, the value of the labor of a pin boy fell to zero.

There's a difference between automation and machinery with regards to productivity.

The accountant is more productive with the invention of the computer, but they are not automated. One accountant does the job of many. He brings more value to the company than before.

You are defining value as "what the person is paid." The computer reduced the need for accountants, so the market price of their labor was reduced in theory. But an individual accountant is still producing more actual work.