Was the JFK Murder a Successful Coup by Government?

[SenorXm/Sirius]

Not really. The small rogue element in the CIA knew how to do this stuff with minimal involvement, with a very few trusted people.

The Mafia was trusted?

 

[watsup]

The Mafia was trusted?

A very few trusted people. Could have been as few as ONE. Probably was.

 

[SenorXm/Sirius]

A very few trusted people. Could have been as few as ONE. Probably was.

The 1 was Oswald.. All by himself...

 

[watsup]

The 1 was Oswald.. All by himself...

He had no real motivation. He was set up. That’s why he had to be immediately silenced. The other assassins were clearly set up, too. Little or no real motivation in any case.

 

[SenorXm/Sirius]

He had no real motivation. He was set up. That’s why he had to be immediately silenced. The other assassins were clearly set up, too. Little or no real motivation in any case.

His own brother said he had motivation..

 

[dncc]

The big problem (with me anyway) is that the whole "JFK was killed to continue the war" angle is that we didn't take Cuba. It would seem to me that if the idea was to fire more bullets, drop more bombs, squeeze off more missiles, and build more ships, planes, tanks and artillery pieces.... you'd think they'd expand the war to Cuba which would have been a much easier war to fight and win...with more clear objectives etc...

 

[watsup]

His own brother said he had motivation..

What did he say?

 

[Atomic Kid]

Why the hurry to shut him up? Jack Ruby was connected to the Mafia & his phone talked to Giancana the night before.

That's pure horse manure. Do you think that Ruby would have been having the kind of labor troubles he was having at his club if he was truly connected with mob. Yeah, right. The stories about Ruby's mob connections are vastly exaggerated. You think someone like Giancana would have had anything with to with a loud mouthed hothead who couldn't keep a secret cause he always wanted to be seen as being someone in the know? A multi-failure who was deeply in debt to the IRS and who kept his money in the trunk of his car? Not on your life. Ruby died of natural causes and was well on his way on a steady descent to madness while he was being held in prison. If you want to get a real good glimpse into the demons besetting him go into Warren Commission exhibit of the interview the Commission had with him in jail which was led and largely conducted by Justice Warren himself in which Ruby told him that he could hear the voices and screams of young Irish boys being tortured elsewhere in the prison. You really should take the time read it. Because Chief Justice Warren demonstrated some amazing skills in how he so deftly handled Ruby's psychoses whenever they began to manifest themselves during the interview in the way he was able to so skillfully calm and reassure Ruby and get him back on track again whenever those psychoses threatened to tank the interview. It's really quite impressive. He must have been one very formidable district attorney with those questioning skills before becoming a judge

 

[Atomic Kid]

A hooker described a meeting at Ruby's club between them. I believe she had an accident or committed suicide or something.

 

[Atomic Kid]

That is a theory put forward by the Warren Commission, after the subject* was long dead.
*patsy...

His own brother had made nearly the same observations about Lee.

 

[Cordelier]

A hooker described a meeting at Ruby's club between them. I believe she had an accident or committed suicide or something.

That sounds almost as reliable as that insurance salesman whose story kept changing that Jim Garrison based his whole case against Clay Shaw on.... ended up being caught for burglary after the case fell apart.... but oddly enough, Garrison didn't prosecute.

 

[jpevans]

So now we're on to the CIA?.. Next is the FBI? Kgb? The Israelis? East Germans?

See this is the problem with all of these conspiracies. You guys got 10,000 people involved..

That's what makes it a conspiracy. A lone wolf shooter doesn't have a conspiracy, also no reason to silence him. How did Ruby access the police garage with a gun? He wasn't a reporter, he was a man with mafia connections. Mafia, Anti Castro people & rogue CIA. The Mafia was heavily invested in Cuba, RFK was leaning on them & JFK was thinking about pulling out of Vietnam. This was prob'ly a small group. & many peripheral characters met untimely deaths.
The later House assassinations committee investigation strongly suspected Oswald was working for Carlos Marcello, but couldn't prove it.

 

[jpevans]

The 1 was Oswald.. All by himself...

You seem overly invested in the Non conspiracy Theory.
The Conspiracy Theory is for entertainment purposes only. At least until the remaining intel is released. It was suppose to be released in 50 years,

 

[SenorXm/Sirius]

That's what makes it a conspiracy. A lone wolf shooter doesn't have a conspiracy, also no reason to silence him. How did Ruby access the police garage with a gun? He wasn't a reporter, he was a man with mafia connections. Mafia, Anti Castro people & rogue CIA. The Mafia was heavily invested in Cuba, RFK was leaning on them & JFK was thinking about pulling out of Vietnam. This was prob'ly a small group. & many peripheral characters met untimely deaths.
The later House assassinations committee investigation strongly suspected Oswald was working for Carlos Marcello, but couldn't prove it.

Back then anyone could access the garage. There were no metal detection. No IDs needed.. Hell JFK was in an open convertable car.. Try that now..

It was a different world then. More innocent. That assassination changed everything..

 

[Atomic Kid]

That's what makes it a conspiracy. A lone wolf shooter doesn't have a conspiracy, also no reason to silence him. How did Ruby access the police garage with a gun? He wasn't a reporter, he was a man with mafia connections. Mafia, Anti Castro people & rogue CIA. The Mafia was heavily invested in Cuba, RFK was leaning on them & JFK was thinking about pulling out of Vietnam. This was prob'ly a small group. & many peripheral characters met untimely deaths.
The later House assassinations committee investigation strongly suspected Oswald was working for Carlos Marcello, but couldn't prove it.

I can tell you all about Ruby's movements that day if you really want to know.

 

[jpevans]

Back then anyone could access the garage. There were no metal detection. No IDs needed.. Hell JFK was in an open convertable car.. Try that now..

It was a different world then. More innocent. That assassination changed everything..

Not everyone could just walk into the Police Garage, Ruby was a known entity to the cops as an informer. Kennedy wasn't loved in Texas.

 

[jpevans]

I can tell you all about Ruby's movements that day if you really want to know.

Okay...

 

[jpevans]

The big problem (with me anyway) is that the whole "JFK was killed to continue the war" angle is that we didn't take Cuba. It would seem to me that if the idea was to fire more bullets, drop more bombs, squeeze off more missiles, and build more ships, planes, tanks and artillery pieces.... you'd think they'd expand the war to Cuba which would have been a much easier war to fight and win...with more clear objectives etc...

Cuba was not a war, it had been settled in 1958, Castro was in power. The CIA had been trying to assassinate him, including the infamous exploding cigar trick, promoting the Bay of Pigs invasion. The U.S. wasn't going to risk another brush with the Russians with an overt invasion of U.S. troops.
Vietnam was an ongoing Civil War which was very good for the Military Industrial Complex. There was money to be made & the anti Commie Domino Theory was really, really big with the Brass. IMO

 

[dncc]

Cuba was not a war, it had been settled in 1958, Castro was in power. The CIA had been trying to assassinate him, including the infamous exploding cigar trick, promoting the Bay of Pigs invasion. The U.S. wasn't going to risk another brush with the Russians with an overt invasion of U.S. troops.

So they generals/President Johnson/ and the military industrial complex suddenly cared about the downside to a war?

Vietnam was an ongoing Civil War which was very good for the Military Industrial Complex. There was money to be made & the anti Commie Domino Theory was really, really big with the Brass. IMO

Yeah, that's the problem with the whole "JFK was killed to keep the war machinery going" theory.... It would be logical to assert that "two wars are better than one".

 

[dncc]

The 1 was Oswald.. All by himself...

Okay... I agree on that. There is no evidence of a second shooter. It also doesn't make sense that if there were more than one shooter; that Kennedy was only hit twice... Must have been bad snipers....LOL. Also...you multiply the risk of discovery with each new person added to the conspiracy...

That being said....

I think there is more than ample reason to suspect that Oswald had received assurances of assistance after he killed Kennedy. Just going by the known facts of the case. For one thing...he didn't bring his revolver. Seems to me that if he was going to expect a shoot out..he would have brought it with him. Instead he spent a good amount of time going home to get a gun that he could have just brought with him. Additionally he didn't say "I didn't do it"...he said "I'm a patsy". Seems to indicate that he was set up. I know if it was me...I'd be saying "didn't do it".

Also, I'm not in love with the following coincidences.

1. One of the very few people to defect from one super power to another and back (and leave Russia with his wife) during the height of the Cold War just happened to be on the motorcade route? Not sure what to make of it but seems really incredible.
2. The guy on the route just happens to visit Eastern Bloc embassies in Mexico City a few weeks before the assassination. Again...not sure what to make of it but it does seem pretty strange that our sworn enemies are meeting with the guy who happened to kill the President.
3. The CIA--according to PBS--is unclear (to say the very least) about whether they knew that Oswald was visiting the Russian and Cuban embassies in Mexico City.

So what fits? If one thinks it was the CIA (by that I mean THE CIA--with a code name for the operation, budgets, dossiers, etc..)-- that was behind it; forget about Oswald being the shooter. Would you hire him? LOL. No. Now if it was someone who worked for the CIA who was going rogue...that would seem to fit. You wouldn't use the "A-team" snipers who were on the payroll, loyal to the Agency, knew where the bodies were buried (figuratively and literally). I could see someone working for Langley who on their own promised assistance--egress from Dallas--after the assassination and simply turned his back on Oswald. I could also see some low-level operator at the Russian or Cuban embassies promising the same thing.

What is the "down side" for these rogue operators?

1. If Kennedy gets shot and Oswald escapes on his own. ; they "win". The guy they wanted dead was gone. They undoubtedly would have used phony names and covers so there is nobody that could be given up down the road.
2. If Kennedy gets shot and Oswald is captured; they "win". Kennedy is gone and Oswald is incarcerated. They undoubtedly would have used phony names and covers so there is nobody that could be given up under questioning.
3. If Kennedy survives the assassination attempt; they "draw". Oswald is captured (or not) and they simply turn the page.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Okay...

I'm sure you're already aware that Ruby was present at Dallas police station on numerous occasions throughout the 22nd and 23rd, milling about talking to cops and media people, passing out business cards advertising his club to some there, and even pretended to be a reporter at one of the press conferences/briefings. Ruby was familiar many of the cops there and vice versa. Not because he loved cops but because it was good for business. He would treat the policemen on the beat where his club was located with free food and drinks so that they might be more inclined overlook certain activities there. So he was very much in the loop there at the police station and he clearly knew of Captain Fritz's pronouncement to the media of the plan to transfer Oswald to the County jail at 10 am the next day. So if you're the mob's assigned hit guy to silence Oswald you had better be there before 10 am because if there was ever any job you don't want to blow this would be it, right?

So where was Ruby at 10 am the next day? Still in his bed. He got a call around that time from one of the main girls at his club saying she needed money asap so she could pay her rent. Ruby had temporarily closed the club due to the assassination so she didn't have any cash. So Ruby got up and got dressed, stashing about $2000 in cash in one coat pocket and his .38 snubby in it's customary spot ,the righthand coat pocket, gathered up his beloved dachshund Sheba, whom he would jokingly refer to as his wife, got in his car and drove down to the Western Union office about a half block down from the Dallas police station. He filled out a an emergency money transfer to the dancer for $25 dollars, I believe. That transaction was completed at 11:17 am according to the timestamp on the receipt. At 11:22 am Ruby shoots Oswald. That's cutting it pretty close wouldn't you say? Those are not the actions of a man assigned to silence an important witness. Oswald should've already been transferred by that time. So what happened? Fritz and Dallas Police Department lost control of the situation by pandering too much to the media. That's what happened.

Before the transfer was to occur Captain Fritz apparently desired to interview Oswald one last time and he also granted a last minute interview by the Dallas Post Master. Cause why not? Sure he wanted his 5 minutes of fame just like nearly everyone else. So the transfer got pushed back and then the transfer plan hit another snag. The plan was to back an armored truck down the garage rampway and place Oswald in it and take him to the jail with an escort. But the armored truck was about an inch too high for the ramp doorway. So it stayed where it was on the street backed up against the exit ramp doorway, which of course attracted a lot of interest. Surely Ruby noticed the commotion when placing the money transfer and being a guy who always like be where the action is he wasn't gong to miss this so he left his beloved Sheba in the car and began walking the half block toward the Police Station garage entrance. By that point Captain Fritz had come up with a plan B. He sent two officers in a squad car up the down ramp to act as decoy escort for armored truck to divert interest from the crowd gathered there. Meanwhile a couple other detectives would fetch Fritz's own car and back it up to the station house exit and place Oswald in it and quickly whisk him away while simultaneously accommodating the now anxious media that had been gathered in the garage since the early morning awaiting Oswald's promised 10 am transfer desire for some footage and photographs of the transfer.

Whether Ruby came down the garage ramp or he entered the door to the stairway no one is quite sure. But there is at least one indication that he likely had come down the ramp. When the decoy escort car with the two Dallas Police officers inside came up the ramp to the street. The officer watching the ramp had to leave that post to direct traffic so that the car could get into position on the street. Apparently Ruby was close enough to that car to be able to recognize the two Dallas police officers in it, whom he later named during questioning in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. So Ruby could've very easily walked down the ramp while the cop assigned to the ramp was busy holding up traffic for the departing police car. His timing could not have been possibly any better. Given the time it would take for him walk the half block , watch the police car exiting the garage, and then go down the ramp or stairway, if he had wasted a second he likely would've missed Oswald coming out the door.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Okay... I agree on that. There is no evidence of a second shooter. It also doesn't make sense that if there were more than one shooter; that Kennedy was only hit twice... Must have been bad snipers....LOL. Also...you multiply the risk of discovery with each new person added to the conspiracy...

That being said....

I think there is more than ample reason to suspect that Oswald had received assurances of assistance after he killed Kennedy. Just going by the known facts of the case. For one thing...he didn't bring his revolver. Seems to me that if he was going to expect a shoot out..he would have brought it with him. Instead he spent a good amount of time going home to get a gun that he could have just brought with him. Additionally he didn't say "I didn't do it"...he said "I'm a patsy". Seems to indicate that he was set up. I know if it was me...I'd be saying "didn't do it".

First of all Oswald didn't have a driver's license or a car. He dependent on public transportation and other people to get to and from work and being able to visit his wife and child. Oswald had seen the newspaper article outlining the motorcade route on the 21st and saw that it would be passing directly by his place of work and that is likely when he began forming the idea to assassinate Kennedy. But there was just one problem. His rifle was in the Paine's garage in Irving and not at his North Beckley rooming house. So he would have to go there to get it and it was Thursday not Friday. Oswald would always go to the Paine's house on Fridays. Never on a Thursday. Plus he would always call in advance before coming. He didn't go to Irving the previous Friday because Marina was angry with him after finding out he was still using an alias and it was Ruth Paine's husband's birthday and he and Oswald didn't get along that well. So he left directly from the Depository to the Paine house with coworker Wesley Buell Frazier that Thursday without calling Marina beforehand. So his revolver was still in the North Beckley rooming house when he left to go to work at the Depository the next morning on Friday. That's why he didn't have his revolver with him. And just saying you're a patsy doesn't make you one and by the way he grinning when he said it he was clearly enjoying the attention and wasn't really scared or nervous at all.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Also, I'm not in love with the following coincidences.

1. One of the very few people to defect from one super power to another and back (and leave Russia with his wife) during the height of the Cold War just happened to be on the motorcade route? Not sure what to make of it but seems really incredible.
2. The guy on the route just happens to visit Eastern Bloc embassies in Mexico City a few weeks before the assassination. Again...not sure what to make of it but it does seem pretty strange that our sworn enemies are meeting with the guy who happened to kill the President.
3. The CIA--according to PBS--is unclear (to say the very least) about whether they knew that Oswald was visiting the Russian and Cuban embassies in Mexico City.

1. In truth he never actually defected as he never fully renounced his US citizenship. He was still a US citizen the entire time he was in Russia. There wasn't any way Oswald could have possibly known that JFK would be passing by the Depository when he had begun working there. And actually it one of Ruth Paine's neighbor's friend who got Oswald the interview for the job. Oswald no part in finding that job

2. He didn't 'just happened' to visit the Russian and Cuban embassies in Mexico City. He had been planning and preparing for that trip months in advance.

3. I think there is little question that they did know or at the very least should've known. If I recall Oswald's FBI case officer asking Oswald about a trip to Mexico City when he was in custody at the Dallas Police station appeared to had caught him by surprise and he reacted quite angrily to it. Both sides were in the habit of constantly monitoring the comings and goings of each other's embassies in Mexico City.

 

[jpevans]

1. In truth he never actually defected as he never fully renounced his US citizenship. He was still a US citizen the entire time he was in Russia. There wasn't any way Oswald could have possibly known that JFK would be passing by the Depository when he had begun working there. And actually it one of Ruth Paine's neighbor's friend who got Oswald the interview for the job. Oswald no part in finding that job

2. He didn't 'just happened' to visit the Russian and Cuban embassies in Mexico City. He had been planning and preparing for that trip months in advance.

3. I think there is little question that they did know or at the very least should've known. If I recall Oswald's FBI case officer asking Oswald about a trip to Mexico City when he was in custody at the Dallas Police station appeared to had caught him by surprise and he reacted quite angrily to it. Both sides were in the habit of constantly monitoring the comings and goings of each other's embassies in Mexico City.

At least one Oswald visited the Russian Embassy.

 

[Atomic Kid]

At least one Oswald visited the Russian Embassy.

Yeah, the real one. Marina attested to it. She knew he was going to be traveling to Mexico City and why.