WAR.... what is it good for?

[Medusa]

I'm not doing the Turkey thing. You can do your own research and make your decisions on that. Just remember, every country makes mistakes; none's past is perfect.

i agree....

I disagree. Maps change. If a horrible dictator is overthrown and the country fractures and is otherwise incorporated into other countries... it happens. Trying to pretend it does not happen, or will not happen, is pointless. Map changes do and will happen. As a member of NATO, you can be sure that any such change to your country will be voluntary.

turkey is not a dictatorship , so you can see my thread" great middle east"
and i never believe in any nato ,same nato created a new turkey,look at my thread please ,and no country has the right to change other maps.........
No war is just for oil. That's just not even trying to grasp the metaphysical. War is for power. Yes, a nation does need something to get on the top of the list. The US would go broke trying to nation build resourcesless countries. When a country has a genocidal dictator and the resources to nation build, then it's time to act. Watch, in 20 years Iraq will be so much better; it could develop like Japan did.

yes you admitted you just want power sweetyy ,not democracy thx .)))




They are our brothers.

no country is brother in international arena
maybe usa and Uk,maybe.....

 

[ecofarm]

If you are not part of the governed, you do not have proper say in that government.

Bob Marley War live - YouTube

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

I wouldn't say that war is good for "absolutely nothing," but also keep in mind that a lot of the situations that were described in the OP were the results of violence. So in a sense, the main purpose of armed conflict is to combat armed conflict itself.

I agree with the result, but disagree entirely with the process

 

[ecofarm]

yes you admitted you just want power sweetyy ,not democracy thx .)))

We haven't taken any oil. We don't even get contracts for extraction, processing or transport. Europe and China grabbed all that. It's very simple: a country with oil is much more likely to manage development like an Asian Tiger (an economic term). If that country has a genocidal dictator, then leaving it in darkness is wrong. It doesn't cost us that much to get them on their feet, and they have the potential to run. I have hope that Iraq (and Iran) becomes a great nation again, and right now they have every opportunity that the free world can give them (well, Iran doesn't, yet).

I want power, for the people.

no country is brother in international arena

I'm not a nationalist. My geopolitical family is that of free men.

 

[Medusa]

We haven't taken any oil. We don't even get contracts for extraction, processing or transport. Europe and China grabbed all that. It's very simple: a country with oil is much more likely to manage development like an Asian Tiger (an economic term). If that country has a genocidal dictator, then leaving it in darkness is wrong. It doesn't cost us that much to get them on their feet, and they have the potential to run. I have every hope that Iran becomes a great nation again, and right now they have every opportunity that the free world can give them.

I want power, for the people.


no sweetyy ,saddam was executed by us for oil ,as goshin said.maybe it is hard to accept it for u,because you are really a democrat freedom fighter ,but there are the facts


and i am a positive nationalist that just wants to protect her country ,natıonalism is not bad , what is bad is ethnic nationalism that can be compared to racism in terms of discriminations and all kind of garbage.

and you are like me too ,you like your country ,but you think your country works for democracy..........

 

[Daize]

Sorry I have skipped all the previous responses, but here is my take on what war is good for :
Making the companies who provide services and goods used in wartime stinking rich.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

t kept the Muslim expansion from completely overrunning Europe way back in the 13th or 14th century... all you ladies who don't wanna be covered in a tent to go out of the house can say 'thank you War'.

Islamic society would probably be just as modernized as Christian society is now, so no dice.

It won America's independence from England and the tyranny of King George III. Unless you'd like to be ruled by another country 3000 miles across the ocean, that's gotta be good

This is positive.

It won the state of Texas, briefly the Lone Star Republic, from Mexico. Given the condition of Mexico these days, let all the Texans say "Amen!"

Texas sucks, but point taken.

It kept Europe from being plunged into the horror of rule by the Third Reich, the "thousand year Reich" as Hitler sometimes said, and probably saved millions from the gas chambers. Yer welcome.

Actually, Europe would not have had to worry about "plunging into horror" in the absence of war since it was the initiation of war by Hitler that started the conflict.

It's the reason we don't call all of Asia "The Japanese Empire... by the Japanese, for the Japanese, and OF the Japanese". Yer welcome.

And again, Japanese initiation of war in Asia would have eliminated any need for us to worry about that.

The threat of war kept the USSR from turning much of the world into a failed communist dictatorship.

And again, the USSR's threat of war is what made the prospect its communism a problem in the first place.

War kept Saddam from taking over Kuwait and Saudi and the Strait of Hormuz, and ending up in control of a vast part of the world's oil, and a major oil export choke-point. If you drive a car, say thanks.

Actually, war is what started that whole conflict in the first place.

The threat of war has kept Taiwan free from Communist China.... yer welcome.

Actually, the threat of war is what puts its freedom in question in the first place.

I could go on for some time, but I'll stop there. War may do a lot of damage, and not all wars are good wars... but without war, without the ability to wage war or threaten war, much that is good in the world would have perished under the iron heel of the conquerors and tyrants.

Please don't go on. You've inadvertently made Edwin Starr's overly simplistic case for him by completely missing the reality that nearly all the positive things you given war credit for creating were only threatened in the first place because of war or the threat of it.

 

[Gardener]

Islamic society would probably be just as modernized as Christian society is now, so no dice.

Because?

Just because you have some need to support some profoundly illiberal ideologies, that does not mean they will somehow liberalize just because you want them to.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

The population control comment was admittedly a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but has a bit of truth in it as well. Nature's rules are that over-population is kept in check via pesitlence, disease, and discord, so that things don't get out of balance.

As for the question of good and evil- we will have to agree to disagree, because I don't view these issues and black and white.

Since I generally agree with you I will agree to disagree this time but you are wrong, don't make a habit of this. :lol:

 

[PrometheusBound]

Relatively speaking yes... but the general principle still applies. There was an intention to rule Europe at sword's point and impose Islam.

The Ottoman-led jihad peaked on September 11, 1683. The Turks had surrounded Vienna and all Europe was at their mercy. But the rule of war back then was that the commanding general would have to share the loot with his troops if they took the imperial city by storm ,but get it all if the Austrians surrendered. So he waited it out, the troops got bored and careless, and were overwhelmingly defeated by a surprise attack when King John Sobieski of Poland arrived the next day. No wonder that bin Laden chose this date to correct the previous jihad's defeat caused by materialistic greed and lack of religious commitment.

 

[lizzie]

Since I generally agree with you I will agree to disagree this time but you are wrong, don't make a habit of this. :lol:

Right and wrong are all a matter of opinion.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Do you favor intervention if a country is committing genocide? It seems to me that human rights, at some point, becomes more important than national sovereignty.

Genocide is caused by cowardice. No matter what the odds, the target group can make it too costly to wage genocide against. Israelis would have made Hitler look like some careless leader who provoked too much disturbance inside Germany, making him too unpopular to start World War II. In the 90s, it sickened me to see young Kosavar men running away from a fight with the Serbs when we almost sent our own young men in to die taking the cowards' place.

 

[evangambit]

Genocide is caused by cowardice. No matter what the odds, the target group can make it too costly to wage genocide against. Israelis would have made Hitler look like some careless leader who provoked too much disturbance inside Germany, making him too unpopular to start World War II. In the 90s, it sickened me to see young Kosavar men running away from a fight with the Serbs when we almost sent our own young men in to die taking the cowards' place.

I've never seen someone blame the victims for the crime... until now. The Jews should have prevented the Holocaust??

 

[ArizonaIrish]

Islamic society would probably be just as modernized as Christian society is now, so no dice.

No. Where Islam has asserted itself, inteellectual life an dliberty have died. Islam never had a Reformation, nor a Renaissance. The brief flowering of letters in Spain and sub-sahara Africa was extinguished long before the Moors were driven from Spain. Islam does not have a theology, or competing theologies: it has a single belief that the Koran is the word of God.

Bernard Lewis, the emminent expert on Islamic and Turkish affairs, wrote a great book, easily readable:

What Went Wrong?: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response

You cannot find a nation, with an Islamic majority, that would be considered free and most are failed states economically.

 

[ArizonaIrish]

Right and wrong are all a matter of opinion.

No. that is the very heart of moral relativism. The position you state tells us that Nambla has a case they can make.

There are moral absolutes: murder is wrong, theft is wrong. The 10 commandments make a good case for these moral absolutes.

 

[Goshin]

Touché, it appears that my attempt to classify "good" and "bad" wars was either over simplified or simply wrong. You could, I suppose, looking at the end result, claim the revolution, regardless of intent, was good for humankind as a whole, not just the US; such an argument is probably correct, though it does, as you've pointed out, ignore the intent in determining the moral "goodness" of a war.

If you were to classify the Revolutionary War without knowing of its success or impact on the world, would you consider it a good or bad war?

That would depend on whether I was a Rebel or a Tory.


I'm being serious. Often enough, "good" and "bad" in terms of a war are a subjective question and depends on which end of the cannon you are on.

 

[Goshin]

I felt the song pertained to the Vietnam War which was a war for absolutely nothing!

I number among my friends a couple of Vietnam vets who would strongly disagree with that statement.

 

[Goshin]

but just that part was not a defense,goshin .)))


but you are honest and smart to accept its reason :mrgreen:

Yes'm, I thought I was clear that that Gulf I was a war the US fought out of self-interest and a concern for the oil supply issues. It was not done out of love for Kuwait or Saudi.

 

[lizzie]

No. that is the very heart of moral relativism. The position you state tells us that Nambla has a case they can make.

There are moral absolutes: murder is wrong, theft is wrong. The 10 commandments make a good case for these moral absolutes.

Morals are social constructs, and are only valid because a majority agrees. I personally don't believe that God is much concerned about the affairs of men, except in that it moves and motivates us in specific directions, and the consenquences of those directions may be positive, negative, or both.

 

[Carleen]

I number among my friends a couple of Vietnam vets who would strongly disagree with that statement.

I know how you felt when you came home and the country turned its back on you. That was terrible, but the war was a no win situation and I humbly say to you I appreciate your commitment. The war was wrong but everyone who sacrificed their lives and came home broken did it because they believed in their country, not in this war.

 

[Medusa]

Yes'm, I thought I was clear that that Gulf I was a war the US fought out of self-interest and a concern for the oil supply issues. It was not done out of love for Kuwait or Saudi.

you are like cotton :mrgreen:

but usa was too late to end the bosnian genocide too......

 

[Goshin]

you are like cotton :mrgreen:

but usa was too late to end the bosnian genocide too......

Occasionally we do act out of genuine altruism.... and it usually doesn't work out too well. Yes, the whole Bosnian/Albanian thing went on too long and was really terrible.

 

[Goshin]

I know how you felt when you came home and the country turned its back on you. That was terrible, but the war was a no win situation and I humbly say to you I appreciate your commitment. The war was wrong but everyone who sacrificed their lives and came home broken did it because they believed in their country, not in this war.

Beg pardon ma'am, I was a bit young for Vietnam service, I was talking about my friends.

One of my buddies who passed on recently was Spec Ops in Vietnam. He worked very closely with a Hmong village and was adopted by them. He felt great kinship for them, and when he was ordered to leave Vietnam and leave the Hmong to their fate at the hands of the VC, he was extremely upset and bitter and never really got over it.

Another friend was an officer who liased with ARVN and effectively ran whole battalions as a 1LT. He is of the opinion that the war need not have been lost, but for lack of political will among the American people and excessive politics intruding into tactics and strategy.


The idea behind Vietnam was to prevent the further spread of dictatorial Communism in Asia. As such it was a laudable goal, but poorly executed, IMO.

 

[Medusa]

Occasionally we do act out of genuine altruism.... and it usually doesn't work out too well. Yes, the whole Bosnian/Albanian thing went on too long and was really terrible.

because those people had no oil , ,goshin .)))))

 

[johnny_rebson]

all it takes is a little select editing for this:

"War. What is it GOOD FOR?

Absolutely nothin', say it again...."

To become this "War. Is it good" Absolutely. Say it again".

War is good for defending our access to oil.

I bet your car won't work without oil.