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Where Jacking-up the Minimum Wage Leads ...

Do you want me to explain the problem in detail and include both systems engineering and ergonomics. I'm a design engineer. This is what I do.
Of course there are problems. Nobody is claiming these things are magic. Screens break, software has bugs, batteries die, USB-C is an invention of satan, etc. You're a design engineer? Have you designed anything for a fast food joint?

Because I think you're not considering that these systems pretty much already exist. There's already a screen that orders are punched into, a system to connect a credit card terminal to that screen for payment, and send the order to the back to begin prepping. The screen is already there, and already performing these tasks. The screen is just facing the other direction and there's a person hired to push all those buttons for you.

Now, you can't just spin the monitor around and call it a day, obviously. That interface is designed for a trained employee. Customers are going to be slower and clumsier. They need an easier interface, and probably a larger one.

Again, I'm not saying the problems don't exist. I'm saying McDonald's doesn't care because the screens save money. I think the barriers are much more cultural than financial or technical.

Most of these systems are very poorly designed, have poor backup plans, get overloaded easily and they are very limited in function. A human backup is often the best choice except in environments that are hazardous. I'd rather deal with a moderately intelligent human that is well paid for their time. It makes life much more rewarding. Computers are good at certain things but consumer service is not one of them.
I don't expect "zero humans" is the result here. "Far fewer humans" is. If these screens can bring a shift from ten down to five, they're going to do it.
 
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Of course there are problems. Nobody is claiming these things are magic. Screens break, software has bugs, batteries die, USB-C is an invention of satan, etc. You're a design engineer? Have you designed anything for a fast food joint?

Because I think you're not considering that these systems pretty much already exist. There's already a screen that orders are punched into, a system to connect a credit card terminal to that screen for payment, and send the order to the back to begin prepping. The screen is already there, and already performing these tasks. The screen is just facing the other direction and there's a person hired to push all those buttons for you.

Now, you can't just spin the monitor around and call it a day, obviously. That interface is designed for a trained employee. Customers are going to be slower and clumsier. They need an easier interface, and probably a larger one.

Again, I'm not saying the problems don't exist. I'm saying McDonald's doesn't care because the screens save money. I think the barriers are much more cultural than financial or technical.


I don't expect "zero humans" is the result here. "Far fewer humans" is. If these screens can bring a shift from ten down to five, they're going to do it.
We dont do fast food. All of our work is in manufacturing and machine tools, often heavy manufacturing and machining for the steel and aluminum industry.

People will go someplace else rather than to deal with this. I know I would. Getting a cup of coffee and pastry should be relaxing and enjoyable, not a stressful interaction with a computer with limited understanding. You want to be waited on and treated as a human.
 
I doubt it will be a success because people dont want to deal with a computer that is prone to mistakes. They want personalized service from a human and most will pay a little extra for it.

Jesus was a communist.

Matthew 19:21

This sounds a lot like Karl Marx.
Sorry but voluntary charity isn't communist.
 
We dont do fast food. All of our work is in manufacturing and machine tools, often heavy manufacturing and machining for the steel and aluminum industry.

People will go someplace else rather than to deal with this. I know I would. Getting a cup of coffee and pastry should be relaxing and enjoyable, not a stressful interaction with a computer with limited understanding. You want to be waited on and treated as a human.

It's only stressful when it's new and unfamiliar. It's mostly old people who will have a real problem with this.

A current 18 year old? They prefer the screen. They aren't stressed out by it at all. Hell, they're more stressed having to talk to a human. Me personally? I hate having to deal with a person over the simplest of things that doesn't need a person. Canceling a hotel reservation shouldn't require a phone call, I should be able to just push a button on my phone. I got shit to do.

Like I said, and you appear to be agreeing to some degree, the barrier is cultural. That's exactly why they're doing this gradually. They're slowly phasing in the screens.
 
According to the article, the order can be placed on a special app on your smartphone or at 2 kiosks within the store. Remember this is a donut shop, the orders aren't that complicated. Besides which a company as large as this company would have done tons of market research. I don't think it is an accident that it is in an upscale business area of Boston. I suspect a highly tech-savvy clientele. They likely would not place a facility like this in a donut shop in small town USA. It also appears it is only the counter staff that is being replaced not the kitchen staff or the maintenance staff. In this day and age contactless service in a fast food joint like this might be well received.
 
We should eliminate a minimum wage so businesses can pay the pennies an hour to be competitive with automation....

Did you even think before you made this really stupid argument?
I suspect I think a great deal more about these things than do you. You can tell by the lack of silly hyperbole in my statements.
 
Economics is not singular like that.

The migration from employee labor for repetitive tasks to automation for repetitive tasks predates the minimum wage, or "living wage," debate. All of the influencers into why these migrations exist cover things like human factors (as in repetition, speed, errors) to timing (as in distribution of tasks.) Labor costs are a factor in dealing with various business model needs, but is not the only factor as automations are not cheep either from installation to maintenance.

And as others have pointed out you would have to remove the idea of minimum wage entirely to perhaps make a dent in the migration to automations but it would not stop all of those initiatives.

Just as it did not in other industries that experienced this where their labor worked for far more than minimum wage.

Labor costs and labor capabilities are entirely different things.

To suggest Dunkin did this entirely because of minimum wage in Boston is political argument in hopes your opposition never set foot in an economics classroom.
Never claimed it was singular nor that a higher min wage is the only thing that leads to automation. But it is a simple economic fact that when prices rise for a given item or service the chances of the substitution effect coming into play are greater.

A higher min wage is a drag on entry level jobs, and there's really no getting around that fact.
 
Automation has little to do with the minimum wage. Automation has been happening for a long time and usually has more to do with replacing high wage/high benefit employees than minimum wage employees. The auto industry, the aviation industry and manufacturing in general are good examples where significant high paying jobs have been replaced with robotics/mechanization.
When the cost of automation becomes cheaper than manual labor, you better believe it has something to do with this.
 
Minimum wage increases didn't cause this.

A human being is already far more expensive than a computer. You can do this stuff on an ipad. Even $2/hour is more expensive than the ipad.
If you think the min wage can be doubled (or more) and not have it create a downward pressure on entry-level employment you are sadly mistaken.
 
When the cost of automation becomes cheaper than manual labor, you better believe it has something to do with this.
No argument but it is not minimum wages it is all wages bands especially high paid jobs with lots of benefitss. Many, many more good paying jobs have been eliminated because of automation and it's been happening for years and years and has little to do with the minimum wage increase happening around the country. Automation has come to the point where it is really cheap so now the lower wage groups are prime pickings..
 
When the cost of automation becomes cheaper than manual labor, you better believe it has something to do with this.
It does, except you haven't done the math on this. For the classic McDonald's ordering kiosk, we passed that labor cost long ago. So let's do the math. For the purposes of this, I'm going to be absurdly generous to "your side" of this question.

How much does the kiosk cost? We need a glorified iPad attached to a kiosk, wired to power and connected to our wifi. An ipad pro is about $1000, we'll start there. We need a bigger screen, but we also don't need the "pro" hardware with a stronger CPU. We're not running complex software or multiple programs at once. We're also buying in bulk, we're McDonald's. We aint paying full Apple retail prices per unit. $1000 per unit is probably way too high, but I'm going with it.
$1000 per employee replaced. (don't object yet, this number will change)

Now, we need the software. That's mostly up front and probably peanuts in the long run and grand scheme of this billion dollar business. But let's say that doubles the cost per unit. Absurd, but we'll take it anyway.
$2000 per employee replaced.

Now we gotta install these things. Labor costs, hook it up to power, make sure the wifi works, etc. Let's say that doubles the cost again. Absurd, but we'll take it.
$4000 per employee replaced.

Of course, an employee is faster than the customer on these screens. An employee uses the software all day, they can punch in orders faster than grandma can. So you need more than one unit per employee. Probably at least two, even three. We'll be super generous again and say four units per employee on shift to be replaced.
$16000 per employee replaced.

Oops. Just one shift. The screen doesn't go home, it doesn't eat, it doesn't sleep. It's there all day, every day. Two shifts per day means these four screens actually replace two employees. Of course, employees also take vacations, shift overlap isn't quite so neat, some McDonald's are 24/7, so the real number is probably a little over 2, but we'll stay at 2.
$8000 per employee replaced.

Now, there are ongoing costs to the tablet. (if the tablets ran forever for free, they'd be cheaper than literal slaves!) Electricity is probably too trivial to bother with, ipad pro specs say like 10 watts max. But there's maintenance and replacement. Let's give an utterly outrageous maintenance cost: complete failure of 50% of units every year, requiring complete replacement of the entire kiosk. (including the installation instead of just the tablet, for no good reason) Now, if McDonald's vendor for these tablets actually supplied units with that failure rate, McDonald's would sue the shit out of them and drop the contract, but we'll take it anyway.
$12000 per employee replaced, per year.

At 2000 hours per year, that's a $6/hour employee. Oops, lower actually. Every good business owner knows the actual costs of an employee go beyond just the wage. There's taxes and training and supplies and benefits and all that. But let's pretend that's zero, for no reason.

6 bucks an hour is already below minimum wage and this was based on an outrageously inflated cost estimate for the machine.

There's also our long-term problem. If machines are continuously driving down the value of labor... how long can society survive such a trend? Machines get better, faster, and smarter over time. We do not. I'd be hesitant to point at any occupation and smugly declare it can never be automated.
 
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No argument but it is not minimum wages it is all wages bands especially high paid jobs with lots of benefitss. Many, many more good paying jobs have been eliminated because of automation and it's been happening for years and years and has little to do with the minimum wage increase happening around the country. Automation has come to the point where it is really cheap so now the lower wage groups are prime pickings..
Agreed. It's not unique to low-end jobs. The other, even larger, factor has been offshoring jobs to lower wage countries.
 
For the economics-challenged, let's do a little math, shall we?

Let us suppose you run a small business in some rural town or even a struggling urban area. Maybe it's a bakery; maybe a restaurant; maybe light manufacturing. It doesn't matter. Let's assume you have a couple of highly skilled employees on staff that do the cooking/designing/whatever and that a min wage hike will have no impact on their compensation.

Let's also suppose that to keep your operation running, you need five low wage (min wage) workers on the job at all times. Someone to clean up; a couple of folks to lift things out back, and a couple more handling customer requests out front. You're open Mon-Sat, 8am-6pm, and shut down for two weeks in the summer. Here's the math:

  • Number of min wage employees (5) * current federal min wage of $7.15 * 10 hours a day * 6 days a week * 50 weeks a year

... comes out to roughly $90k. i.e., to staff your store with its min wage labor it costs you $90k in wages (lets leave out other employment costs to keep it simple).

Suddenly, the Social Justice Warriors take command, and they're personally offended by a $7.15/hr min wage. "People must live!" they cry, and they promptly jack the rate up to a politically fashionable $15.00/hr "living" min wage.

Now back to your business. The annual cost of your five min wage workers has gone from $90k to just north of $185k, a $95k hit to your bottom line, i.e. there's $95k less to pay you, the owner of the business. How much do you think you make as a small business owner in a rural town? Or in a run-down city neighborhood? Do you think you'd be able to take a near six-figure hit to your personal income and be just fine? Or will you have to make changes?

The idea that a near 100% hike in low skill labor costs will not have serious economic consequence for everyone connected to (and dependent on) such a business is absurd. Find me someone who claims otherwise, and I'll show you someone who doesn't have the slightest idea what it takes to run a successful business of any size.
 
When corporate and elitist wealth surpasses the benefit of humanity and the greater good, it has become a flawed concept.
That's nice. Try running a business sometime and then get back to us.
 
We should eliminate a minimum wage so businesses can pay the pennies an hour to be competitive with automation....

Did you even think before you made this really stupid argument?
Negative.

What we should do is stop with the half measures, and just allow slavery again.
 
That's nice. Try running a business sometime and then get back to us.

Is running a business more important than making the world a better place?
 
For the economics-challenged, let's do a little math, shall we?

Thanks for the math! Compare your figures to mine in #38. We've long since passed the point where automation costs less.
 
Running a successful business makes the word a better place for those involved with that business: owners, employees, and customers.

Correct, running a business and making a living serves the community. But being greedy for profit to the point of screwing people over is NOT a benefit and has become rampant within the business world.
 
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