What's fair?

[KevinKohler]

Do you have common law marriage rules?

 

[humbolt]

I dunno, Maggie. Lots of excellent advice here. If I were you, I'd offer to sell the place to him. It sounds like you have more than enough on your plate as it is, and to get rid of even one problem once and for all might help, and the extra money might help you with the care of your mother.

 

[calamity]

Okay, so many of you know my mom's boyfriend of 50 years -- John. Without going into details that ya'll may or may not know, here's the short version.

John moved in with mom 9 years ago. He's never paid rent or any part of the utilities. Sometimes, like when she bought a new washer/dryer, he'd chip in half. When he'd win at "the boat," he'd give mom money -- for which she thanked him profusely. "Isn't he wonderful???" Yeah, right.

So now mom's living with me. I don't think she'll ever be going home again. John is still living there. He said, "Maggie, I'll pay the utilities. Just let me know what they are." I plan on selling mom's house in the spring. I'll give John the option of buying it at a large discount . . . just because. But in the meantime, the utilities amount to $180-$275/month depending on the season. That includes grass cutting and snow shoveling.

My thought is that he should be paying her (senior-frozen) real estate taxes and insurance so that it costs mom nothing to let him live there for the time being. That would be, in addition to utilities, $150 a month.

Short version: Do you think that's fair?

Fair? Dude is a free loading POS.

Sell the house out from under him ASAP.

 

[Gardener]

He's 85? Just invite the moocher to dinner, Maggie. Make him something with lots of fat and lots and lots of salt.

Repeat as necessary.

 

[MaggieD]

Do you have common law marriage rules?

No. When Tom moved in with me, I asked the attorney about that, and he said Tom was a guest in my home.

Obviously it matters if you truly think he is dangerous. Court orders don't stop bullets.

How's his health? Think he's going to live long? Do you NEED to sell the house? Is he damaging it? If you don't need to sell the house and he's not damaging it, I'd just leave it alone. If you NEED the $$ (or your Mom does), turn it over to a lawyer to take care of.

As for utilities while he's there?

I suggest you buy your way out of it. Tell him he needs to put the utilities into HIS name, BUT you'll put up the DEPOSIT and pay the existing bill. Make up some "credit" reason you need it out of your name or something. If he bites at that, then you're off the hook. It's between him and the utility company from then on (other than frozen pipes danger I suppose in winter if the power goes off - but he's a senior so that unlikely).

Whose name is the house in? Your's? Your Mom's?

The other thought is if it's your Mom's, and they've been together 50 YEARS, under your state's law's he might have a "palimony" claim, basically claiming he and your mother were, for all practical reasons, "married" - and therefore some community property rights come into play.

You may have a DIFFICULT time selling it because he's in it. And he might do MASSIVE damage if you do an eviction. Again, do not discount that he might really be dangerous.

I gather you're not a person who lives hand-to-mouth, though also aren't rich either. "Comfortable" economically? Consider your and your mother's safety first, not the $$ issues.

If you DO have to pursue legal actions, the one more likely making sense is a retraining/protective order for him to say away from you and your property. Again, talk to a lawyer. If Ill. allows recordings someone without his/her knowledge (Florida does NOT), record any threat he makes for evidence.

FORGET about fairness, Maggie, the real question here is PERSONAL SAFETY. As in YOUR personal physical safety. I suggest you make THAT your focus.

Illinois doesn't allow one-way recordings. Even though IL doesn't have common law marriage or palimony, it's not lost on me that I'm on the wrong end of the sympathy quotient on this one. Although, as long as mom is alive, I'm acting on HER behalf, so that makes it more a 50/50 quotient in that regard. (The house is in a land trust in mom's name with me as contingent beneficiary.)

Fortunately, money isn't the issue. Acrimony is the issue. Bullying is the issue. Principle is the issue. I wish I could rally up some empathy for him, but I can't. It pisses me off that it will COST mom $$ to have him living there, which is why I asked the initial question about taxes/insurance. And even though my attorney told me there's no common law marriage and that a live-in is merely a guest, I'm fairly certain that, in John's case, if he did pursue legal remedy, he would be treated as a tenant and given those rights...even though he's never paid rent.

I'm John's power of attorney, health and property wise. He's put my name on half of his assets as beneficiary, and mom and I are both in his will (and his brother's) when they both die along with his distant nieces. John's healthy as a horse.

I should be resolving this with interpersonal skills. But there's such a large part of me that resents him that that approach is very difficult. I can barely be in the same room with him anymore. He says ugly things, acts atrocious, then apologizes and thinks that's normal. He's so damned cheap he's warped. He's a whack-job to the Nth degree.

His sister died in her home on the bathroom floor because she wouldn't spend $29/month for a First Alert; I finally got his brother into a retirement home by surreptitiously involving social services after he went in the hospital with third-degree burns on his leg from a pizza he was trying to cook. John wouldn't have the stove disconnected. Brother senile living alone in their family home spilled the pizza from the oven onto his bare legs. John sees him once a week, yells and screams at him because he's incontinent and that costs John more money -- even though his brother has over a million dollars. He's punched him a couple times and been stupid enough to tell me he's done it.

I forced him to sell all of his guns, which he has -- other than what I just verified is a bb gun he keeps in mom's garage. I told him if he didn't get rid of them, I would call the cops on him since he doesn't have a license and none of the guns were registered. This was just after his sister died and I cleaned up the family home and general contracted extensive repairs so he could sell it. It was a hoarder home. His sister had $40,000+ in cash in the house. John keeps $50,000+ cash at my mom's. He's a freakin' nutcase.

The only reason he's in my life is because my mom "apparently" loved him. Now? She doesn't care anymore. (She's the sweetest southern belle on planet earth -- everyone loves her. How/why she ended up with this lunatic is beyond me.

"Maggie, since your mom had her surgery, you know no one but me would want her." (After her mastectomy) "Yeah, but I love the dog," after I tried to encourage empathy for my mom by equating her to 'What if Mandy were sick?" When, after mom/John's pushing to send her home after her latest hospital stay, I made the mistake of doing so, he said, "You ought to be paying me $5,000 a month to take care of her."

You know the situation where a teen-aged girl brings a nutcase druggy boyfriend into her family's life that does them and her harm? That's what I feel like with John. He would never be in my life were it not for mom. Never. He hates everyone and everything. Uses people to get what he wants. Poor mouths to everyone so they feel sorry for him. He just got through telling the home that houses his brother that he didn't know how much longer he could afford to keep him there. This because they charge him $40 to clean up his brother when he messes in his pants and they've had to do that four times this month. (He laughed when he told me that.) Brother is 82 years old; his assets pay for his care w/o touching his over one million principle. Oh, God. Sometimes I can't stand it.

Thanks for listening to this diatribe. Your advice is sound and well thought out. I very much appreciate it.

 

[OscarB63]

He's not eligible for Section 8. He's got $600K in the bank and control of his brother's $1.2 million.
Mom has dementia -- so whatever I tell her is what she thinks. It's sad, but true. (She's 86.)

get her to marry him, make sure she is in the will, and then arrange for him to have an "accident".

 

[KevinKohler]

There is also a time limit in most states, before you can enact changes, like requiring him to pay utilities. 90 days, in CT. He will claim residence, since he's lived there, at which point, it's sort of like having a lease, but with the state.



Personally, I'd deliver the news yesterday. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. Unless you buy it.

 

[humbolt]

The old coot belongs in assisted living anyway. Sell the house, give him enough money to get in the door somewhere, and call it a day. He's out of your life, except for maybe visits to your mother. Before he visits, tell him you bought a .45 and a .45-70 just so he understands that if he acts out in any way during a visit, one of those suckers might go off all on it's own. A .38 just isn't big enough to have a proper accident.

 

[Ray410]

It's all business now.

To allow him to remain in the house, the deal should be that your mother, or her estate if she is deceased, will receive at least half of that $600,000 that he has in the bank upon his death. The bequest is consideration for providing him a home and comfort in his aged years.

To accomplish this, you need adequate continuing protections and assurances so it has to be done through and overseen by a suitably rabid lawyer. Perhaps even in the form of a trust.

If he refuses, you will then know that he is just abusing your goodwill and he should be evicted now.

This demand is not unreasonable, you and your mother should be taken care of also, not just him.

 

[MaggieD]

So, I took some's advice here and talked with my attorney. His suggestion was that I make him a good deal on the house and sell it to him. (He's basically a squatter as one poster said, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't have to go through housing court to evict him.) I really doubt he'll be open to that. But I'm going to broach it tomorrow. I'd always intended to offer him a good deal on the house. The attorney said to tell him that's in consideration of that gifts he gave to mom that he somehow thinks were something else. That's what I personally think he should do -- buy the house at a deal. Even though he may have just a few more years, who knows? But he's rejected that.

I'm going to present him with a bill for about $400 tomorrow which is utilities for the month plus taxes and insurance. He'll balk at the insurance and taxes, but I'm just going to play on his conscience. "Why should mom be out money so you can live there?" If he rejects all, I'll get another attorney (my attorney is also his because I referred him there) and evict him in the spring.

**** this ****.

 

[sangha]

So, I took some's advice here and talked with my attorney. His suggestion was that I make him a good deal on the house and sell it to him. (He's basically a squatter as one poster said, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't have to go through housing court to evict him.) I really doubt he'll be open to that. But I'm going to broach it tomorrow. I'd always intended to offer him a good deal on the house. The attorney said to tell him that's in consideration of that gifts he gave to mom that he somehow thinks were something else. That's what I personally think he should do -- buy the house at a deal. Even though he may have just a few more years, who knows? But he's rejected that.

I'm going to present him with a bill for about $400 tomorrow which is utilities for the month plus taxes and insurance. He'll balk at the insurance and taxes, but I'm just going to play on his conscience. "Why should mom be out money so you can live there?" If he rejects all, I'll get another attorney (my attorney is also his because I referred him there) and evict him in the spring.

**** this ****.

I recommend bringing a friend along when you go to talk to him. The friend doesn't have to be right there when you talk to him. Just close enough to see and hear if he decides to go nuclear.

 

[Muhammed]

Short version: Do you think that's fair?

What would be fair is for him to buy or lease the house at fair market value. No discount. Or GTFO pronto.

Let him know in no uncertain terms that he needs to lose his unwarranted sense of entitlement to your mother's property or he will walk all over you.

 

[Juanita]

He's not eligible for Section 8. He's got $600K in the bank and control of his brother's $1.2 million.



Oh, how I would love to do that. I'm NOT fond of the guy . . . but I wouldn't be human if I didn't have some feelings for him over the almost 50 years they've been together. He's a jerk. The only thing I know to say is, "It's complicated." You do "get it" though; and I'm so with you. Mom has dementia -- so whatever I tell her is what she thinks. It's sad, but true. (She's 86.)

With that kind of money he can buy the house right now and your worries over that issue are finished... .

 

[sangha]

I'm John's power of attorney, health and property wise. He's put my name on half of his assets as beneficiary, and mom and I are both in his will (and his brother's) when they both die along with his distant nieces. John's healthy as a horse.

I just had an evil thought

Since you have POA over his account, just withdraw the sale amount for the house from his acct, deposit it in yours and transfer the deed to him.

IOW, just make him buy the house, and then say good bye to him.

 

[Juanita]

If he were her husband, I'd shoot myself. Ha! Seriously, though, if he were her husband, he'd have been paying his share of the bills instead of asking my mom for half the dogfood money when he went to the store. I actually do intend to offer his buying the house at a large discount. I've already mentioned that to him; and, in response, he said, "I'll NEVER buy that house!!! Your mother owes me all the money I've ever given her in the last nine years I've lived here." And, knowing mom has dementia, he adds, "She promised me that when I moved in." (He keeps a supposed list of all of it in his wallet. Showed it to me a while ago.)

He was dying when he moved in -- directly from a two-week hospital stay. Had he moved home with his dysfunctional brother and sister, he'd be dead now. Mom offered to help him get well; and he never left.

If he doesn't want to buy the house, but has enough money to either buy another house or go into a senior complex, I would tell him to get packed and give him a certain amount of time to find another place and move on... She owes him nothing....and neither do you....

 

[Superfly]

Maggie, let us know how it goes. I was going to say exactly what has already been said here - about being careful about letting him stay there too long? I swear, squatters can take over a place if you aren't careful, and have the law on their side.

My husband has an adult son who is allergic to any kind of work. He bounces from friend to friend, until they get tired of him and he moves along. He has a lot of things that he does with his life that we don't agree with, and refuse to have around our daughters, so we don't let him stay here. He called a few months back, wanting to stay, just for a month or two. We considered it, but then were told that after a certain amount of time, people who live in your house, even with your permission, have to be evicted like a tenant. It'd be just like that little bastard to research the law before he gets here, and then squat in our guest room and force us to evict him. Un-uh, noooo way, Jose.

 

[JumpinJack]

Not sure. Real estate taxes - HE can't take a tax deduction on that. Only she can. That's because she's the owner. If they're not paid, SHE would lose the house, while he would just lose his play to stay. Insurance? Likewise, it's protection for the house, which benefits the owner.

Instead of asking him to pay these two things (noting that he hasn't offered, so that tells you lots o'luck in getting him to pay, anyway)...anyway, you'd be better off just charging him rent roughly equaling the total of those two items, which is basically what you're saying. In fact, him paying the taxes and insurance MAY give him a stake in the ownership of the house. I don't know that, but something to think about or check into.

In addition to that, there may be house repairs and maintenance to do, which I guess he won't be paying.

He's a senior citizen? On a fixed income? What a problem on your hands. When you mother passes away, are you sure you want to sell the house to him at a large discount? Sounds like you have that money coming to compensate you all for the years of taxes and insurance and repairs you've paid and will be paying.

 

[MaggieD]

Latest update: yesterday John came over to celebrate his 85th birthday. (I still try hard to put on a front, but it's eating me up alive.) I gave him the utility bills ($263 for the month). He stopped cutting mom's grass 12 years ago, so she paid to have it done. It was $68 this month. He said, "I'm going to cut the grass from now on." (I said no.) He got a call from an electrical supply company telling him he could save money on his electric bill through them and wants to change. (I said no, we signed up with the provider the village negotiated with six months ago.) He wants the extra phones in the house removed (The bill is $46 a month. I said no.) He saw on TV that he can get network channels for free through CLEAR and wants to do that. (I said no.)

I'm not letting him change a freakin' THING in that house unless he buys it. Part of the reason is that if he changes any of this stuff? I'll be the one who sets it all up -- installs the ****ing CLEAR antenna; puts it on mom's credit card to get it for him (he doesn't have one), etc., etc. The "other part" of the reason is that $263 to live in a lovely home with a garage for his car, all lovely furnishings, etc., etc. -- TV's I bought; furniture my mom paid for; etc., etc., is DIRT CHEAP as it is. "You want what you want?? Buy the damned thing." What a miser.

I gave him two cartons of cigarettes and a $17 pound of Fannie May candy he likes for his birthday from all of us. He said, "Well, THAT'S the cheap way to do it, isn't it?"

OMFG. O.M.F.G. help me. :rofl

 

[Lutherf]

Latest update: yesterday John came over to celebrate his 85th birthday. (I still try hard to put on a front, but it's eating me up alive.) I gave him the utility bills ($263 for the month). He stopped cutting mom's grass 12 years ago, so she paid to have it done. It was $68 this month. He said, "I'm going to cut the grass from now on." (I said no.) He got a call from an electrical supply company telling him he could save money on his electric bill through them and wants to change. (I said no, we signed up with the provider the village negotiated with six months ago.) He wants the extra phones in the house removed (The bill is $46 a month. I said no.) He saw on TV that he can get network channels for free through CLEAR and wants to do that. (I said no.)

I'm not letting him change a freakin' THING in that house unless he buys it. Part of the reason is that if he changes any of this stuff? I'll be the one who sets it all up -- installs the ****ing CLEAR antenna; puts it on mom's credit card to get it for him (he doesn't have one), etc., etc. The "other part" of the reason is that $263 to live in a lovely home with a garage for his car, all lovely furnishings, etc., etc. -- TV's I bought; furniture my mom paid for; etc., etc., is DIRT CHEAP as it is. "You want what you want?? Buy the damned thing." What a miser.

I gave him two cartons of cigarettes and a $17 pound of Fannie May candy he likes for his birthday from all of us. He said, "Well, THAT'S the cheap way to do it, isn't it?"

OMFG. O.M.F.G. help me. :rofl

Did you at least get name brand cigarettes or did you stick him with the megacheapies you get on the reservations?

 

[MaggieD]

Did you at least get name brand cigarettes or did you stick him with the megacheapies you get on the reservations?

Now. With everything you know about John, which kind do you think he buys? (I bought him what he buys himself -- Basic Red 100's.)

 

[FederalRepublic]

No. When Tom moved in with me, I asked the attorney about that, and he said Tom was a guest in my home.



Illinois doesn't allow one-way recordings. Even though IL doesn't have common law marriage or palimony, it's not lost on me that I'm on the wrong end of the sympathy quotient on this one. Although, as long as mom is alive, I'm acting on HER behalf, so that makes it more a 50/50 quotient in that regard. (The house is in a land trust in mom's name with me as contingent beneficiary.)

Fortunately, money isn't the issue. Acrimony is the issue. Bullying is the issue. Principle is the issue. I wish I could rally up some empathy for him, but I can't. It pisses me off that it will COST mom $$ to have him living there, which is why I asked the initial question about taxes/insurance. And even though my attorney told me there's no common law marriage and that a live-in is merely a guest, I'm fairly certain that, in John's case, if he did pursue legal remedy, he would be treated as a tenant and given those rights...even though he's never paid rent.

I'm John's power of attorney, health and property wise. He's put my name on half of his assets as beneficiary, and mom and I are both in his will (and his brother's) when they both die along with his distant nieces. John's healthy as a horse.

I should be resolving this with interpersonal skills. But there's such a large part of me that resents him that that approach is very difficult. I can barely be in the same room with him anymore. He says ugly things, acts atrocious, then apologizes and thinks that's normal. He's so damned cheap he's warped. He's a whack-job to the Nth degree.

His sister died in her home on the bathroom floor because she wouldn't spend $29/month for a First Alert; I finally got his brother into a retirement home by surreptitiously involving social services after he went in the hospital with third-degree burns on his leg from a pizza he was trying to cook. John wouldn't have the stove disconnected. Brother senile living alone in their family home spilled the pizza from the oven onto his bare legs. John sees him once a week, yells and screams at him because he's incontinent and that costs John more money -- even though his brother has over a million dollars. He's punched him a couple times and been stupid enough to tell me he's done it.

I forced him to sell all of his guns, which he has -- other than what I just verified is a bb gun he keeps in mom's garage. I told him if he didn't get rid of them, I would call the cops on him since he doesn't have a license and none of the guns were registered. This was just after his sister died and I cleaned up the family home and general contracted extensive repairs so he could sell it. It was a hoarder home. His sister had $40,000+ in cash in the house. John keeps $50,000+ cash at my mom's. He's a freakin' nutcase.

The only reason he's in my life is because my mom "apparently" loved him. Now? She doesn't care anymore. (She's the sweetest southern belle on planet earth -- everyone loves her. How/why she ended up with this lunatic is beyond me.

"Maggie, since your mom had her surgery, you know no one but me would want her." (After her mastectomy) "Yeah, but I love the dog," after I tried to encourage empathy for my mom by equating her to 'What if Mandy were sick?" When, after mom/John's pushing to send her home after her latest hospital stay, I made the mistake of doing so, he said, "You ought to be paying me $5,000 a month to take care of her."

You know the situation where a teen-aged girl brings a nutcase druggy boyfriend into her family's life that does them and her harm? That's what I feel like with John. He would never be in my life were it not for mom. Never. He hates everyone and everything. Uses people to get what he wants. Poor mouths to everyone so they feel sorry for him. He just got through telling the home that houses his brother that he didn't know how much longer he could afford to keep him there. This because they charge him $40 to clean up his brother when he messes in his pants and they've had to do that four times this month. (He laughed when he told me that.) Brother is 82 years old; his assets pay for his care w/o touching his over one million principle. Oh, God. Sometimes I can't stand it.

Thanks for listening to this diatribe. Your advice is sound and well thought out. I very much appreciate it.

He probably is considered a tenant, but you could certainly evict him and sue him if it came down to that.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Maggie, let us know how it goes. I was going to say exactly what has already been said here - about being careful about letting him stay there too long? I swear, squatters can take over a place if you aren't careful, and have the law on their side.

My husband has an adult son who is allergic to any kind of work. He bounces from friend to friend, until they get tired of him and he moves along. He has a lot of things that he does with his life that we don't agree with, and refuse to have around our daughters, so we don't let him stay here. He called a few months back, wanting to stay, just for a month or two. We considered it, but then were told that after a certain amount of time, people who live in your house, even with your permission, have to be evicted like a tenant. It'd be just like that little bastard to research the law before he gets here, and then squat in our guest room and force us to evict him. Un-uh, noooo way, Jose.

We let some "friends" stay in our guest house/apt for "2 weeks" awhile back. After 6 months we had to give them a legal eviction notice and threaten to sue them. If we had physically kicked them off the property, or changed the locks, they could have sued us.