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[W:20] Israel targets entire apartment complex labeling it "Hamas command structure"

You believe Hamas fighters to be too stupid to figure it out.

Got it.

A moot point since Hamas isn't targeting military targets. It targets large civilian centers.

Because, Hamas.



BTW - Do you believe Hamas too stupid to use one of the high rises for observation?

And are they too stupid to use their drones?
They are not stupid people... they are people who DO NOT have the resources, the capital flow, and the training facilities, they fight with what they have.
We are over here, and all we will get is Propaganda that is the Western Version, because we give Israel so much money... As a general public, we don't know what kind of things Israel does on a daily basis and political in the region that continues to inflame the situation, on top of what we do know, is Israel has economic dominance over the Palestinian's, and Israeli have taken land and continue to plan on taking more. Israel is about what Beverly Hills, CA is to Watts, CA... when it comes to monetary backed capabilities as well as resource support that is available to them.
 
And the Israelis shoot them down. Are you ignorant of that fact? Kinda hard to use a drone to adjust fire when the Israeli's downed it 5 minutes before you started dropping rounds.

More intentional ignorance.

They don't have to be flown directly over the targets.

You must believe the Palestinians in Gaza are stupid. Does that extend to all Palestinians or just those who fight for Hamas?

 
More intentional ignorance.

They don't have to be flown directly over the targets.

You must believe the Palestinians in Gaza are stupid. Does that extend to all Palestinians or just those who fight for Hamas?


They have to be flown close enough to provide a clear picture of mortar impacts. You think they have the Hubble Telescope hanging off the bottom of a drone?

Again, stupid has nothing to do with it. Lack of resources has everything to do with it.
 
They are not stupid people... they are people who DO NOT have the resources, the capital flow, and the training facilities, they fight with what they have.
We are over here, and all we will get is Propaganda that is the Western Version, because we give Israel so much money... As a general public, we don't know what kind of things Israel does on a daily basis and political in the region that continues to inflame the situation, on top of what we do know, is Israel has economic dominance over the Palestinian's, and Israeli have taken land and continue to plan on taking more. Israel is about what Beverly Hills, CA is to Watts, CA... when it comes to monetary backed capabilities as well as resource support that is available to them.

They have the resources to launch thousands of rockets. Construct miles and miles of tunnels. Fire thousands of mortar shells.
They have to be flown close enough to provide a clear picture of mortar impacts. You think they have the Hubble Telescope hanging off the bottom of a drone?

Again, stupid has nothing to do with it. Lack of resources has everything to do with it.

Gee, no other military required a Hubble Telescope.

Oh, that is you saying stupid things.

So, why can't a Palestinian master a weapon used with such effectiveness by Viet Cong.
 
They have the resources to launch thousands of rockets. Construct miles and miles of tunnels. Fire thousands of mortar shells.


Gee, no other military required a Hubble Telescope.

Oh, that is you saying stupid things.

So, why can't a Palestinian master a weapon used with such effectiveness by Viet Cong.

The Viet Cong had training camps deep in the jungle where they got hands on experience using their weapons and perfecting their use. How many mortar training ranges does Hamas have in Gaza?

In order to use a drone, the kind of commercially available quad copter drone that Hamas could acquire, with the kind of camera they have on board, Hamas would have to get their drone very close to whatever target they are attempting to spot for in order to do corrected shots with mortar fire. That means they'd have to be operating within the borders of Israeli settlements to be useful, and the Israelis are going to be trying to shoot said drones down the whole time. Seriously, ****ing think about this for more than a second before you respond.
 
The Viet Cong had training camps deep in the jungle where they got hands on experience using their weapons and perfecting their use. How many mortar training ranges does Hamas have in Gaza?

In order to use a drone, the kind of commercially available quad copter drone that Hamas could acquire, with the kind of camera they have on board, Hamas would have to get their drone very close to whatever target they are attempting to spot for in order to do corrected shots with mortar fire. That means they'd have to be operating within the borders of Israeli settlements to be useful, and the Israelis are going to be trying to shoot said drones down the whole time. Seriously, ****ing think about this for more than a second before you respond.

More ignorance on display.

All of Israel in a target to Hamas.

Hamas targets civilians because they are Hamas and targets civilians.

Your BS that they target civilians because they are incapable of targeting military sites in laughable at this point.
 
More ignorance on display.

All of Israel in a target to Hamas.

Hamas targets civilians because they are Hamas and targets civilians.

Your BS that they target civilians because they are incapable of targeting military sites in laughable at this point.

All of South Vietnam was a target to the VC and VPA, but they still needed actual training ranges with known distance targets to be able to get good at accurately dropping mortar shells.

How many training ranges does Hamas have in Gaza?

They are incapable of accurately hitting targets. 99.5% of their fighters have no professional training.
 
All of South Vietnam was a target to the VC and VPA, but they still needed actual training ranges with known distance targets to be able to get good at accurately dropping mortar shells.

How many training ranges does Hamas have in Gaza?

They are incapable of accurately hitting targets. 99.5% of their fighters have no professional training.

You keep asking stupid questions. There is no need for a training range. The entire border is a target.

And why do they need precision?

Their admitted target is civilians.

Another point you remain blithely ignorant of.
 
You keep asking stupid questions. There is no need for a training range. The entire border is a target.

And why do they need precision?

Their admitted target is civilians.

Another point you remain blithely ignorant of.

Let me guess, you've never trained a day in your life on a mortar nor know anyone who ever has, correct?

In order to learn how to accurately fire a mortar, you need to fire it at known targets to learn how to accurately hit them. You also need to not be shot at when doing this training. Getting hit with a Hellfire from an Israeli Apache while "training" with a mortar, doesn't lead to much learning does it?
 
A few questions have always occurred to me regarding this conflict and while reading the bickering going on in this thread they once again become apparent.

The State of Israel as the military occupying power of the Occupied Territories since June 1967 has a duty to protect civilians under its control. But instead every 6-7 years it slaughters them in the high hundreds or thousands. Now the State of Israel claims falsely that Gaza is not occupied, except the State of Israel controls the sky above Gaza, the water and land frontiers of Gaza (including by multilateral agreement the Egyptian frontier) and with stand-off observation and weapons platforms it controls and can interdict all movement in Gaza except for some subterranean movement. Furthermore Israeli troops guard security and kill zones on Gazan territory and regularly send troops in to Gaza to maintain those zones. So Gazan territory is militarily occupied with boots on the ground in these zones despite Israeli denials. So Gaza is effectively militarily occupied and according to international laws, which the State of Israel signed onto, the Israeli Government has a duty to protect civilians under its control and cannot change its occupier status unilaterally.

When Israeli forces blow up a building containing an Hamas command node and innocent civilians as well, it is okay because they gave the civilian residents a warning in the middle of ongoing air raids to get out, right? So if Hamas gives a warning that they are going to attack the State of Israel with its many command nodes and gives a warning to all Israeli civilians to get out of Israel before the attack, then why is that not okay?

We hear constantly that the State of Israel has the right to defend itself by attacking Hamas, Gaza and the Palestinian Arabs trapped there, when Israel proper is attacked by Arab Palestinian militants. Why do we not hear that the Palestinians of the Occupied Territories have a right to defend themselves by attacking the State of Israel proper or occupying troops in the Occupied Territories, when that state attacks Arab Palestinians in those Occupied Territories?

There are many double-standards and rather selective reasoning going on to try and shape the perceptions of this conflict and why people buy into it is puzzling to me. It is so evidently self-serving. The only answer I can come up with is conflicting tribalism and runaway ethno-nationalism on both sides of this over-a-century-long conflict. You pick a tribe and ignore consistent reasoning and rational argument unless those serve the interests of your chosen tribe.

But the tribes are not just Hebrew and Palestinian Arab. The State of Israel, although it does have a small long-standing Levant community of local Jewish residents, is largely composed of Europeans from Russia to Portugal and from Malta to the Arctic Sea. Add to that many Americans (the continents) of European origin. These are all recent immigrants to the disputed land, arriving only in the last century. Then add to that those Jews driven out of their Middle Eastern countries in reaction to the creation of the State of Israel. But these are somehow the original people of the Levant, we are told, when the facts glaringly contradict such an assertion.

Contrasted with that, we have Arabs including Palestinian Arabs, many with centuries long roots in the Levant. They have lived there for far longer than the proponderance of the settler and refugee Hebrews/Jews/Israelis. They lived there since the Bronze Age (not all Arabs came out of Arabia in the 7th and 8th centuries CE) and continued to live there until modern times under Ottoman and later British/French rule. They are quite arguably more established than the European settler Jews and the expelled refugee Jews who seized by force and recolonised what today are the State of Israel and the Occupied Territories. And yet the Arab Palestinians are painted as the newcomers while the Hebrews/Jews/Israelis are characterised as the rightful original people of the land under contest. Hogwash. Both sides have ancient and legitimate claims but tribal factions are intentionally blind to that.

So I think many Europens and Americans pick the Hebrew/Jewish/Israeli tribe out of familiarity and reflexively reject the Arab tribe, regardless of the evidence presented or the apparent inconsistencies in both tribes' claims to the land, to nationhood and to statehood.

It's the mindless and bloody games of Rome in a far bigger setting with tribally enthralled adherents following their chosen side out of unquestioning allegience. Poisoned bread and bloody, land-hungry games with civilians from all tribes dying to the ferocious lions of both tribes.

It's insanity to buy into either side's myths and justifications without questioning them, but we do it anyway. Why?
Evilroddy.
 
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Call it propaganda if you want.... the map is representative of how Palestinians have been stripped of land.

It's propaganda because you're not making a difference between the 'Palestine' that was a term to refer to the land of Israel and the 'Palestine' that current Palestinians want to establish.
 
You have confirmed somehow the info that Israel called 1 single person to warn an entire apartment complex? Whered you get this info from? Even the Vogans used a megaphone to warn EVERYBODY.



Calling 1 single person and telling um that an entire apartment complex is about to be bombed sounds like something a terrorist would do when they make a bomb threat.


Hamas initiated a war. Hamas is intentionally conducted a war crime by using gaza civilians as innocent shields by installing military targets within civilian buildings, placing civilians above their offices and facilities. Israel had no obligation to warn anyone, let alone HAMAS, before taking out the target.

That Israel has taken unusual precautions is commendable, especially given that HAMAS couldn't care less how many fellow Palestinians they sacrifice as a shield.. However, Israel chose to alert the building security and gave them at least an hour to evacuate. If all did, fine. If some, including HAMAS, did not...it is what it is.

AP, among others, managed to evacuate just fine.
 
More ignorance on display.

All of Israel in a target to Hamas.

Hamas targets civilians because they are Hamas and targets civilians.

Your BS that they target civilians because they are incapable of targeting military sites in laughable at this point.
You purposefully ignore the fact that Israel has access to satellite data, not just their own means to get that data, but data that is supplied to them by Western countries, yes, that means America, Europe and other countries that provide them intelligence information. You comments indicate that you favor Israel long background of encroachment and devastation and the economic dominance over the region.
 
It does raise the question:

Which journalists who are highly critical of Hamas's use of political violence, repressive single-party rule, antisemitism and general anti-democratic nature have been allowed to remain in Gaza to continue to report on them?

And this is not a rhetorical question. I am genuinely asking whether journalists who are critical of the Hamas ruling party of Gaza are able to be in Gaza and report from Gaza while being openly critical of them?
Hamas habitually expels foreign correspondents and, just as habitually, arrests and maltreats Palestinian reporters.

In both cases over their critical reporting.
 
Hamas habitually expels foreign correspondents and, just as habitually, arrests and maltreats Palestinian reporters.

In both cases over their critical reporting.
Ahem, we do not point out the flaws in the "victims," only in the "oppressors."
 
You purposefully ignore the fact that Israel has access to satellite data, not just their own means to get that data, but data that is supplied to them by Western countries, yes, that means America, Europe and other countries that provide them intelligence information. You comments indicate that you favor Israel long background of encroachment and devastation and the economic dominance over the region.

You ASSume much.

I don't agree with increased settlements and prefer a two nation solution.

As to Gaza. I saw great potential. Then Hamas turned Gaza into an armed camp from which to launch terror attacks.
 
At least thats how this appears at first glance. I feel bad for everyone else in that apartment who has no idea who the hamas people are.....

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Hamas initiated a war.


Really ? So the state of Israel never started it by violently evicting Palestinians living in Israeli occupied East Jerusalem so as to replace them, at some future point, with illegal settlers, in an act the rules of the forum prevent me from accurately describing but involves the clearing of people from an area based on their ethnicity ?
 
Hamas habitually expels foreign correspondents and, just as habitually, arrests and maltreats Palestinian reporters.

In both cases over their critical reporting.

It's a similar story with the state of Israels treatment of Palestinian journalists but you appear not to know that or are just, as ever, focusing on the odious actions of some Palestinians
 
A few questions have always occurred to me regarding this conflict and while reading the bickering going on in this thread they once again become apparent.

The State of Israel as the military occupying power of the Occupied Territories since June 1967 has a duty to protect civilians under its control. But instead every 6-7 years it slaughters them in the high hundreds or thousands. Now the State of Israel claims falsely that Gaza is not occupied, except the State of Israel controls the sky above Gaza, the water and land frontiers of Gaza (including by multilateral agreement the Egyptian frontier) and with stand-off observation and weapons platforms it controls and can interdict all movement in Gaza except for some subterranean movement. Furthermore Israeli troops guard security and kill zones on Gazan territory and regularly send troops in to Gaza to maintain those zones. So Gazan territory is militarily occupied with boots on the ground in these zones despite Israeli denials. So Gaza is effectively militarily occupied and according to international laws, which the State of Israel signed onto, the Israeli Government has a duty to protect civilians under its control and cannot change its occupier status unilaterally.

When Israeli forces blow up a building containing an Hamas command node and innocent civilians as well, it is okay because they gave the civilian residents a warning in the middle of ongoing air raids to get out, right? So if Hamas gives a warning that they are going to attack the State of Israel with its many command nodes and gives a warning to all Israeli civilians to get out of Israel before the attack, then why is that not okay?

We hear constantly that the State of Israel has the right to defend itself by attacking Hamas, Gaza and the Palestinian Arabs trapped there, when Israel proper is attacked by Arab Palestinian militants. Why do we not hear that the Palestinians of the Occupied Territories have a right to defend themselves by attacking the State of Israel proper or occupying troops in the Occupied Territories, when that state attacks Arab Palestinians in those Occupied Territories?

There are many double-standards and rather selective reasoning going on to try and shape the perceptions of this conflict and why people buy into it is puzzling to me. It is so evidently self-serving. The only answer I can come up with is conflicting tribalism and runaway ethno-nationalism on both sides of this over-a-century-long conflict. You pick a tribe and ignore consistent reasoning and rational argument unless those serve the interests of your chosen tribe.

But the tribes are not just Hebrew and Palestinian Arab. The State of Israel, although it does have a small long-standing Levant community of local Jewish residents, is largely composed of Europeans from Russia to Portugal and from Malta to the Arctic Sea. Add to that many Americans (the continents) of European origin. These are all recent immigrants to the disputed land, arriving only in the last century. Then add to that those Jews driven out of their Middle Eastern countries in reaction to the creation of the State of Israel. But these are somehow the original people of the Levant, we are told, when the facts glaringly contradict such an assertion.

Contrasted with that, we have Arabs including Palestinian Arabs, many with centuries long roots in the Levant. They have lived there for far longer than the proponderance of the settler and refugee Hebrews/Jews/Israelis. They lived there since the Bronze Age (not all Arabs came out of Arabia in the 7th and 8th centuries CE) and continued to live there until modern times under Ottoman and later British/French rule. They are quite arguably more established than the European settler Jews and the expelled refugee Jews who seized by force and recolonised what today are the State of Israel and the Occupied Territories. And yet the Arab Palestinians are painted as the newcomers while the Hebrews/Jews/Israelis are characterised as the rightful original people of the land under contest. Hogwash. Both sides have ancient and legitimate claims but tribal factions are intentionally blind to that.



It's insanity to buy into either side's myths and justifications without questioning them, but we do it anyway. Why?
Evilroddy.
Had to snip for word count soz

There's so much honesty in this is actually needs little response , save to say that most people on this forum live in the west and that means they are not exposed to the candid descriptions above on anywhere near as regular basis that would be needed to brake the mold of that you describe. The whole conflict is, imo, strewn with such upside down perceptions and the necessary independence of thought to see through them is lost to the tribalism you have identified already
 
You ASSume much.

I don't agree with increased settlements and prefer a two nation solution.

As to Gaza. I saw great potential. Then Hamas turned Gaza into an armed camp from which to launch terror attacks.

I think they have you tagged ok

If you support the law you wouldn't " agree " to support ANY of the settlements because they are ALL illegal. The Palestinian state HAS to be a viable state for it to have any future and thus it needs to include Gaza

Gaza was never given the chance to turn itself around and was never free from the occupation. They just took the prison guards out of the jail and resituated them at the perimeter fence
 
I think they have you tagged ok

If you support the law you wouldn't " agree " to support ANY of the settlements because they are ALL illegal. The Palestinian state HAS to be a viable state for it to have any future and thus it needs to include Gaza

Gaza was never given the chance to turn itself around and was never free from the occupation. They just took the prison guards out of the jail and resituated them at the perimeter fence

And I think you speak out of your ass as usual.

Gaza is because of what Hamas is.
 
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