Vietnam

[Redress]

Maybe you would've received a warmer response if you hadn't thrown in that idiotic commentary about other posters being like Hanoi Jane and kept your partisan political bull**** out of it.

No no no. It is all the fault of you commie lovin', American hatin', homosexual, Hitler lovin', flag burin', troop spittin' on liberals.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Well then we got the same batch of bad acid, because I halucinated the same thing when I returned home. :mrgreen:

I did not serve in Vietnam, but I had some pretty bad experiences from 1990-1993, and from 2008 until today.

To this day Liberals deny that...Even though the words of lefties like Kerry in front of Congress are well documented and the picture of Fonda have been shown around the war they deny it...............

Oh, I could tell you stories.

During the Gulf War, we were suggested to stay out of large areas of San Francisco and the surrounding area, because we would be targeted by the "Peace Protestors". But even that did not help, since for some reason, protestors in California are drawn to freeways like lemmings to cliffs. Hand 20 of them signs, and they seem to want to spread their word by clogging up the freeways and bridges (and apparently this is contageous, since they do it in New York now also).

One time I was the "Vehicle Commander" of a white Navy van taking 10 broken Sailros and Marines to the Oakland Naval Hospital. We were on the I-80 near the Bay Bridge, and all traffic came to a halt. I turned on the news, and discovered that the protest had marched onto the freeway and shut it down. And heading towards us, I could see a bunch of these freaks walking down towards us.

Now at this time, we had to go to the hospital in uniform, so I told everybody to quickly strip out of anything that looked military. The sailors just took off their shirts, so for them it looked like they were just wearing white shirts and jeans. For us Marines, it was a bit trickier. We pulled out or borrowed t-shirts that some of us wore during physical therapy, and tried to make it look like a random bunch of people in a white van. We were stuck there for about 2 hours, hoping that none of those idiots looked to closely inside the van or noticed the US NAVY license plates.

The next day, standing orders for going to Oakland Naval Hospital changed. The use of personal vehicles was now authorized (instead of the mandatory van pool for those E-5 and below), and civilian attire was strongly recommended.

And now here I am, back in this lovely, wonderful area. Where people see my uniform and flip me off on the freeway. Where I have people direct snide remarks at me as I pass, like "Murderer", "Baby killer", and one of my favorites, "F*****g fascist". Where people will purposefully go out of their way to bump into me, or even as one did at LAX, spit on me.

 

[clownboy]

Yeah, it is hard to understand folks' emotions when they're busy insulting you in the same breath. So I certainly understand, I see that coming a lot from the so-called liberal side as well. People end up arguing the insults and forget about the source material content.

That said, I will never forget or forgive Hanoi Jane or that liar Kerry. I was set to vote against Bush after his first term, but then the dems decided to run Kerry. I'd have voted for virtually anyone running against Kerry, and I did.

 

[Quantrill]

You greatly underestimate the intelligence of the American Fighting man....We all know why we went to war......we won every battle but lost the war.........

No, I understand all were young then. They didn't know all about what that war was. We probably don't know all about it today. But some of those young were hawks, and some were doves. Some were willing to go to war for their country. Some were willing to protest that war for their country.

Many have hard feelings against Jane Fonda. I do not. She was a young woman against the war. I think she regrets the photos with the N. Vietnamese Army, but not her protest of the war. For her protest against the war, I have no problem. For her photos with the N. Vietnamese, I remember she was just a kid. And weren't we all.

Quantrill

 

[Leo]

No, I understand all were young then. They didn't know all about what that war was. We probably don't know all about it today. But some of those young were hawks, and some were doves. Some were willing to go to war for their country. Some were willing to protest that war for their country.

Many have hard feelings against Jane Fonda. I do not. She was a young woman against the war. I think she regrets the photos with the N. Vietnamese Army, but not her protest of the war. For her protest against the war, I have no problem. For her photos with the N. Vietnamese, I remember she was just a kid. And weren't we all.

Quantrill

Thank you for a balanced view, and a post which displays the human values of tolerance and understanding, without straying into the unnecessary areas of hostility, and mawkish pride and sentimentality.

I am someone who comes from a military family whose service to the Crown predates the forming of your nation, and whose highly decorated father died (some years later) as a direct result of injuries sustained in the Gulf War. While I am not in a position to understand everything about it (never having gone to war) I respect the potential sacrifice that every military man faces when he goes into battle.

I have seen that video, and others like it, before, and I like the gentle sentiments expressed. But I am not so naive as to not recognise it as a piece of subtle propaganda. I do not have a problem with its basic message - that of respect for those who do a difficult job well. But I can also see the perceived necessity (by those who send young men to die for the corporate good,) to present the military in a mystic angelic light. The more My Lais, Fallejuahs, and Hadithas, the military commit, the greater that necessity. 'Our boys' must never be portrayed wearing even off-white hats.

The military, of any country, are neither self-sacrificing heroes (other than when they actually do something heroic and self-sacrificing) nor are they blood thirsty baby-killers. They are (usually) young men - often of little secondary and tertiary education, and with few choices of professional career - who make the choice to join the military. They go where they are told, and do what they are told, and they are not to be blamed (and are seldom aware) if the conflict they are directed to wage is an illegal or immoral one. Of course this does not excuse the individuals who commit atrocities and crimes against humanity while hiding behind a uniform, but it is as unreasonable to despise every military man for the actions of a few, as it is to despise every citizen for the actions of a few criminals.

I do, however, have some reservations about the almost veneration in which the military appears to be held in US society. It is disturbingly akin to the attitudes one reads of in past Fascist societies. Every soldier is not a hero for simply seeing action while wearing the uniform. To say so, devalues the regard in which real heroes are held. Furthermore, expanding the influence and hegemony of a nation state is by no means the same thing as defending one's country.

 

[Sarcogito]

With females now "equally" in the military, the draft will never again happen, as it is political suicide. Imagine yanking little Suzzie out of dance class, Mary out of the library or Hillary out of welfare la-la land and sending them to boot camp. The modern military relies little on unskilled ground troops (females especially), so draftees cost more to train than they are worth for the brief enlistments usually associated with the draft.

I agree the draft won't happen again, but not for that reason. Until women are required to enroll in the Selective Service they wouldn't be included in any draft.

 

[Sarcogito]

While I am certain some of the stories of being spit on were made up or exaggerated, I am equally as certain that it did happen to some people. As for being called “baby killers”, hell, there is video of that happening and it still happens.

 

[Navy Pride]

Maybe you should not have thrown in the retarded commentary along with the video then. You got no one to blame but yourself for how this thread has gone.

You also exibit a large amount of ignorance of the Vietnam war, but that is a seperate issue.

You were in diapers during Nam.........I did not say anything that was not true....I will never forget you lefties for the way you treated me and my Vietnam brothers....

 

[Redress]

You were in diapers during Nam.........I did not say anything that was not true....I will never forget you lefties for the way you treated me and my Vietnam brothers....

Wait. I was in diapers, and you are still blaming me for the way I treated your relatives? Are you trying to say nonsense?

 

[Crosscheck]

The modern military has absolutely no use for those that are unskilled. Things have advanced a lot in the last 40 years, and I doubt there will ever again be another draft.

Back during the draft, you could have the IQ of a turnip, and did not even have to know how to read or write. All they wanted and needed were warm bodies to put into uniforms. Today, you had better get a good score on the ASVAB if you want to enter with a GED, because they only want High School Diplomas. No GED or Diploma. forget about it.

When I went thru boot in 1970 we had a kid who was let go after the second week when we discovered he was legally blind. To get a 4-F deferment back then you either had to be in a wheelchair or daddy pulled some strings with your physician.

As a side note , it was never the Vietnam War, it was the Vietnam Conflict. Never got spit on nor saw anyone get spit on. I think there was some resentment by locals of base towns. They liked your money but wished you just stay on your base.

 

[Sarcogito]

You were in diapers during Nam.........I did not say anything that was not true....I will never forget you lefties for the way you treated me and my Vietnam brothers....

NP, please stop with these gross generalizations. “We lefties” have served in every conflict as well.

 

[Jetboogieman]

NP, please stop with these gross generalizations. “We lefties” have served in every conflict as well.

He can't do that.

Because absolutely anything he doesn't agree with he considers "leftist".

He's called some of the staunchest conservatives on this site leftists for not agreeing with him on certain subjects, birtherism being one of them.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Many have hard feelings against Jane Fonda. I do not. She was a young woman against the war. I think she regrets the photos with the N. Vietnamese Army, but not her protest of the war. For her protest against the war, I have no problem. For her photos with the N. Vietnamese, I remember she was just a kid. And weren't we all.

Quantrill

Actually, I do have hard feelings against her. And when she made that trip, she was 34 years old, hardly a "kid".

Sorry, that is what has continualy been given as the cause, but it fails the smell test when you look at when she was born (1937) and when she made the trip (1972) she was in her mid-30's. She was no kid, and she by even modern terminology she would have been approaching "cougar" territory.

And yes, I believe that anybody that does and says the things she did is giving "aid and comfort to the enemy", if not borderline "treason". She made statements that US soldiers were "war criminals", and that the POWs were all well taken care of.

And in later years when released prisoners made statements of the torture renderd unto them by their Vietnamese captors, she called them all liars, statements made by "professional killers", who were "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to the law".

Look, protest all you want within the US inside of the law, I don't care. Go to other countries and do the same thing, fine. But when you go to a hostile country and make such statements, or meet with a hostile group and make such statements, then you are no longer simply exercising your 1st Ammendment Right, you are giving "aid and comfort to the enemy".

To me, she is no better then William Joyce, Norman Baillie-Stewart, James Clark, Ruth Hayakawa, or Iva Toguri D'Aquino.

 

[Oozlefinch]

When I went thru boot in 1970 we had a kid who was let go after the second week when we discovered he was legally blind. To get a 4-F deferment back then you either had to be in a wheelchair or daddy pulled some strings with your physician.

As a side note , it was never the Vietnam War, it was the Vietnam Conflict. Never got spit on nor saw anyone get spit on. I think there was some resentment by locals of base towns. They liked your money but wished you just stay on your base.

Actually, with the exception of the San Francisco area, I never really had any problems with locals outside of "base towns". San Diego, Long Beach, Seal Beach, Jacksonville, El Paso, Ozark, never any real problem there. My problem was mostly in several big cities, mostly known for having a somewhat "liberal" viewpoint. LA, San Francisco (and how!), and Portland were the worst.

Resentment from locals I never saw, but I am sure that was mostly a problem in the bars and clubs when military guys were in competition for the local ladies. But since I married a gal I knew since High School early in my career, that was never an issue for me. So I never saw anything of that sort myself (but have heard of it).

 

[Quantrill]

Thank you for a balanced view, and a post which displays the human values of tolerance and understanding, without straying into the unnecessary areas of hostility, and mawkish pride and sentimentality.

I am someone who comes from a military family whose service to the Crown predates the forming of your nation, and whose highly decorated father died (some years later) as a direct result of injuries sustained in the Gulf War. While I am not in a position to understand everything about it (never having gone to war) I respect the potential sacrifice that every military man faces when he goes into battle.

I have seen that video, and others like it, before, and I like the gentle sentiments expressed. But I am not so naive as to not recognise it as a piece of subtle propaganda. I do not have a problem with its basic message - that of respect for those who do a difficult job well. But I can also see the perceived necessity (by those who send young men to die for the corporate good,) to present the military in a mystic angelic light. The more My Lais, Fallejuahs, and Hadithas, the military commit, the greater that necessity. 'Our boys' must never be portrayed wearing even off-white hats.

The military, of any country, are neither self-sacrificing heroes (other than when they actually do something heroic and self-sacrificing) nor are they blood thirsty baby-killers. They are (usually) young men - often of little secondary and tertiary education, and with few choices of professional career - who make the choice to join the military. They go where they are told, and do what they are told, and they are not to be blamed (and are seldom aware) if the conflict they are directed to wage is an illegal or immoral one. Of course this does not excuse the individuals who commit atrocities and crimes against humanity while hiding behind a uniform, but it is as unreasonable to despise every military man for the actions of a few, as it is to despise every citizen for the actions of a few criminals.

I do, however, have some reservations about the almost veneration in which the military appears to be held in US society. It is disturbingly akin to the attitudes one reads of in past Fascist societies. Every soldier is not a hero for simply seeing action while wearing the uniform. To say so, devalues the regard in which real heroes are held. Furthermore, expanding the influence and hegemony of a nation state is by no means the same thing as defending one's country.

Your quite welcome. And yes you are right, in America the pendulum has swung from hatred of the soldier to veneration of the soldier. Neither of which appeals to me either.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Actually, I do have hard feelings against her. And when she made that trip, she was 34 years old, hardly a "kid".

Sorry, that is what has continualy been given as the cause, but it fails the smell test when you look at when she was born (1937) and when she made the trip (1972) she was in her mid-30's. She was no kid, and she by even modern terminology she would have been approaching "cougar" territory.

And yes, I believe that anybody that does and says the things she did is giving "aid and comfort to the enemy", if not borderline "treason". She made statements that US soldiers were "war criminals", and that the POWs were all well taken care of.

And in later years when released prisoners made statements of the torture renderd unto them by their Vietnamese captors, she called them all liars, statements made by "professional killers", who were "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to the law".

Look, protest all you want within the US inside of the law, I don't care. Go to other countries and do the same thing, fine. But when you go to a hostile country and make such statements, or meet with a hostile group and make such statements, then you are no longer simply exercising your 1st Ammendment Right, you are giving "aid and comfort to the enemy".

To me, she is no better then William Joyce, Norman Baillie-Stewart, James Clark, Ruth Hayakawa, or Iva Toguri D'Aquino.

I have seen an interview with Jane Fonda on TV and she did say she regretted the pictures and some of her remarks. Again, she was young enough to be allowed to make a mistake. Because she was such a celebrity, then her every words and actions would be more effective or damaging, however you look at it.

It was a difficult time then. What indeed was the purpose of the war? Did it merit 60,000 lifes? Did the world topple when Saigon fell in 75? No. And here we are trying to trade with Vietnam now. So, a country gave up 60,000 for nothing. And you are upset with Jane Fonda?

Perhaps she and others were right. They did what they did in protest for what they considered to be wrong.

Quantrill

 

[haymarket]

That is horse**** I saw it with my own eyes........The worse part was calling us baby killers..........I think that is when I became a Conservative.........

sure..... whatever .... okay..... got it ..... :roll::roll:

reality says otherwise

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2009/08/26/part-two-spitting-image-this-legacy-of-vietnam-is-a-myth/

Robert L. Hanafin
Major, U.S. Air Force-Retired
Veterans Today News Network &
Our Troops News Ladder

Jerry Lembcke demonstrated what we know to be true, and in fact challenge any believers in this myth to straighten us out by providing the main ingredient to make myth reality - solid proof. Jerry was the first sincere scholarly researcher to show that not a single incident of this sort has been convincingly documented. Rather, the anti-war Left saw in Veterans a natural ally, and the relationship between anti-war forces and most Veterans was defined by mutual support. The entry of Vietnam Vets or any Veterans into the anti-war movement would have had the impact of suppressing such spitting incidents.
That said, we challenge any believer in this myth to show documented proof (photos or news paper archives) that show any Vietnam Era or War Veteran being spit on as they return from any overseas tour during the Vietnam War. We mean actually spitting on them NOT shunning them or putting them down as most mainstream VSOs did back in the day. This of course could be spun into a form of spitting on Veterans.

 

[haymarket]

So I guess I was halucinating when it happened to me then.

What exactly happened to you?

 

[Superfly]

I do, however, have some reservations about the almost veneration in which the military appears to be held in US society. It is disturbingly akin to the attitudes one reads of in past Fascist societies. Every soldier is not a hero for simply seeing action while wearing the uniform. To say so, devalues the regard in which real heroes are held. Furthermore, expanding the influence and hegemony of a nation state is by no means the same thing as defending one's country.

While it's not a popular opinion here in the States, many feel this way but keep it to themselves. Mostly Vietnam vets, who were given such a hard time coming back, wonder why they were spat on, and the guys coming back today are hailed as heroes. They aren't heroes. If they throw themselves on a grenade, they are a hero. If they do something hero-worthy, of course. But just because they are in the military, doesn't make them a hero. I agree that calling everyone a hero truly devalues the real meaning of the word.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

When I came home I had friends that I grew up with that wouldn’t even talk to me. One actually asked me how many babies I killed. An old GF said I should have gone to Canada and walked away. People that didn’t live through that era can’t understand how things were then.

 

[haymarket]

When I came home I had friends that I grew up with that wouldn’t even talk to me. One actually asked me how many babies I killed. An old GF said I should have gone to Canada and walked away. People that didn’t live through that era can’t understand how things were then.

I was not aware that anyone had a duty or obligation to talk to you?

What you describe is not anyone spitting upon you.

 

[Navy Pride]

I laugh at these lefties who live in a state of denial.........It happened....Guys coming back were spit on and called baby killers....The left who did this to our troops is to ashamed to admit it. They think if they deny it that it will go away........That wil never happen......Vietnam vets will never forget the Jane Fondas and John Kerrys of this country........


God Bless all the Vietnam Vets who were treated so badly and the 58,000 heroes on that wall in DC who made the ultimate sacrafice for their ungrateful country........

 

[Navy Pride]

He can't do that.

Because absolutely anything he doesn't agree with he considers "leftist".

He's called some of the staunchest conservatives on this site leftists for not agreeing with him on certain subjects, birtherism being one of them.

One thing for sure I sure as hell did not make a mistake calling you a far left lib.....

 

[StillBallin75]

I have seen an interview with Jane Fonda on TV and she did say she regretted the pictures and some of her remarks. Again, she was young enough to be allowed to make a mistake. Because she was such a celebrity, then her every words and actions would be more effective or damaging, however you look at it.

It was a difficult time then. What indeed was the purpose of the war? Did it merit 60,000 lifes? Did the world topple when Saigon fell in 75? No. And here we are trying to trade with Vietnam now. So, a country gave up 60,000 for nothing. And you are upset with Jane Fonda?

Perhaps she and others were right. They did what they did in protest for what they considered to be wrong.

Quantrill

That's probably the first thing you've said here that I agree with. I bear no love for Jane Fonda or what she did, but in all honesty I do believe that our leaders and policymakers deserve the same vitriol and blame that was laid at her feet, if not more so.

 

[Navy Pride]

Actually, I do have hard feelings against her. And when she made that trip, she was 34 years old, hardly a "kid".

Sorry, that is what has continualy been given as the cause, but it fails the smell test when you look at when she was born (1937) and when she made the trip (1972) she was in her mid-30's. She was no kid, and she by even modern terminology she would have been approaching "cougar" territory.

And yes, I believe that anybody that does and says the things she did is giving "aid and comfort to the enemy", if not borderline "treason". She made statements that US soldiers were "war criminals", and that the POWs were all well taken care of.

And in later years when released prisoners made statements of the torture renderd unto them by their Vietnamese captors, she called them all liars, statements made by "professional killers", who were "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to the law".

Look, protest all you want within the US inside of the law, I don't care. Go to other countries and do the same thing, fine. But when you go to a hostile country and make such statements, or meet with a hostile group and make such statements, then you are no longer simply exercising your 1st Ammendment Right, you are giving "aid and comfort to the enemy".

To me, she is no better then William Joyce, Norman Baillie-Stewart, James Clark, Ruth Hayakawa, or Iva Toguri D'Aquino.

Thank you, you might add Benedict Arnold to that group..........She should have been tried for trason. Period.