Ukrainian Sovereignty Was The Paramount "Western Value" That Was The Driver In Western Support Of The War. ( until it wasn't )

[oneworld2]

10,000 Russian tanks have rolled into europe under Putin. Who was the last leader to do that?

Saddam Hussein was a " Hitler". Assad was a " Hitler". Qaddafi was a " Hitler". Hamas are all little " Hitlers". Notice a pattern?

 

[Manc Skipper]

Nope, imo, there is a mountain of evidence to support the idea that support for a nations sovereignty ISN'T valued by the West. Hegemons don't respect or value the sovereignty of others although they may use the notion as a ruse like they have with Ukraine. If it were not so Ukraine would have been invited to discuss the terms to end the war in Saudi , along with the US and Russia?

It lasted until agent Krasnov disrupted the balance of power.

 

[oneworld2]

It lasted until agent Krasnov disrupted the balance of power.

Again, if it were true and we are just talking about the case of Ukraine, why were they excluded from the talks undertaken in Saudi to end the war ?

 

[Fledermaus]

You continue to flail, unable to provide even a single reason as to why France “still existed as a nation” under Nazi occupation but the Baltic States wouldn’t.

Which is deeply telling.

France =/= Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians.

Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians weren't nations after the Soviet invasion nor under Nazi occupation

 

[Fledermaus]

Saddam Hussein was a " Hitler". Assad was a " Hitler". Qaddafi was a " Hitler". Hamas are all little " Hitlers". Notice a pattern?

Yes.... Mass murders and/or Terrorist attacks.

 

[oneworld2]

Yes.... Mass murders and/or Terrorist attacks.

So how come GW Bush's terrorism/mass murder in Iraq and Afghanistan never earned him the comparison? Or the Israeli terrorist/genocidal attack on Gaza earn Netanyahu the comparison?

Don't bother answering because I already know that your views are NOT based on reality or adherence to any other principle than hopeless partisan cheer leading.

 

[Fledermaus]

So how come GW Bush's terrorism/mass murder in Iraq and Afghanistan never earned him the comparison? Or the Israeli terrorist/genocidal attack on Gaza earn Netanyahu the comparison?

Don't bother answering because I already know that your views are NOT based on reality or adherence to any other principle than hopeless partisan cheer leading.

You might have missed the whole war thing in regards to Bush I and Bush II.

Oh, and the number one killer of Iraqis after the US invasion and ass kicking was other Iraqis.

Same with Afghanistan.

War.

You may have heard of it.

 

[iguanaman]

Saddam Hussein was a " Hitler". Assad was a " Hitler". Qaddafi was a " Hitler". Hamas are all little " Hitlers". Notice a pattern?

I notice that Putin is the first world leader to launch 10,000 Tanks on a european nation since Hitler. How is that not like Hitler?

 

[iguanaman]

I was in favor of sending whatever military armaments necessary that would actually drive Putin's army back. Instead we sent just enough to keep the war going indefinitely. I'm not on board with that strategy...shit or get off the pot.

Ukraine has killed or maimed 800,000 Russians with our help. Who knew that Putin would shrug off such horrendous losses and just pay $40,000 each to sign up more Russians to die in meat waves? Putin is a psychotic mass murderer and no one expected it. No country on earth has sustained anywhere near these casualties since WWII.

 

[iguanaman]

Unlike you conscientious warmongers who want to righteously bring us WW3 under the orders of Emperor Senile and his sidekick Miss Giggly.

You can make up funny names but that changes nothing. Trump will not end any wars and will likely cause more. Appeasing murderous dictators has a way of doing that.

 

[iguanaman]

Again, if it were true and we are just talking about the case of Ukraine, why were they excluded from the talks undertaken in Saudi to end the war ?

Because Putin would not send anyone to negotiate if Ukraine was there. He does not want peace in Ukraine he wants a "new world order" with Russia at the top.

 

[oneworld2]

I notice that Putin is the first world leader to launch 10,000 Tanks on a european nation since Hitler. How is that not like Hitler?

So you just ignore the list of other " Hitlers" the West comes up with every few years ?

The difference between Hitlers decision to launch that number of tanks into battle was based on mass territorial expansion, Putin's decision was based, imo, on a massive and hostile military alliance creeping ever more closer to encirclement of his nation and his wish to have the historical invasion point of attacks from the the West secured against potential further attack.

 

[oneworld2]

Because Putin would not send anyone to negotiate if Ukraine was there. He does not want peace in Ukraine he wants a "new world order" with Russia at the top.

Wow, I can't believe people still fall for this rubbish.

 

[iguanaman]

So you just ignore the list of other " Hitlers" the West comes up with every few years ?

The difference between Hitlers decision to launch that number of tanks into battle was based on mass territorial expansion, Putin's decision was based, imo, on a massive and hostile military alliance creeping ever more closer to encirclement of his nation and his wish to have the historical invasion point of attacks from the the West secured against potential further attack.

Invading your neighbor is the definition of mass territorial expansion. Putin now shares 1300km of his border with a NATO nation and he hasn't even twitched. Putin's goal is to take Ukraine and then conscript Ukrainians to fight his next war. Ukrainians would rather die killing Russians than killing for Russia. They will never surrender and if they are desperate enough they will target Moscow with dirty bombs and Putin cannot do a thing about it. Putin will lose this war and lose his dictatorship soon after.

 

[Fledermaus]

So you just ignore the list of other " Hitlers" the West comes up with every few years ?

The difference between Hitlers decision to launch that number of tanks into battle was based on mass territorial expansion, Putin's decision was based, imo, on a massive and hostile military alliance creeping ever more closer to encirclement of his nation and his wish to have the historical invasion point of attacks from the the West secured against potential further attack.

So Putin secures his borders by launching an unprovoked invasion on a sovereign neighbor and getting his military forces brutalized to the point he is using Wagner and the North Korean forces.....

Interesting.

 

[anatta]

Back to Russia, Russia, Russia. Amazing how folks on the side lines with a nice home, hot and cold running water and plenty of food minus any bombs going off want the suffering to continue indefinitely. Not that they have any stake in it. No skin off their nose.

but but what about the Baltics?

 

[anatta]

Wow, I can't believe people still fall for this rubbish.

its how endless war is justified. War is better then peace because you know Putin is licking his chops for more ( which he can never get)

 

[Fledermaus]

but but what about the Baltics?

What about the Baltics?

Other than they were too invaded by the USSR in an unprovoked attack.

 

[iguanaman]

its how endless war is justified. War is better then peace because you know Putin is licking his chops for more ( which he can never get)

If he "gets" Ukraine he will use Ukraine to target other former members of the soviet bloc. He will not agree to any peace agreement that precludes him from taking all of Ukraine when he is ready. If you want peace then tell Putin to agree to freezing current lines and allow outside peacekeepers to police the agreement. You can't do that can you?

 

[anatta]

Spare me the bollocks redbaron

He was voted in on a landslide, in no small part, down to a commitment to end the war in Donbas, He didn't follow through on that.

Then when there was the possibility of a diplomatic end to the Russian invasion in April 2022 he folded under western pressure to keep on fighting.

Zelensky is not a victim, he is a western wannabe that, imo, has been working for the West not in the interests of his own people, hundreds of thousands of whom have died in a needless war.

Your posting history here is one of support for the US proxy war with Russia via Ukraine, so like him, I don't think you give a toss about Ukraine or Ukrainians.

It was Biden who quashed any possibility of talks. Z is his marionette because he needs the money and weapons.
Trump come in and blows up that cozy affair..Trump is bombastic, erratic, but on the side of ending the war -

 

[DrewPaul]

Ukraine has killed or maimed 800,000 Russians with our help. Who knew that Putin would shrug off such horrendous losses and just pay $40,000 each to sign up more Russians to die in meat waves? Putin is a psychotic mass murderer and no one expected it. No country on earth has sustained anywhere near these casualties since WWII.

More accurate figure: 198,000 killed, 550,000 wounded. I take it you place no value on human life if its on the wrong side.

Ukraine last updated its casualty figures in December 2024, when President Volodymyr Zelensky acknowledged 43,000 Ukrainian deaths among soldiers and officers. Western analysts believe this figure to be an under-estimate.

It doesn't include civilian deaths and the fact many of their cities are rubble. Do you think if this continues eventually Russia will pull back, give Ukrainians their territory back and accept their heart felt apology? And then pay reparations? You know that's never going to happen right?

Just let the death, destruction and suffering continue and the US should pay for it...no skin off your back.

 

[anatta]

If he "gets" Ukraine he will use Ukraine to target other former members of the soviet bloc. He will not agree to any peace agreement that precludes him from taking all of Ukraine when he is ready. If you want peace then tell Putin to agree to freezing current lines and allow outside peacekeepers to police the agreement. You can't do that can you?

he's not going to "get Ukraine" He couldn't even when Ukraine didn't have the weapons it has now .he'll get a slice of that land bridge in the east. Please stop jumping the gun with erratic "logic"

 

[oneworld2]

Invading your neighbor is the definition of mass territorial expansion. Putin now shares 1300km of his border with a NATO nation and he hasn't even twitched. Putin's goal is to take Ukraine and then conscript Ukrainians to fight his next war. Ukrainians would rather die killing Russians than killing for Russia. They will never surrender and if they are desperate enough they will target Moscow with dirty bombs and Putin cannot do a thing about it.

And yet the Russians have tried to get a deal without having to invade Ukraine in both Minsk and weeks prior to the war. Why bother if the deal is to take over Ukraine?

They wanted Ukraine to renounce its constitutional pledge to join NATO, the Ukrainians decided not to and so they got invaded. Had they have not made that call the likelihood is the war could have never have taken place at all and/or ended as soon as it began.

I think Putin knew that there would be risks in invading Ukraine but was prepared to take them. Sometimes there are no good choices.

Ukraine is being wrecked in a war they cannot win and you want them to die in droves just to see Russia weakened?

Your pots are childish warmongering shite imo, so you can have the last word.

 

[iguanaman]

It was Biden who quashed any possibility of talks. Z is his marionette because he needs the money and weapons.
Trump come in and blows up that cozy affair..Trump is bombastic, erratic, but on the side of ending the war -

Putin does not want talks even now so how did Biden quash anything? Trump does not care if Russia takes all of Ukraine and as long as he has that attitude there will be no peace. Ukraine will never surrender to Putin.

 

[iguanaman]

he's not going to "get Ukraine" He couldn't even when Ukraine didn't have the weapons it has now .he'll get a slice of that land bride in the east. Please stop jumping he gun with erratic "logic"

He will never stop trying and that is why he will not allow outside peacekeepers. He will use that "slice" to launch more attacks as soon as his military is ready. Ukraine has no reason to allow Putin time to regroup and resupply his military and they will not accept any agreement meant to allow that. They want a lasting peace so they can rebuild their nation. Don't you want a lasting peace?