Ukrainian Sovereignty Was The Paramount "Western Value" That Was The Driver In Western Support Of The War. ( until it wasn't )

[Fledermaus]

By your “logic” France stopped being a nation in 1940.

Your claims are laughable.

Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians weren't nations after the Soviet invasion nor under Nazi occupation.

Fact.

 

[Juin]

"Western values" were embodied in the Budapest Memorandum signed by the USA, Russia, and Great Britain, guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty if they would give up their nuclear weapons left by the collapse of the USSR. They gave them up and now they're been Trumped on.

Trump is also a subset of the totality of "western values". Putin as well. Marine le Pen as well.

 

[sanman]

The entire free world thinks Trump and his toadies are assholes and I have to agree. The term has never been so aptly applied. We are being taken over by a bunch of corrupt assholes who make a fool of America daily.

Unlike you conscientious warmongers who want to righteously bring us WW3 under the orders of Emperor Senile and his sidekick Miss Giggly.

 

[Fabiusbile]

"Western values" were embodied in the Budapest Memorandum signed by the USA, Russia, and Great Britain, guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty if they would give up their nuclear weapons left by the collapse of the USSR. They gave them up and now they're been Trumped on.

Another repetition of propaganda, without understanding the issue
1) The Budapest Memorandum is legally void. After the creation of this document, it had to be ratified by the parliaments of the signatory countries... and none of the countries did it.
2) The Budapest Memorandum did not provide any guarantees, as the very phrase "guarantees" is not used there, I advise you to read it before referring to it. There are a few points, take your time.

 

[roberthughey]

I wonder how many Americans are red faced by Trumps decision to negotiate an end to the war in Ukraine in bilateral talks with the Russian side only.

I mean do you ever learn that these " western values" are just useful tools with which to dupe the home population into supporting good old fashioned imperialist power plays?

Zelensky has spent the last 3 years going around the houses with the saddest demeanor on the planet only to be ****ed off from the debate about his own country's future.

The pathetic chirp that " Putin is afraid to talk to me " as a means to try to deflect/redirect from his very obvious sidelining from the talks is even worse than his constant use of army garb and perpetual miserable kipper that went with it.

At least nobody, at least those of the thinking variety, should still be conned with the " it's all about national sovereignty schtick.

I accept 2 realities.

Ukraine can't win this war by itself as in pushing Russia from it's territory. Money and arms are not enough.

No one is sending troops to help them push Russia out.

 

[Fabiusbile]

I accept 2 realities.

Ukraine can't win this war by itself as in pushing Russia from it's territory. Money and arms are not enough.

No one is sending troops to help them push Russia out.

I'm going to reveal another reality to you... There are not enough Ukrainians. At least there are not enough people who want to fight.

 

[snakestretcher]

Putin's ambition to annex Ukraine has been thwarted by the Ukrainians, the US and world at large. As with everyone who complains about a peace deal, there solution is to keep the destruction and death going on indefinitely because its no skin off your nose.

When did Ukraine get shafted? Congress appropriated $174.2 billion through the five Ukraine supplemental appropriation acts enacted FY 2022 through FY 2024, of which $163.6 billion was allocated for OAR and the Ukraine response, and $10.6 billion was allocated for other, primarily humanitarian, purposes. I'd like to get shafted for just 1 million. Unlike our other leaders Trump believes if we 'save' a country with our treasure we should be compensated. I don't have a problem with that. With all lending banks at some time the note comes due. The mineral deal would assure protection of Ukraine and bring desperately needed money to rebuild Ukraine. Trumps actions have always been consistent with wanting peace. When did the left become such war hawks? All the left is saying is give war, death and destruction a chance!

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Four. How many nations fell to Communist takeover during that time?

Move those goalposts. LMAO.

 

[Fledermaus]

Unlike you conscientious warmongers who want to righteously bring us WW3 under the orders of Emperor Senile and his sidekick Miss Giggly.

Wow. Hard to think of a more inane response ....

 

[sanman]

Wow. Hard to think of a more inane response ....

I don't think you know the meaning of that word, or how to use it

yet another hollow reply

 

[snakestretcher]

We cannot make decisions for other nations but some of us have forgotten the democracy and sovereignty comes with a price. What choice do the Ukrainians have to respond to Putin's attempt at genocide of Ukraine? Surrender and they will die a thousand deaths keep fighting and they get to kill Russians by the 1000's. They will always choose to fight and they have only just begun.

Just as in 1939 when Britain stood alone against the most powerful military on the planet at the time. As Churchill said; "...we will never surrender".

 

[Tigerace117]

Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians weren't nations after the Soviet invasion nor under Nazi occupation.

Fact.

By your logic France wouldn’t have been a nation after 1940.

Which shows the stupidity of your claims.

 

[Fledermaus]

By your logic France wouldn’t have been a nation after 1940.

Which shows the stupidity of your claims.

France =/= Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians

Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians weren't nations after the Soviet invasion nor under Nazi occupation.

Fact.

 

[Fledermaus]

I don't think you know the meaning of that word, or how to use it

yet another hollow reply

Inane

1. : lacking significance, meaning, or point : silly. inane comments. 2. : empty, insubstantial.

Yep .... Fits.

 

[DrewPaul]

We cannot make decisions for other nations but some of us have forgotten the democracy and sovereignty comes with a price.

I was in favor of sending whatever military armaments necessary that would actually drive Putin's army back. Instead we sent just enough to keep the war going indefinitely. I'm not on board with that strategy...shit or get off the pot.

 

[NJBob]

France =/= Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians

Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians weren't nations after the Soviet invasion nor under Nazi occupation.

Fact.

Nor after the Germans were driven out. The Baltics were forcibly absorbed in the the Soviet Union until its collapse.

Don’t blame them for joining NATO at their first opportunity.

 

[Tigerace117]

France =/= Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians

Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians weren't nations after the Soviet invasion nor under Nazi occupation.

Fact.

It’s a fact that your claims are completely nonsense.

According to you, occupation means a nation doesn’t exist....so France wouldn’t have existed in 1940.

 

[Tigerace117]

Nor after the Germans were driven out. The Baltics were forcibly absorbed in the the Soviet Union until its collapse.

Don’t blame them for joining NATO at their first opportunity.

The Baltic States happily helped the Germans massacre as many of their local Jewish population as they could. Collaboration was enthusiastic and widespread.

They weren’t “victims” in any way, shape or form.

 

[Fledermaus]

The Baltic States happily helped the Germans massacre as many of their local Jewish population as they could. Collaboration was enthusiastic and widespread.

They weren’t “victims” in any way, shape or form.

Baltic peoples, yes

Baltic states, no.

Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians weren't nations after the Soviet invasion nor under Nazi occupation.

It’s a fact that your claims are completely nonsense.

According to you, occupation means a nation doesn’t exist....so France wouldn’t have existed in 1940.

France =/= Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians.

Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians weren't nations after the Soviet invasion nor under Nazi occupation.

 

[Tigerace117]

Baltic peoples, yes

Baltic states, no.

Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians weren't nations after the Soviet invasion nor under Nazi occupation.



France =/= Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians.

Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians weren't nations after the Soviet invasion nor under Nazi occupation.

Gee, so, again, by your “logic” France must have eased to exist in 1940.

You have yet to provide even a single iota of evidence to support your contention that “France doesn’t equate”.

 

[Fledermaus]

Gee, so, again, by your “logic” France must have eased to exist in 1940.

You have yet to provide even a single iota of evidence to support your contention that “France doesn’t equate”.

You continue to plow on about France.

France =/= Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians.

Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians weren't nations after the Soviet invasion nor under Nazi occupation.

Why do you continue to intentionally ignore those facts?

 

[Tigerace117]

You continue to plow on about France.

France =/= Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians.

Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians weren't nations after the Soviet invasion nor under Nazi occupation.

Why do you continue to intentionally ignore those facts?

You continue to flail, unable to provide even a single reason as to why France “still existed as a nation” under Nazi occupation but the Baltic States wouldn’t.

Which is deeply telling.

 

[oneworld2]

I accept 2 realities.

Ukraine can't win this war by itself as in pushing Russia from it's territory. Money and arms are not enough.

No one is sending troops to help them push Russia out.

I agree with those two points, so where we might differ is just what is the reasoning for continuing with those two positions?

For me it's not about the West or even Ukraine seriously thinking they can win this war in the current situation with those two positions continuing. It's obvious to you and me that they can't, so it's obvious to the people in power.

For me it's about the USA weakening Russia by using Ukraine and Ukrainians as the cannon fodder. As much has been stated by some in the US senate when they rejoiced the aid to Ukraine being the best money that could be spent.

BTW I think there are plenty of western troops in there already but I accept that nothing like the numbers required to ever turn the tide.

 

[oneworld2]

"Western values" were embodied in the Budapest Memorandum signed by the USA, Russia, and Great Britain, guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty if they would give up their nuclear weapons left by the collapse of the USSR. They gave them up and now they're been Trumped on.

Nope, imo, there is a mountain of evidence to support the idea that support for a nations sovereignty ISN'T valued by the West. Hegemons don't respect or value the sovereignty of others although they may use the notion as a ruse like they have with Ukraine. If it were not so Ukraine would have been invited to discuss the terms to end the war in Saudi , along with the US and Russia?

 

[NJBob]

The Baltic States happily helped the Germans massacre as many of their local Jewish population as they could. Collaboration was enthusiastic and widespread.

They weren’t “victims” in any way, shape or form.

Utter nonsense.

Many nations had collaborators, France, Denmark, Poland. But that’s not an excuse to broad bush the entire country and its people.

And don’t forget the Soviets exiled hundreds of thousands of people from the Baltics, many to Siberia, and replaced them with Russians in hopes of destroying their languages and cultures.

It’s the Russians that create victims everywhere they go.