War on Terror is bogus

[Gandhi>Bush]

I'm not saying that there aren't any degrees of what is happening. I'm saying that we can't be on the same side of the spectrum as our "enemies" and say that they are wrong and that they are evil when we ourselves are on the same side of morality-meter.

I understand that beheading someone and wiping the remnants of a period one's face are the same thing. I'm saying that both are terrible things to do, and if we are to be the moral crusaders of the world we cannot be reduced to any form of evil no matter how our enemies compare to us.

Forgive me for my obstinance, it's not my intention to be like that.

 

[Pacridge]

I'm not saying that there aren't any degrees of what is happening. I'm saying that we can't be on the same side of the spectrum as our "enemies" and say that they are wrong and that they are evil when we ourselves are on the same side of morality-meter.

I understand that beheading someone and wiping the remnants of a period one's face are the same thing. I'm saying that both are terrible things to do, and if we are to be the moral crusaders of the world we cannot be reduced to any form of evil no matter how our enemies compare to us.

Forgive me for my obstinance, it's not my intention to be like that.

I don't completely disagree with you here. But I'm left thinking if the tactics we're currently using are unacceptable- how would you propose we deal with terrorist?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Any tactics involving abuse, mentally, physically, emotionally, menstrual-cyclely.... are unacceptable.

Time should be spent on showing them that we are the same and that the Great White Satan of the West is not evil, not reinforcing it. Anything that shows them decency and compassion and (not to sound to much like a raving idealist hippy) love.

In WWI we treated German soldiers so well in prisons that during WW2 they weren't as reluctant to surrender. That saved lives, yes?

 

[Pacridge]

Any tactics involving abuse, mentally, physically, emotionally, menstrual-cyclely.... are unacceptable.

Time should be spent on showing them that we are the same and that the Great White Satan of the West is not evil, not reinforcing it. Anything that shows them decency and compassion and (not to sound to much like a raving idealist hippy) love.

In WWI we treated German soldiers so well in prisons that during WW2 they weren't as reluctant to surrender. That saved lives, yes?

So you oppose fight fire with fire-ever?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Yes, I oppose such anti-productive and anti-progressive ideas like fighting fire with fire.

 

[akyron]

I saw no claim to a lesser evil being "good".
You draw a wide stroke with that paintbrush to compare beheadings to flushing paper as an interrogation technique.


Some pretty weird stuff is being talked about although nothing credible has arisen that I have witnessed.

FBI agent related a detainee's account of an incident involving a female U.S. interrogator.

"While the guards held him, she removed her blouse, embraced the detainee from behind and put her hand on his genitals. The interrogator was on her menstrual period and she wiped blood from her body on his face and head," the memo stated.


What are they expecting them to say with such punishing interrogation techniques anyway? I wonder if the prisoners were screaming behead me! behead me! during this if any of this doubtful and strange behavior is true....

By the way that that menstrual incident is just hearsay at this point. Just random complaining from people caught with AK47s on a battlefield.
Nothing confirmed.
To get all worked up over it would be foolish (i.e. Koran flushing. That guy recanted his earlier statment)

 

[akyron]

Yes, I oppose such anti-productive and anti-progressive ideas like fighting fire with fire.

Yeah. I agree a new approach is needed.
We have to take out all the madrassas and in 60 years there will be peace by default.


Send them to school instead where they can learn something more useful and less psychotic.
People that say The president or the US created terrorists must be uninformed of these hate schools that begin training at kindergarden age.

Insurgent class of 2015

 

[alienken]

Have you heard about the latest FBI report? There are still investigations pending about prisoner abuse at Guantanamo. They're not investigating it because everything looks perfect, ehh?

FBI investigates alot of things. How about we discuss this IF they find wrong doing. For now, I think our U.S. military gets the benefit of the doubt. If it sounds like I'm taking sides, it's because I am. Which side are you on?

 

[akyron]

FBI investigates alot of things. How about we discuss this IF they find wrong doing. For now, I think our U.S. military gets the benefit of the doubt. If it sounds like I'm taking sides, it's because I am. Which side are you on?

Amen brother.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

FBI investigates alot of things. How about we discuss this IF they find wrong doing. For now, I think our U.S. military gets the benefit of the doubt. If it sounds like I'm taking sides, it's because I am. Which side are you on?

The side of truth.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5041397,00.html

``I kept telling him, no I didn't receive training. I was crying and finally I told him I did receive the training. My hands were tied behind my back and my knees were on the ground and my head was bleeding. I was in a lot of pain, so I said I had (military) training. At that point, with all my suffering, if he had asked me if I was Osama bin Laden, I would have said yes. What is my crime? Because of the United States, my hand is handicapped. I can't work. I can't do anything because of my hand. Am I an enemy of the United States?'' - One prisoner complaining he was allegedly abused and forced into confessing.

``The soldiers here even threatened to kill me. ... (One) started threatening me. He said 'I will cut off your head.''' - A prisoner who complained of mental and physical abuse.

``Just like the Americans brought me, it was exactly the same thing they (Taliban) did to me.'' - A prisoner who said he was drafted into the Taliban army and equated it to his forced removal from Afghanistan by the Americans.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=642873

One detainee, whose name and nationality were blacked out, along with many of names in the transcripts, said his medical problems from alleged abuse have not been taken seriously. "Americans hit me and beat me up so badly I believe I'm sexually dysfunctional," he said.

Don't get me wrong. I don't swallow all of these allegations whole just because I read it on the net, but these are serious charges and serious testimonies that are not to be taken lightly.

I don't have anything against the majority of the American soldiers, but giving the benefit of the doubt so easily simply because they are of my nationality seems just as insane as believing everything I read to be true.

 

[Dozer]

The state-sponsored schools will never tell you this, but governments routinely rely on hoaxes to sell their agendas to an otherwise reluctant public. The Romans accepted the Emperors and the Germans accepted Hitler not because they wanted to, but because the carefully crafted illusions of threat appeared to leave no other choice.
Our government too uses hoaxes to create the illusion that We The People have no choice but the direction the government wishes us to go in.

 

[RightinNYC]

The side of truth.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5041397,00.html







http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=642873



Don't get me wrong. I don't swallow all of these allegations whole just because I read it on the net, but these are serious charges and serious testimonies that are not to be taken lightly.

I don't have anything against the majority of the American soldiers, but giving the benefit of the doubt so easily simply because they are of my nationality seems just as insane as believing everything I read to be true.

Each one of those is an allegation. Nothing more. They are being investigated, but until wrongdoing is found, innocent until proven guilty.

The vast, vast, vast majority of these allegations have turned out to be lies so far. You don't think these captives know that the best way they can hurt the US is to a) ruin our image further abroad, and b) stir up anti-war sentiment in the US?

These captives know exactly what they're doing, and have a motive to lie their asses off about any and everything. I think that it's a measure of how well our troops have been behaving that there haven't been even more allegations.

 

[RightinNYC]

The state-sponsored schools will never tell you this, but governments routinely rely on hoaxes to sell their agendas to an otherwise reluctant public. The Romans accepted the Emperors and the Germans accepted Hitler not because they wanted to, but because the carefully crafted illusions of threat appeared to leave no other choice.
Our government too uses hoaxes to create the illusion that We The People have no choice but the direction the government wishes us to go in.

Funny, but I learned about both of those historical situations in MY public high school. Guess the government didn't get to my teachers quick enough, eh?
:roll:

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Each one of those is an allegation. Nothing more. They are being investigated, but until wrongdoing is found, innocent until proven guilty.

The vast, vast, vast majority of these allegations have turned out to be lies so far. You don't think these captives know that the best way they can hurt the US is to a) ruin our image further abroad, and b) stir up anti-war sentiment in the US?

These captives know exactly what they're doing, and have a motive to lie their asses off about any and everything. I think that it's a measure of how well our troops have been behaving that there haven't been even more allegations.

So easily dismissing these allegations as lies could be quite dangerous don't you think?

 

[RightinNYC]

So easily dismissing these allegations as lies could be quite dangerous don't you think?

Unless I'm mistaken, every single serious allegation that has been made has been or is being investigated. I would rather wait to hear what the truth is before condemning our troops.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

I did not mean to make such a condemnation. Allegations are serious and not to be dismissed.

For instance: Michael Jackson has had allegations of child molestation. Nothing proved as of yet. Do you think it is wise for one to let their child sleep in his bed? Of course not.

We know about Abu Grahib. We know about people being shipped to Syria for... aggressive interrogations. We know what Amnesty International has to say about Guantanamo. We know enough, I think, to be cautious. I would love to be proven wrong, really, but it is unsafe and unwise, in my opinion, to give such trust and faith at this point.

Once again, I would love to be proven wrong.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

I did not mean to make such a condemnation. Allegations are serious and not to be dismissed.

For instance: Michael Jackson has had allegations of child molestation. Nothing proved as of yet. Do you think it is wise for one to let their child sleep in his bed? Of course not.

We know about Abu Grahib. We know about people being shipped to Syria for... aggressive interrogations. We know what Amnesty International has to say about Guantanamo. We know enough, I think, to be cautious. I would love to be proven wrong, really, but it is unsafe and unwise, in my opinion, to give such trust and faith at this point.

Once again, I would love to be proven wrong.

Captives told to claim torture (Washington Times) (5/31) - An al Qaeda handbook preaches to operatives to level charges of torture once captured, a training regime that administration officials say explains some of the charges of abuse at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050531-121655-7932r.htm

 

[Pacridge]

Unless I'm mistaken, every single serious allegation that has been made has been or is being investigated. I would rather wait to hear what the truth is before condemning our troops.

And you believe the military, investigating itself, you provide you with the "truth?"

 

[RightinNYC]

And you believe the military, investigating itself, you provide you with the "truth?"

And you believe that captive, suspected terrorists, who know full well that claiming torture will immeasurably benefit their cause, will provide you with the "truth?"

Our system might not be perfect, but its the best available.

 

[Pacridge]

And you believe that captive, suspected terrorists, who know full well that claiming torture will immeasurably benefit their cause, will provide you with the "truth?"

Our system might not be perfect, but its the best available.

When did I claim they would be truthful? Personally I would favor an independent investigation something the military as been adamantly opposed to. And as long as there opposed to one I think you'll be waiting a long time for any "truths."

 

[RightinNYC]

When did I claim they would be truthful? Personally I would favor an independent investigation something the military as been adamantly opposed to. And as long as there opposed to one I think you'll be waiting a long time for any "truths."

I'm not saying you claimed they'd be truthful. I'm saying there's little to no reason to believe them. The military has an exceptionally thorough and expansive program of investigation into allegations such as these. Most of these investigations have found nothing wrong, but in the few instances that there were incidents, they were reported and fully detailed.

First off, all of these investigations ARE independent, done by completely different departments. Secondly, I can understand why they'd be opposed to letting an outside group come in and do the investigation. It involves revealing all aspects of military procedure to an outside group, and costs exorbitant amounts of money. I'm all about cutting costs...

 

[Pacridge]

I'm not saying you claimed they'd be truthful. I'm saying there's little to no reason to believe them. The military has an exceptionally thorough and expansive program of investigation into allegations such as these. Most of these investigations have found nothing wrong, but in the few instances that there were incidents, they were reported and fully detailed.

First off, all of these investigations ARE independent, done by completely different departments. Secondly, I can understand why they'd be opposed to letting an outside group come in and do the investigation. It involves revealing all aspects of military procedure to an outside group, and costs exorbitant amounts of money. I'm all about cutting costs...

They are independent? Because the investigators come from different departments? So Enron could have done and "independent investigation" of itself by having one department investigate another? Sorry I'm not buying.

The costs you're looking at saving here could end up furthering the loss of American lives. The overall opinion of the US and their treatment of their prisoners could be improved by such independent oversight. By not allowing such oversight the military may be doing as much to hurt our troops as several neg. Newsweek articles.

 

[RightinNYC]

They are independent? Because the investigators come from different departments? So Enron could have done and "independent investigation" of itself by having one department investigate another? Sorry I'm not buying.

The costs you're looking at saving here could end up furthering the loss of American lives. The overall opinion of the US and their treatment of their prisoners could be improved by such independent oversight. By not allowing such oversight the military may be doing as much to hurt our troops as several neg. Newsweek articles.

Do you have any evidence that these investigations aren't done to the fullest extent possible? Any proof that they've covered up anything? Because, as far as I've seen, they've been pretty much spot on with everything that's happened, and no news organization has found a single lie, try as they might.

I would have no problem spending the money if it would do anything. Unfortunately, there's no evidence that any other group would find anything the military hasnt found.

You're worried about worldwide opinion about the US and our troops? Then how about you write a letter to your local paper and ask them to stop printing allegations of abuse that are completely unverified, in light of the fact that we KNOW that al-Quaida trains their operatives to claim torture as soon as they're captured, in an attempt to do exactly what it's doing.

If the media would reserve itself to reporting the truth and not false claims, there wouldn't be such a hatred of the military.

 

[Pacridge]

Do you have any evidence that these investigations aren't done to the fullest extent possible? Any proof that they've covered up anything? Because, as far as I've seen, they've been pretty much spot on with everything that's happened, and no news organization has found a single lie, try as they might.

I would have no problem spending the money if it would do anything. Unfortunately, there's no evidence that any other group would find anything the military hasnt found.

You're worried about worldwide opinion about the US and our troops? Then how about you write a letter to your local paper and ask them to stop printing allegations of abuse that are completely unverified, in light of the fact that we KNOW that al-Quaida trains their operatives to claim torture as soon as they're captured, in an attempt to do exactly what it's doing.

If the media would reserve itself to reporting the truth and not false claims, there wouldn't be such a hatred of the military.

You want to believe that the military investigations have provided you with "spot on" accurate info that's fine. Having spent time in the military I'm not buying it. I've seen first hand what happens and then what they release to the public.

 

[RightinNYC]

You want to believe that the military investigations have provided you with "spot on" accurate info that's fine. Having spent time in the military I'm not buying it. I've seen first hand what happens and then what they release to the public.

Fair enough.