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War on Terror is bogus

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Gandhi>Bush

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teacher said:
The same voilence they use? We go out of our way to limit civilian harm. They make them their primary target.

Violence is violence, in my opinion. We're showing these people that we use violence to solve problems too, and on top of that we're "The Greatest Country in the World."

Remember the first Trade center bombing? They hate us enough allready.

A war will not unamake that hatred. It will enforce it. It gives their hatred something to do.

If they had a nuke instead of hijacked planes it would allready be done.

But it hasn't been, therefore now is when we must take the proper steps to prevent such things.

[qutoe]I agree. But the Arab women see that and then make the mistake of saying something out loud then their answer will be a beating and Koran quotes about the place of a woman. And if the women asked for our help what would you do? I say we are doing it now.[/quote]

If the women asked for my help, well I would have to analyze her exact situation, and then act. Could you tell me the last time Bush and the Ayatollah of Iran had a little chat? About anything? From women's rights to the Red Sox? Anything?

My God we have been doing this for decades.

In Iran? In Iraq?

Who was there for the Tsunami victims. How much money? And yet some Muslim Cleric said the Tsunami was God punishing Christians. When the majority of victims were Muslim.

As I recall, it was Michael Savage talking about how God wanted to cleanse the filth of Indonesia...

We have been feeding and immunizing the world, building schools and hospitals, teaching agriculture and birth control. Remember foreign aid? Who is the first country to show up at a earthquake with doctors and dogs and rescue crews? We are Americans and we do this of our free will. The unwashed masses will never see us feeding the starving. Think that would lead on Al Jazera. Think a old Muslim man would point that out to his room full of future suicide bombers.

Do you think that old man would have very many students if it was seen everywhere that there is no such thing as "The Great White Satan?"

Boy them Arabs sure liked us when we were kicking Saddam out of Kuwait.We liberated a whole country, should get good PR out of that. No, we are an ally of Israel and we are not Muslim. All the charity and good works will not change that. Your heart is in the right place Gandhi, but beaters of woman take that for weakness and will use that against us

You call a war postive PR? It's easy to bend a war into a Jihad. Can you tell me how you bend a white man helping a muslim child into a white devil?
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Violence is violence, in my opinion.

Is the violence of a police sniper taking the head off of a hostage taker who has allready killed and says he will again the same violence as the hostage taker?
We're showing these people that we use violence to solve problems too, and on top of that we're "The Greatest Country in the World."

Is there any point when peaceful means have been exhausted?

A war will not unamake that hatred. It will enforce it. It gives their hatred something to do.

Again, the hate is allready there. Perpetuated by old men fearing loss of control and teaching the Koran and hatred for Jews and America and nothing else to pliable young minds. With their stranglehold on information how does our many and real good deeds get to the public?

But it hasn't been, therefore now is when we must take the proper steps to prevent such things.

Of course here I say in my opinion we are doing exactly that. Too bad it had to come to this.

[qutoe]I agree. But the Arab women see that and then make the mistake of saying something out loud then their answer will be a beating and Koran quotes about the place of a woman. And if the women asked for our help what would you do? I say we are doing it now.

If the women asked for my help, well I would have to analyze her exact situation, and then act. Could you tell me the last time Bush and the Ayatollah of Iran had a little chat? About anything? From women's rights to the Red Sox? Anything?

The Ayatollah talking about womens rights. And I thought my sense of humor was bent. Good one.



As I recall, it was Michael Savage talking about how God wanted to cleanse the filth of Indonesia...


No totally different story. Besides Savage is a loon.
Do you think that old man would have very many students if it was seen everywhere that there is no such thing as "The Great White Satan?"

No, of cource not. But how do we get the news past that old man?
You call a war postive PR?
It was to the Kuwaities.
It's easy to bend a war into a Jihad.
To these people everything bends easily into Jihad.
Can you tell me how you bend a white man helping a muslim child into a white devil?
[/QUOTE]

True story. A friend of mine on duty in Afghanistan had given a young boy a soccer ball. If you don't know the family's and Friends of overseas soldiers often send gifts for the children there. Such was the case. My friend had left to return later to see a man take the ball away and begin beating the boy. I won't say what my friend did but he is a white man who helped a Muslim child but don't think for a moment that a Mullah wouldn't try to turn that around. Their very religion dictates convert or kill all. No abundance of kindness, aid, or Hallmark cards is ever going to change that. I agree with you to show them our best side can do wonders but they sensor that. We dropped food in Afghanistan and the Mullahs told their people it was poisoned. Your title says pacifist. If I came across someone hurting you or yours my very nature would make me help. With violence if necessary. Would then violence still be wrong. If you came across me or mine in peril and you did nothing I would understand because it is your nature. I would have no respect for your character but yet will defend your right to be so inclined. Please believe folks like me believe we do a just thing overseas. Not for imperialism, oil, or other such nonsense the left tries to pin on us. I believe in my heart it is a good thing.

Free the woman.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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teacher said:
Is the violence of a police sniper taking the head off of a hostage taker who has allready killed and says he will again the same violence as the hostage taker?

Their both killing something aren't they?

Is there any point when peaceful means have been exhausted?

Possibly. I haven't gone over every single far fetched hypothetical situation in the world yet.

Again, the hate is allready there. Perpetuated by old men fearing loss of control and teaching the Koran and hatred for Jews and America and nothing else to pliable young minds.

Of course the hate is already there, I'm talking about removing.

With their stranglehold on information how does our many and real good deeds get to the public?

You think they see nothing? You think all current events come from the local bomb vest vendor?

Of course here I say in my opinion we are doing exactly that. Too bad it had to come to this.

"This" is a war that encourages terrorist actions. It makes them want to hurt us more. It will do make progress and perhaps will delay such an attack a year, two at most, and then they will strike again because it only takes so long for a child to become a man seeking revenge for his father. Because when he's that young, no matter what he sees his father do, he will not erase seeing a white man from America put a bullet through his father's head.

The Ayatollah talking about womens rights. And I thought my sense of humor was bent. Good one.

So... the answer to my question is never? Bush has never shook his hand and sat down and talked to the guy? That says something I think. It says "Screw Communication."

No totally different story. Besides Savage is a loon.

Agreed.

No, of cource not. But how do we get the news past that old man?

If you do enough, that old man will not be able to hold it all back.

It was to the Kuwaities.



To these people everything bends easily into Jihad.

Everything? I don't think so.

True story. A friend of mine on duty in Afghanistan had given a young boy a soccer ball. If you don't know the family's and Friends of overseas soldiers often send gifts for the children there. Such was the case. My friend had left to return later to see a man take the ball away and begin beating the boy.

You don't think that boy knows now that his father is wrong. Do you know the wrath of a child when you take away a toy? I'm sure you do you have children :lol: . The child was given a toy by a great white satan. His father beats him for receiving a toy.

Let's examine the next part of this scenario:

I won't say what my friend did but he is a white man who helped a Muslim child but don't think for a moment that a Mullah wouldn't try to turn that around.

You won't say what your friend did? That sounds like it wasn't very pleasant. Let us hope the child did not see. If he did, all the good your friend did was immediately undone. At such a young age and that particular moment he is experiencing alot of conflicting views. Daddy is good vs. Daddy beats me for recieving toys. White man is evil vs. White man gives me toys. These scenarios are immediately won for the wrong side if he sees the white man, not that he did just "if", harm daddy. The mullah would try turn that around, but he would not succeed. No child will fall for such logic as, "He gave you a toy, therefore he is evil."

Their very religion dictates convert or kill all. No abundance of kindness, aid, or Hallmark cards is ever going to change that.

Christians changed that. It was called the Renassaince. A time of artists and beauty and genuine happiness brought Christians away from such things. Just so you know, one can find the same convert or kill practices in the bible. One can also find "Do not harm anything that Allah has created," in the Koran. This can be beaten, but not by hatred.

I agree with you to show them our best side can do wonders but they sensor that. We dropped food in Afghanistan and the Mullahs told their people it was poisoned.

I guarantee you some one ate from those boxes and felt fine.

Your title says pacifist. If I came across someone hurting you or yours my very nature would make me help. With violence if necessary. Would then violence still be wrong. If you came across me or mine in peril and you did nothing I would understand because it is your nature. I would have no respect for your character but yet will defend your right to be so inclined.

Make no mistake if were to see someone getting hurt and it meant putting foot to ass to help I would do it. This is a very small scale not a global at least 20,000 civilian lives getting killed. There is a difference on a small scale between violence and killing. There isn't on a larger scale like war. I know what the word "Pascifist" implies, so perhaps I should just change it to anti-war? I don't know. I am not indifferent to the suffereing of someone though. I would not stand idly by saying "please stop" if I saw someone getting hurt.

Please believe folks like me believe we do a just thing overseas. Not for imperialism, oil, or other such nonsense the left tries to pin on us. I believe in my heart it is a good thing.

Free the woman.

I believe in my heart that killing is wrong. I'm sure in your heart you have good intentions, I don't doubt that at all. I'm just not sure that your means will produce the end you desire.

God this is a long post. Forgive the length if it is a problem, terribly sorry.

This is terribly interesting! I love it when my ideas are truly challenged!
 

RightinNYC

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Their both killing something aren't they?

Possibly. I haven't gone over every single far fetched hypothetical situation in the world yet.

No. The police sniper is saving a life. The two are not at all analogous.

Here's a situation that isn't far fetched at all, it happens fairly often:

Terrorists take hostages, announce they want something that is impossible to get, and that they'll kill one hostage every hour that they don't get what they want. The terrorists are each marked by police snipers. Do they kill the (lets say 3) terrorists, and save all the innocent lives, or let the terrorists kill all (lets say 20) hostages, and then come outside and shoot it out with the cops?

Violence IS an answer to many, many questions, whether or not you might see it that way.
 

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For brevity's sake will omit the quotes and such.
Gandhi. Was about to take you to the woodshed for being a bad pacifist until I saw anti-war note. That works. Nice catch on what my Friend did. What he did is not what I would do. Also was not the kids father. My Friend is a bit of a hot head and I think he blew that one. The point being we are there and can make the examples you speak of. And we are most of the time. But the old men are still there. It will take time for their influence to fade. Generations. We liberated Kuwait. That was a nice start. Then the towers fell. That kicked this whole thing up a notch. Showed us how serious they are. Very serious if they get nukes. One mushroom cloud in this country and the liberals would be screaming at Bush "why didn't you do more"? Would that all you speak of be possible and I speak of unnecessary. But time is running out. Nuclear proliferation abounds. In my opinion another 20 years of peaceful means will only get us closer to terrorists having nukes. It may seem a strange concept to go to war to show others we care for their well being. The methods you speak of while chaste and moral may not seep through to those fast enough or in great enough quantity to make the difference in time. Unfortunately in this case to ere the wrong way means a nuke in our back yard. I feel we have to play this one the hard way. Iraq people holding up their ink stained fingers under threat of death shows me we just might be onto something here. And yea those kids will pout for days over a toy.


Free the woman. Then they will take care of the bad boys.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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teacher said:
The point being we are there and can make the examples you speak of. And we are most of the time. But the old men are still there. It will take time for their influence to fade. Generations.

For all of the successful examples we leave, through war we have successfully left at least 20,000 civilian casualties. It will take time for to get the old ideas completely out, but it won't take long for the new ideas to get in.

In my opinion another 20 years of peaceful means will only get us closer to terrorists having nukes.

In my opinion, in ten years of war the terrorists will hit us again and hit us hard. Nukes, planes, suicide bombers in America... This war is only perpetuating terrorism.

It may seem a strange concept to go to war to show others we care for their well being. The methods you speak of while chaste and moral may not seep through to those fast enough or in great enough quantity to make the difference in time. Unfortunately in this case to ere the wrong way means a nuke in our back yard. I feel we have to play this one the hard way. Iraq people holding up their ink stained fingers under threat of death shows me we just might be onto something here. And yea those kids will pout for days over a toy.


Free the woman. Then they will take care of the bad boys.

Of course the Iraqis are happy. They have democracy now, but at what cost? Many have died, and infinetly more damaging, many have seen violence change so much. Many now see that as the only way change things. That is the most troubling part of the whole scenario.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Of course the Iraqis are happy. They have democracy now, but at what cost? Many have died, and infinetly more damaging, many have seen violence change so much. Many now see that as the only way change things. That is the most troubling part of the whole scenario.

Or maybe they see their hard earned through violence freedom puts them in a position where violence can now be avoided because they have the fair rule of law. Much as we did tearing away from the British in the 1700's and look at what we have accomplished.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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teacher said:
Or maybe they see their hard earned through violence freedom puts them in a position where violence can now be avoided because they have the fair rule of law. Much as we did tearing away from the British in the 1700's and look at what we have accomplished.

I really don't think, by my own just-a-regular-guy evalutation, that that is what this culture sees.
 

teacher

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Gandhi>Bush said:
I really don't think, by my own just-a-regular-guy evalutation, that that is what this culture sees.
Then Gandhi, would not this be a perfect time to take a page from your book and with compassion, caring, and education help them to see the potential of their future. Sure it took war to get them here but I ask you. Is it ever to late to try your methods no matter what the starting point? Stick and then carrot perhaps?

Free the Arab woman. (I bet they look good in shorts)
 

Gandhi>Bush

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I believe any situation, given enough analysis can be worked out peacefully. I can't testify to this as of right now, but I am working on my degree in Peace and Conflict Studies.
 

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You failed to mention that Porter Goss - the CIA head - has claimed that the War in Iraq (supposedly a facet of the War on Terror) has boosted the number of terrorists internationally by locally alienating Iraqis as well as providing vindication for extremist ideals and jihad.

Despite the declining condition in Iraq and Afghanistan, we look to the White and say...

...[/I]put on a happy face!

- Holocaustpulp
 

teacher

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holocaustpulp said:
You failed to mention that Porter Goss - the CIA head - has claimed that the War in Iraq (supposedly a facet of the War on Terror) has boosted the number of terrorists internationally by locally alienating Iraqis as well as providing vindication for extremist ideals and jihad.

Despite the declining condition in Iraq and Afghanistan, we look to the White and say...

...[/I]put on a happy face!

- Holocaustpulp

Of course. Alienating the minority that has lost it's strangle hold of power. But what really pisses them off is their loss of absolute control over the women. Try not to look at this from a American political point of view. Try these two perspectives.
1. You are a minority Sunni who has lost his privileged position of power over the majority at their expense. You can no longer rape and rob at will. Your women are voting and learning to read. Your narrow minded religious beliefs are no longer enforced by the government. Your screwed. And maybe now your lifetime of evil is catching up with you.
2. You are a woman who no longer has to wear a black tent in the noonday sun. You no longer fear Saddam's sons or their ilk taking you off the street for their private plaything. You get to read, go to school, work, vote, hold public office, even teach. Those men who beat you with sticks now have something to consider before whacking you.
An increase in the upset. I dare say that is true. Would you rather see Bush succeed and the quality of life for the vast majority of Iraq people improve drastically? Or Bush fail and see the majority of Iraq people put back into a savage, oppressive dictatorship? I think you could care less about the condition of millions and are more concerned about "your political side winning" and seeing Bush with egg on his face. Petulant small minded selfish little people.

Free the Arab women. Imagine the first American interview with a free Iraqi woman describing the positive change in her life.
 

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I love when people make general statements, such as the War on Terror is bogus. I agree that our justification for going to war in Iraq is/was bogus but the War on Terror certainly is not. I think we have to fight the War on Terror everyday but we should be careful on how we define 'Terror'. Our justification was wrong for the War in Iraq, I don't blame Bush - I blame the intelligence that was presented to us by many countires including our own. The war on terror is more than the war in Iraq. It includes securing our own boarders, setting public policy, maintaining dipolmatic relations with China/North Korea AND fighting the everyday fight against known terrorist groups.
 

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Cougar said:
I love when people make general statements, such as the War on Terror is bogus. I agree that our justification for going to war in Iraq is/was bogus but the War on Terror certainly is not. I think we have to fight the War on Terror everyday but we should be careful on how we define 'Terror'. Our justification was wrong for the War in Iraq, I don't blame Bush - I blame the intelligence that was presented to us by many countires including our own. The war on terror is more than the war in Iraq. It includes securing our own boarders, setting public policy, maintaining dipolmatic relations with China/North Korea AND fighting the everyday fight against known terrorist groups.

Welcome to Debate Politics!

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here. Though I do hold Bush accountable for at least part of the Iraq blunder. The Captain of the ship so to speak.
 
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Some innocent civilians were harmed in the war but it is nothing compared to the rape torture and sub human things they were subjected to when Saddamm was in power.
 

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guns_God_glory said:
Some innocent civilians were harmed in the war but it is nothing compared to the rape torture and sub human things they were subjected to when Saddamm was in power.

Welcome to Debate Politics!
 

Gandhi>Bush

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guns_God_glory said:
Some innocent civilians were harmed in the war but it is nothing compared to the rape torture and sub human things they were subjected to when Saddamm was in power.

Some? 20,000 is "some?" Saddam is bad guy. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an argument otherwise around here, but 20,000 civilians is quite a cost for doing anything.

A lesser body count is still a body count, and this time it's on American hands, the hands of democracy and freedom.

By the way, 20,000 is confirmed deaths. It has been estimated to be around 100,000.
 
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There were alot of casulties in the fight against terrorism and the fight to bring democracy to Iraq. You have to wonder how many people would be dead if we had let Saddam stay? Also can you really put a price on the basic rights like freedom of speech and religion? These rights were not given to the Iraqi people in Saddams reign and now thanks to us they have gotten all the rights every human should have and a goverment to defend those rights.
 

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Re: War on Terror is bogus/#11

there is no american empire
what rome did was empire
while we both make the mistake of trying to spread our ideals we have yet to concure and make provinces or states. I do believe we should leave but not because we are concurring but to say if you hate us then live without us. which is illogically but if we can get it to work and i hope we do we should use it
 
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We can fight them on our soil, or we can fight them on their soil.
It's a simple decision, really.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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...or we can undo why they hate us and not fight at all...
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
...or we can undo why they hate us and not fight at all...

Hatred towards ones brother was born in the middle east, nothing has changed through the course of history. The United States is merely the flavor of the month for these particular "Islamic based" terrorists.
 

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Well maybe the United States could do more to ensure that the "flavor" of next month, that would probably be our children, does not have to fear such hatred.

If you think a war is how to get something like that done, I believe you are wrong. You will never kill every terrorist in the world. A war will only spread terrorism.

Think of it.

You yourself said that this has been going on throughout history. Has anyone before tried to unmake the hatred within our current "enemy?"
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Well maybe the United States could do more to ensure that the "flavor" of next month, that would probably be our children, does not have to fear such hatred.

If you think a war is how to get something like that done, I believe you are wrong. You will never kill every terrorist in the world. A war will only spread terrorism.

Think of it.

You yourself said that this has been going on throughout history. Has anyone before tried to unmake the hatred within our current "enemy?"

You can't change the mind of people like that. They have it banged so hard into their head they don't know anything else. I agree about the war but what else can we do. We sure as heck can't stop and say okay you win go ahead and blow stuff up. Atleast this way we make it hurt.
 
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