Turkey carries out air attacks in Iraq

[washunut]

You do realize the US worked with terrorist groups in the 80's, 90's and 00's dont you. From Hezbollah and AQ in the 90s to PJAK/PKK in the 00's.

That the US works with and supports dictatorships currently that are as bad as Iran,

Should US citizens be proud of that record?

That is not what this thread is about. You can try and deflect, but we are not talking about America's record here.

 

[kaya'08]

Just seems like the Kurds could be having similar problems. Not sure if it is a cultural thing as I do not claim to know much about the Turkish people.

I can assure you it is not a cultural thing to want and oppress a minority.
I think many people underestimate us. Turkey has gay marches, civil unions, fair elections, a human rights institution (pending in accordance to EU constitutional changes anyway) and measures to protect the rights of women is actually inscribed in our constitution. I believe a state is a reflection of the people's cultural attitudes. We have adopted enlightenment. Living in a muslim majority nation, keeping our secularism is a daily battle, whereas it has become natural in the Western world. Im not saying we are perfect, because we are far from it.

recently they have made the news with the Kurds, supporting Iran at the U.N. and supporting Hamas. Not much of a record a citizen would be proud of.

Its the AKP, i wouldnt worry too much. I hate them, the army ates them. Just hope he looses the next election (and it looks likely) or at the very least forced to form a coalition.

 

[ferrugem]

I call an international full scale investigation on the barbaric turks who murdured innocent kurds who only wants freedom!!

 

[joergan]

Turkey brought this up a couple of years ago or so when it found US sourcec weapons in the hands of PKK militants. Which of course would make the US a terrorist funding/supporting nation

Anyone who claims that iran is merely supporting the "freedom fighters" of hamas and hez, has no moral leverage whatsoever complaining about the US aiding the PKK.

And now with Turkey aiding and abetting Hamas, I would personally write a large check to the PKK to support their efforts.

 

[joergan]

Erdogan isn't the only person fond of double standards.

We know the US funded the taliban when the soviets occupied Afghanistan.

Today, our men pay the price. A very thin line separates us from the likes of Iran and Syria. A very thin line. But i do not blame today's administration for yesterday's mistakes.

This is the same baloney about the US aiding saddam - what was the alternative? Allowing the USSR to add Afghanistan into its orbit of control?

 

[joergan]

You do realize the US worked with terrorist groups in the 80's, 90's and 00's dont you. From Hezbollah and AQ in the 90s to PJAK/PKK in the 00's.

The US sold weapons to iran thru iran contra, not to hezbollah. It also never worked with al qaeda, it aided the taliban.

That the US works with and supports dictatorships currently that are as bad as Iran,

This is true - look at egypt and SA - but again, what is the alternative? Should the US support free and fair elections in egypt - like they did in Gaza - in a nation without a functioning civil infrastructure - so that the muslim brotherhood can take power?

How would it help matters if like Turkey and iran, religious parties take over governments in egypt, jordan and saudi arabia?

 

[joergan]

I can assure you it is not a cultural thing to want and oppress a minority.
I think many people underestimate us. Turkey has gay marches, civil unions, fair elections, a human rights institution (pending in accordance to EU constitutional changes anyway) and measures to protect the rights of women is actually inscribed in our constitution. I believe a state is a reflection of the people's cultural attitudes. We have adopted enlightenment. Living in a muslim majority nation, keeping our secularism is a daily battle, whereas it has become natural in the Western world. Im not saying we are perfect, because we are far from it.

The funny thing is that it is a fabulous country, awesome people and food - but it needs the military to remove Erdogan and his cronies, asap.

 

[alexa]

This is the same baloney about the US aiding saddam - what was the alternative? Allowing the USSR to add Afghanistan into its orbit of control?

The alternative would have been to support, fund and train Afghan fighters like Abdul Haq, rather than insane arabs who were released from Arab jails where they were imprisoned for their extreme views and where they had been made more insane from the torture they had experienced there.

The US were well aware that these people were religious fanatics yet still chose to fund them instead. (I suspect this is off topic and have argued this before and have no intention on getting into it again, but there certainly was an alternative. )

 

[joergan]

And in today's news, speaking of the devil:

Turkish PM vows to crush Kurdish rebels - Yahoo! News

Turkish PM vows to crush Kurdish rebels

By SELCAN HACAOGLU, Associated Press Writer
2 hrs 22 mins ago

ANKARA, Turkey – Turkey's prime minister traveled to his country's border with Iraq to assess security on Sunday and vowed that Kurdish rebels who killed 12 Turkish soldiers in cross-border attacks will "drown in their own blood."

Turkish warplanes bombed the hideouts of Turkish Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq on Saturday after the rebel attack on a Turkish military outpost on the border.

Kurdish rebels based in northern Iraq have dramatically escalated their attacks on Turkish targets this month after their imprisoned leader, Abdullah Ocalan, accused Turkey of not establishing dialogue with his Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, at a funeral earlier Sunday for 11 of the soldiers in the southeastern city of Van, said: "They will never win. They will obtain nothing. They will drown in their own blood."

He added that the armed forces would give the "necessary answer" to the rebels who he said were threatening the country's stability.

An Iraqi Kurdish official on Sunday said the Turkish raid killed a teenage Iraqi Kurdish girl — the first reported civilian death in sparsely populated border areas that have been often targeted by Turkish warplanes. Karmang Ezzat, mayor of the border town of Soran, said the girl's mother and 3-year-old brother also were wounded in the attack.

<WHERE IS THE UN/EU/MEDIA OUTCRY? WHY IS THERE ONLY SILENCE??!?!? And people wonder why israelis complain about double standards?>

It was not clear how many Kurdish rebels might have been killed in the latest air assault but the Turkish military on Friday said about 120 rebels had been killed in air strikes and one incursion into northern Iraq over the past month. The rebels use Iraqi soil as a springboard for attacks in their war for autonomy in Turkey's Kurdish-dominated southeast.

Turkish President Abdullah Gul is scheduled to chair a security summit in the capital, Ankara, on Monday to discuss the stepped-up rebel attacks that have fueled Turkish nationalism and led to calls for a tougher government response.

The rebel attacks have also inflicted a heavy blow on the government's efforts to reconcile with minority Kurds by offering more cultural and political rights, including Kurdish language broadcasts on television.

Turkey, however, refuses to negotiate with the rebels and rejects their demands to declare an unconditional amnesty that would include top rebel commanders, including Ocalan, and allow the use of the Kurdish language in schools, parliament and other official settings.

<I guess democracy can only go so far, eh?>

Still, Erdogan said his government was determined to maintain reforms to reconcile with the Kurdish people in the hopes of ending the 26-year-old conflict that battered the country's southeast and troubled Turkey's bid for membership of the European Union.

"In spite of terror we will elevate our brotherhood and unity even more," Erdogan said.

Turkey has staged several incursions into northern Iraq but the rebels always made a comeback after the troops withdrew. The last major incursion was in February 2008. The conflict has killed as many as 40,000 people since the rebels took up arms in 1984. The United States and the European Union class the PKK as a terrorist organization.

 

[washunut]

I can assure you it is not a cultural thing to want and oppress a minority.
I think many people underestimate us. Turkey has gay marches, civil unions, fair elections, a human rights institution (pending in accordance to EU constitutional changes anyway) and measures to protect the rights of women is actually inscribed in our constitution. I believe a state is a reflection of the people's cultural attitudes. We have adopted enlightenment. Living in a muslim majority nation, keeping our secularism is a daily battle, whereas it has become natural in the Western world. Im not saying we are perfect, because we are far from it.



Its the AKP, i wouldnt worry too much. I hate them, the army ates them. Just hope he looses the next election (and it looks likely) or at the very least forced to form a coalition.

Thanks, like I said I know little about the Turkish nation.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

The US sold weapons to iran thru iran contra, not to hezbollah. It also never worked with al qaeda, it aided the taliban.



This is true - look at egypt and SA - but again, what is the alternative? Should the US support free and fair elections in egypt - like they did in Gaza - in a nation without a functioning civil infrastructure - so that the muslim brotherhood can take power?

How would it help matters if like Turkey and iran, religious parties take over governments in egypt, jordan and saudi arabia?

In Kosovo the US government worked with Hezbollah and AQ to support the KLA vs the Serbian military

From Afghanistan to Iraq: Transplanting CIA Engineered Terrorism

Priest and Low do not mention this “cooperation,” nor do they mention the fact that the Mujahideen cum al-Qaeda were put to use elsewhere after the Soviets fled Afghanistan. “Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda terrorist network has been active in the Balkans for years, most recently helping Kosovo rebels battle for independence from Serbia with the financial and military backing of the United States and NATO,” Isabel Vincent wrote for the National Post, a fact apparently confirmed by an FBI document. “The arrival in the Balkans of the so-called Afghan Arabs, who are from various Middle Eastern states and linked to al-Qaeda, began in 1992 soon after the war in Bosnia.”

In the years immediately before the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999, the al-Qaeda militants moved into Kosovo, the southern province of Serbia, to help ethnic Albanian extremists of the KLA mount their terrorist campaign against Serb targets in the region … The United States, which had originally trained the Afghan Arabs during the war in Afghanistan, supported them in Bosnia and then in Kosovo. When NATO forces launched their military campaign against Yugoslavia [in March, 1999] to unseat [Slobodan] Milosevic, they entered the Kosovo conflict on the side of the KLA [Kosovo Liberation Army], which had already received “substantial” military and financial support from bin Laden’s network, analysts say.

In other words, the United States was supporting al-Qaeda after the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania in August, 1998, events attributed to al-Qaeda and thus, we are told, prompting Clinton to bomb “training camps” (constructed earlier by the CIA) in Afghanistan on August 20 of that same year. Remarkably, in a story published by Jerry Seper in the Washington Times, the bedfellow relationship between Clinton, Osama bin Laden, and the KLA was spelled out:

Some members of the Kosovo Liberation Army, which has financed its war effort through the sale of heroin, were trained in terrorist camps run by international fugitive Osama bin Laden, who is wanted in the 1998 bombing of two U.S. embassies in Africa that killed 224 persons, including twelve Americans … The KLA members, embraced by the Clinton administration in NATO’s bombing campaign to bring Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic to the bargaining table, were trained in secret camps in Afghanistan… and elsewhere, according to newly obtained intelligence reports. … The reports also show that the KLA has enlisted Islamic terrorists, members of the Mujahideen, as soldiers in its ongoing conflict against Serbia, and that many already have been smuggled into Kosovo to join the fight. … The reports said bin Laden’s organization, known as al-Qaeda, has both trained and financially supported the KLA.

 

[kaya'08]

This is the same baloney about the US aiding saddam - what was the alternative? Allowing the USSR to add Afghanistan into its orbit of control?

Sabotage, espionage. What is Syria supposed to do? Let Israel raid more land? Thats THERE mentality anyway, and they think they are justifying there actions the way you are. Works both ways. And Ferrugem. Shut up. lol.

 

[joergan]

In Kosovo the US government worked with Hezbollah and AQ to support the KLA vs the Serbian military

From Afghanistan to Iraq: Transplanting CIA Engineered Terrorism

#1- hezbollah is not even mentioned once in the article
#2- this is not a msm news source
#3-the CIA helped the taliban fight the USSR - and you avoided my point about temporary allies, i wonder why....

 

[Simba]

Good practice. I love the Turks. Nato member. Always supported US. Never attacked us. Always fought for us when we needed help.

An attack on one Nato member is an attack on us all. Surprised Turkey didn't make that call.

 

[mbig]

In Kosovo the US government worked with Hezbollah and AQ to support the KLA vs the Serbian military

ttp://www. globalresearch.ca/a rticles/NIM501 A.html]From Afghanistan to Iraq: Transplanting CIA Engineered Terrorism[/url]

#1- hezbollah is not even mentioned once in the article
#2- this is not a msm news source
#3-the CIA helped the taliban fight the USSR - and you avoided my point about temporary allies, i wonder why....

It's not only "not an msm source" it's an infamous/laughable Conspiracy site.. GlobalResearch.ca. :^)
Replete with the usual anti-USA/Anti-Israel crap and 9/11 Garbage galore. GlobalResearch.ca - Centre for Research on Globalization
The article by the equally infamous and wacky Kurt numb-nuts Nimmo.

One would only post the above not knowing much about the internet or trying desperately to find anything that agrees with a warped opinion.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

It's not only "not an msm source" it's an infamous/laughable Conspiracy site.. GlobalResearch.ca. :^)
Replete with the usual anti-USA/Anti-Israel crap and 9/11 Garbage galore. GlobalResearch.ca - Centre for Research on Globalization
The article by the equally infamous and wacky Kurt numb-nuts Nimmo.

One would only post the above not knowing much about the internet or trying desperately to find anything that agrees with a warped opinion.

So the US never worked with terrorist organizations before? It never helped the KLA, and the Afghani Arabs never were in Kosovo? Hezbollah never transported weapons to Kosovo, and the US never assisted in that work?


Sure just like Saddam had a stockpile of WMD's in 2002, that the magicall WMD fairly teleported away

 

[Simba]

If you are going to argue with Tammerlain, youngster, you are going to lose.

 

[mbig]

So the US never worked with terrorist organizations before? It never helped the KLA, and the Afghani Arabs never were in Kosovo? Hezbollah never transported weapons to Kosovo, and the US never assisted in that work?

Sure just like Saddam had a stockpile of WMD's in 2002, that the magicall WMD fairly teleported away

I'm sure we have.
Politics and war make strange bedfellows.
Sometimes, not even when they were terrorist organizations.
Such as the Twin Goofies: "We created Osama" when in fact he wasn't a terrorist yet...
And and it's pair "we supported Saddam".. when he was at war with Death-to-America-Iran.
Whoever we helped in Kosovo helped prevent further Genocide OF muslims.

Of course that's what a Conspiracy/anti-USA site turns into nefarious deeds.
And it would only figure who would support you posting an Anti-American site like that.

There are no permanent allies, only permanent Interests.
- Lord Palmertson

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

I'm sure we have.
Politics and war make strange bedfellows.
Sometimes, not even when they were terrorist organizations.
Such as the Twin Goofies: "We created Osama" when in fact he wasn't a terrorist yet...
And and it's pair "we supported Saddam".. when he was at war with Death-to-America-Iran.
Whoever we helped in Kosovo helped prevent further Genocide OF muslims.

Of course that's what a Conspiracy/anti-USA site turns into nefarious deeds.
And it would only figure who would support you posting an Anti-American site like that.

There are no permanent allies, only permanent Interests.
- Lord Palmertson

So what is the point of this then

Are you now saying the US did work with AQ and Hezbollah in Kosovo in support of the KLA.

I can always find other articles that present the facts in a more precise and clear fashion, I have done so in the past on the exact same subject, the one I did was one of the first that popped open on the google search. I didnt feel like finding the better ones.

As you say Politics and war make for strange bedfellows, which does mean that when you get into bed with someone, dont be suprised when you are called on it. Especially if you are being hypocritical about it

 

[mbig]

So what is the point of this then

Are you now saying the US did work with AQ and Hezbollah in Kosovo in support of the KLA.

I can always find other articles that present the facts in a more precise and clear fashion, I have done so in the past on the exact same subject, the one I did was one of the first that popped open on the google search. I didnt feel like finding the better ones.

As you say Politics and war make for strange bedfellows, which does mean that when you get into bed with someone, dont be suprised when you are called on it. Especially if you are being hypocritical about it

Could be!
The point being what I said it was in my last.
Politics and war makes strange bedfellows.
I think it would go to Motive.. as I said in my last too.
If we were, ie, trying to save Muslims/prevent Genocide, we might work with many.
Another, ie, During WWII we worked with the Mafia because of their Italian ties. And other times as well.

If OTOH, we were working with a group to intentionally cause civilian casualties... 'terrorism' with no larger military outcome for the greater good in mind, that would be evil.
It's not easy being defender of the free world. Some ugly decisions are made so the Brits and EUers can keep their free Health Care and not build ships. It's easy to point to abuses when someone Else is the world's policmen.

But ya see.. that Isn't the case and GlobalResearch, whatreallyhappened, Prisonplanet, Chomskyites (incl DemocracyNow you Not coincidentally just posted in another string in this section) , Guardian/il Manipesto readers, and assorted other America Bashers can't make it into Evil.
Nor can you.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

If you are going to argue with Tammerlain, youngster, you are going to lose.

Moderator's Warning:

Please don't bait other posters. Stay on topic.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Could be!
The point being what I said it was in my last.
Politics and war makes strange bedfellows.
I think it would go to Motive.. as I said in my last too.
If we were, ie, trying to save Muslims/prevent Genocide, we might work with many.
Another, ie, During WWII we worked with the Mafia because of their Italian ties. And other times as well.

If OTOH, we were working with a group to intentionally cause civilian casualties... 'terrorism' with no larger military outcome for the greater good in mind, that would be evil.
It's not easy being defender of the free world. Some ugly decisions are made so the Brits and EUers can keep their free Health Care and not build ships. It's easy to point to abuses when someone Else is the world's policmen.

But ya see.. that Isn't the case and GlobalResearch, whatreallyhappened, Prisonplanet, Chomskyites (incl DemocracyNow you Not coincidentally just posted in another string in this section) , Guardian/il Manipesto readers, and assorted other America Bashers can't make it into Evil.
Nor can you.

Where did I say it was EVIL?

I just posted that the US worked with terrorists,

 

[Simba]

Where did I say it was EVIL?

I just posted that the US worked with terrorists,

True. We have. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

 

[mbig]

Where did I say it was EVIL?

I just posted that the US worked with terrorists,

And I explained why it's a Big "SO what".
And If it wasn't "evil" your posts were Senseless, nonaccusations.
But that of course wasn't how you meant them/Isn't why one post GlobalRegurgitation.ca

And I might add, it's Off Topic to this string, about Turkish abuse of both Innocent Kurds and any elements working with Hamas.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

What then was the purpose of these attacks?