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Transwomen are not women and why radfems object to the idea

maquiscat

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If being a woman is not based on female attributes, but what a person (male or female) feels on the inside, then it follows that we can never know if someone is a man or woman unless they tell us.

It renders those words meaningless.
Meaningfulness is subjective. And given that we are developing language to accommodate more than one gender, the closer reality is that the meaning of the terms "man" and "woman" are no longer so broad.

Part of the problem arises from our predecessors insisting that X, Y, and Z characteristics can only be male or female or man or woman. For example, right now high heels is only a woman's fashion, despite the fact that when first invented, they were a men's only fashion. Furthermore, there is the insistence that certain physical looks must belong to one or the other. There are plenty of males, who identify as men, who look what we currently call feminine. And the same for female women looking "masculine". These assignments are completely arbitrary and artificial.

But let me ask you this question. Outside of the sex bit that you enjoy having when screwing or other similar activities, what significance is it which word applies to whom? How important is it actually that either "man" or "woman" is applied to a given individual? Outside of medical, how important is "male" or "female" as a label to a given individual?
 

Aristaeus

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Meaningfulness is subjective. And given that we are developing language to accommodate more than one gender, the closer reality is that the meaning of the terms "man" and "woman" are no longer so broad.

Part of the problem arises from our predecessors insisting that X, Y, and Z characteristics can only be male or female or man or woman. For example, right now high heels is only a woman's fashion, despite the fact that when first invented, they were a men's only fashion. Furthermore, there is the insistence that certain physical looks must belong to one or the other. There are plenty of males, who identify as men, who look what we currently call feminine. And the same for female women looking "masculine". These assignments are completely arbitrary and artificial.

But let me ask you this question. Outside of the sex bit that you enjoy having when screwing or other similar activities, what significance is it which word applies to whom? How important is it actually that either "man" or "woman" is applied to a given individual? Outside of medical, how important is "male" or "female" as a label to a given individual?
It is important for numerous reasons, both philosophical and practical.

Males (historically the oppresive sex) are denying females (historically the oppressed sex) the right to define themselves. It's whitewashing their own history, for example the fight for women's suffrage loses importance because now apprently women have always had vote.

Practically, how do we monitor the pay gap between men and women, and the number of women in the boardroom if men can become women?

What is the future for women's sports if biological males can compete with the obvious physical advantage they have? What happens if men's heavyweight boxing champion Anthony Joshua decides he's now a woman and wants to keep fighting?

What do we tell women who are uncomfortable getting undressed in front of a strange male with penis in a dressing room?

If a male rapist says they identify as a woman do they go to male or female prison?
 

The Old Soul

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You do realize that these are separate things, yes? TS is actually up in the air. Part of the community sees it as an insult, while others see it as a label for those who have medically transitioned all the way, according to readings I have done.
Yes, I do understand (and accept) the differences, but often TG/TS/TV are Lumped together by those who are four square against anything but the display and mannerisms of 'proper' gender and sexual roles. A lot of the difference is how mental and physical attraction and motivations drives their predispositions, but few understand that.

Sadly, the conflict within the community is often both valid and/or disingenuous; does the TV truly understand (or care) what the TS feels? The TG may look upon the lingerie fetishist as crude, and not understand the proclivity is sexual and not purely a gender issue. Trying to quantify the spectrum of variances with just 3 labels is difficult to as many drives are in several fields at once - is a TS who is attracted to females a lesbian at heart, or gay? Is feminine subservience a manifestation of masochism? Is F to M a component of sadism and fulfills the need to escape penis envy by assuming the dominant gender? There are way too many intermingling drives and motivations to stick a generic label on anyone of them - this is an almostly infinitely variable conundrum.
 

maquiscat

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This whole post is a classic example of the bias and bigotry of those who are anti-trans. There is not one problem here that deals with FtM, as if such a thing didn't exist

Males (historically the oppresive sex) are denying females (historically the oppressed sex) the right to define themselves.
By the same standards, then females are denying males the right to define themselves, because females are becoming men. But when you look deeper, males are doing it to males and females to females as well since there is all this talk or "A real man does X" or "a real woman wouldn't do Y".

It's whitewashing their own history, for example the fight for women's suffrage loses importance because now apprently women have always had vote.
Not really, because historically, such crossing of the lines, so to speak, wasn't allowed. Furthermore, the more conservative factions are seeking to deny any transgender their rights, so they are in the same boat.

Practically, how do we monitor the pay gap between men and women, and the number of women in the boardroom if men can become women?
If the MtF is passible, and most are, then they are going to suffer the same discriminations as cis women do. Do you have any kind of study that show transwomen are consistently doing better than cis women?

What is the future for women's sports if biological males can compete with the obvious physical advantage they have? What happens if men's heavyweight boxing champion Anthony Joshua decides he's now a woman and wants to keep fighting?
Have you not noticed that this is the one area where even most of the transcommunity is in agreement? That said, if I am featherweight, I am never going to be placed against a heavyweight. If we can divide up men among catagories to even the playing field, then we can certainly do this among mixed sports.

What do we tell women who are uncomfortable getting undressed in front of a strange male with penis in a dressing room?
What do we tell women who are uncomfortable getting undressed in front of a strange lesbian female with a vagina in a dressing room? Or men uncomfortable getting undressed with gay men with penises in a dressing room? Or even straight women or men respectively? What is the dividing line between "understandable" and "suck it up buttercup" when it comes to uncomfortable?

If a male rapist says they identify as a woman do they go to male or female prison?
We're going to put a rapist of women (assumed because you don't strike me as being able to conceptualize a man raping other men or women raping women, despite their existence) into a facility of other women who have committed various violent crimes, and out number him easily 10 to 1 or greater? He really didn't think that through very well did he? I'm not sure, but he might be better off as a pedophile male in a male prison.
 

maquiscat

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Yes, I do understand (and accept) the differences, but often TG/TS/TV are Lumped together by those who are four square against anything but the display and mannerisms of 'proper' gender and sexual roles. A lot of the difference is how mental and physical attraction and motivations drives their predispositions, but few understand that.
I am a little worried about your use of these words here. It seems as if you are conflating orientation with identity.

is a TS who is attracted to females a lesbian at heart, or gay?
I wonder do you mean lesbian or straight, as lesbian is gay. That said, I honestly think that we need to eliminate orientation languages that require both the sex/gender of both parties. the vast majority of the time, a transgender does not change orientation. If they are attracted to men as one, they usually remain attracted to men after they transition. The label might change, but the attraction does not.

Is feminine subservience a manifestation of masochism?
As a member of the BDSM community, I have to ask how are you comparing this to male subservience? And believe me I have seen men pull off very masculine submissiveness.

Is F to M a component of sadism and fulfills the need to escape penis envy by assuming the dominant gender?
This too seems to be conflating two separate things, even if they would tend to appear together often.

There are way too many intermingling drives and motivations to stick a generic label on anyone of them - this is an almostly infinitely variable conundrum.
I think the problem is that too many people are trying to blend too many factors into a single label. My sexual orientation is separate from my sexual/gender identity, as well as separate from my BDSM role, among a number of other factors. While we can look at trends, and see certain combinations come up often, such as being cis-gendered, heterosexual, right handed, we must never assume that variants are detrimental to the overall species.
 

Lisa

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If being a woman is not based on female attributes, but what a person (male or female) feels on the inside, then it follows that we can never know if someone is a man or woman unless they tell us.

It renders those words meaningless.
That is the linguistic progress that happens when we discover new information. Do you also oppose the words germs, viruses, bacteria, and heliocentrism? Or would you prefer to deny information that forces you to reconsider ideas and concepts that you previously knew?
 

Aristaeus

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This whole post is a classic example of the bias and bigotry of those who are anti-trans. There is not one problem here that deals with FtM, as if such a thing didn't exist

By the same standards, then females are denying males the right to define themselves, because females are becoming men. But when you look deeper, males are doing it to males and females to females as well since there is all this talk or "A real man does X" or "a real woman wouldn't do Y".
I'm not anti trans just because I don't believe being a man or woman is a choice. I haven't mentioned transmen because the impact on men is far less. If a man walks into a changing room and sees a female, he's not going to worry about being raped. 90% of sexual assaults are carried out by males. If a woman walks into a changing room or toilet and sees a male there, she will see a potential threat.


Have you not noticed that this is the one area where even most of the transcommunity is in agreement? That said, if I am featherweight, I am never going to be placed against a heavyweight. If we can divide up men among catagories to even the playing field, then we can certainly do this among mixed sports.
So you think Anthony Joshua should be allowed to box against females if he decides he's a woman?

What do we tell women who are uncomfortable getting undressed in front of a strange lesbian female with a vagina in a dressing room? Or men uncomfortable getting undressed with gay men with penises in a dressing room? Or even straight women or men respectively? What is the dividing line between "understandable" and "suck it up buttercup" when it comes to uncomfortable?
The dividing line is the wrong genitals.

Why do you think seperate male and female changing rooms existed in the first place?

We're going to put a rapist of women (assumed because you don't strike me as being able to conceptualize a man raping other men or women raping women, despite their existence) into a facility of other women who have committed various violent crimes, and out number him easily 10 to 1 or greater? He really didn't think that through very well did he? I'm not sure, but he might be better off as a pedophile male in a male prison.

Oh look, a transwoman rapist who was put into a woman's prison and sexually assaulted two female prisoners. Why should females be put at risk to avoid hurting the feelings of a few males? And of course men can rape men, but why would I use that example in this debate?
 

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Transwomen are not women. Transwomen are men who dress like women and sometimes have surgery to make them look more like women.

Woman = adult human female
Female = of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

Transwomen will always have XY genes and will never produce female gametes, hence they are male and thus men.

But why not just go about as though they are if it makes them happy? Why do many radfems object to the idea? Because what we have is a situation where men (the historically oppressive sex) are telling women (the historically oppressed sex) that the word woman is being redefined to allow men access to that class and appropriate their 'culture'. Imagine white people telling black people that not only can white people can identify as black, but white people who do so are just as black as they are and their black culture now also belongs to white people who identify as black. It is men telling women that they (men) are going to define what a woman is, not women. It is fundamentally sexist.

From a practical point, it raises issues: men using women's toilets and changing rooms will make many women uncomfortable. Most transwomen don't go through full surgery, so women are having to get undressed in front of strange men with penises, who will also be undressed. Transwomen in sport is another area where there is an inherent disadvantage for women, and of course, transwomen being appointed to women advocacy roles and getting scholarships aimed at encouraging women into certain industries.

Women who object to their safe spaces being opened up to men, or object to men dictating to them what it is to be a woman, are silenced, doxxed, and called TERFs (trans exclusionary radical feminist). But they're not trans exclusionary, as they have no objection to transmen (females) using women's facilities and culture. What they are are MERFs (male exclusionary radical feminists) which is what they should be - males should be excluded from women's changing rooms, women's sports, and women's career schemes.
I understand that you may resent the inclusion of transwomen into female spaces. While that's unfortunate, your discomfort at their presence alone is not sufficient justification to exclude them. A transwoman is not a threat to you solely because of her genitalia.

Why would you be upset at someone wanting to join your "historically oppressed class"? If they want to that badly, they'll have to suffer the social consequences of being a woman alongside you, won't they?
 

maquiscat

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I'm not anti trans just because I don't believe being a man or woman is a choice.
Amazing! Most transgendered people don't believe that being a man or woman is a choice either. But I find it interesting that you avoided the whole point of people defining what males should be as well.

I haven't mentioned transmen because the impact on men is far less. If a man walks into a changing room and sees a female, he's not going to worry about being raped. 90% of sexual assaults are carried out by males. If a woman walks into a changing room or toilet and sees a male there, she will see a potential threat.
75% of all rapes also occur by someone known to the victim. So a strange male is actually less of a threat. Are you dismissing the threat of rape by other women on women, or of man on man rape, or even woman on man rape? I thought that even one rape was one rape too many. Also how would a woman know if a post-op trans woman was in the changing room with her?


So you think Anthony Joshua should be allowed to box against females if he decides he's a woman?
The implication of this question is that just any woman would be allowed to box against him. As I noted a featherweight wouldn't be allowed to go against him. It would have to be a woman who was on equal footing with him/her. That's how boxing works now. Why would it be any different if women were included with men?

The dividing line is the wrong genitals.
So the lesbian cis female scoping out other women is alright but the pre-op transwoman is somehow a threat, BUT also, the post op trans woman is not a threat.

Why do you think seperate male and female changing rooms existed in the first place?
Because some people have hangups. Personally, if it's a private business, they should decide. There are many places in the world where men and women co-exist in changing and bathing rooms with no problem. The Isreali military comes to mind.


Oh look, a transwoman rapist who was put into a woman's prison and sexually assaulted two female prisoners. Why should females be put at risk to avoid hurting the feelings of a few males? And of course men can rape men, but why would I use that example in this debate?
What is it that is often said with regards to transgenders? Ah yes, that is the exception that proves the rule. First, off what level of prison was that? If it's not one for violent women offenders, then why was a violent offender sent there? If you had a woman who had raped other women would you still send her there? And quite honestly, I find it doubtful (which is why I doubt that White was sent to the correct facility) that a bunch of women who are in for murder and assault and such would not gang up on a rapist as much as men will gang up on a pedophile in a men's prison.
 

Lisa

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I'm not anti-trans just because I don't believe being a man or woman is a choice. I haven't mentioned transmen because the impact on men is far less. If a man walks into a changing room and sees a female, he's not going to worry about being raped. 90% of sexual assaults are carried out by males. If a woman walks into a changing room or toilet and sees a male there, she will see a potential threat.
Being transgdered isn't a choice, just like being LGB also instant a choice,. A person's sexual orientation or gender identity is innate to their being, fixed in their brain, and fixed before birth. If you are born gay/lesbian, bi, or trans you didn't choose it and you cannot ignore it with serious mental health problems being caused.

A trans female is not a male and never was a male, despite her external genitalia. She sees herself as a female and acts like a female because her brain is biologically female. This is why trans p[eople say that they were born in the wrong body because they have the brain of one gender but their body's gender doesn't match their brain's gender. You seem to be confusing a person who is transgendered with someone who is a transvestite, or a sex abuser dressing in drag
Many countries have unisex bathrooms and 99% of people have no problem using the bathroom with the opposite gender and never think of sexually assaulting someone. Maybe it is your projection that you could not use the bathroom with females and not think of sexual assault because of your constant projection.
The fact that transgendered females living full time is taking large doses of estrogen that functionally ends their sex drive also seems to be lost on you and those like you who are convinced that trans females are a threat. The truth is the opposite that a trans female in the female bathroom is often the victim of an assault by conservatives. Trans females have some of the highest rates of assault and murder because of people who hold similar fallacious ideas that you do.

The Numbers

Statistics documenting transgender people's experience of sexual violence indicate shockingly high levels of sexual abuse and assault. One in two transgender individuals are sexually abused or assaulted at some point in their lives.1 Some reports estimate that transgender survivors may experience rates of sexual assault up to 66 percent, often coupled with physical assaults or abuse.2 This indicates that the majority of transgender individuals are living with the aftermath of trauma and the fear of possible repeat victimization.
 

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I have asked this question and still haven't had an answer:

If the definition of a woman isn't adult human female, then what is it? Can anyone give me an alternative definition of woman?
Already provided you with one. You ignored it.
 

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Amazing! Most transgendered people don't believe that being a man or woman is a choice either. But I find it interesting that you avoided the whole point of people defining what males should be as well.



75% of all rapes also occur by someone known to the victim. So a strange male is actually less of a threat. Are you dismissing the threat of rape by other women on women, or of man on man rape, or even woman on man rape? I thought that even one rape was one rape too many. Also how would a woman know if a post-op trans woman was in the changing room with her?




The implication of this question is that just any woman would be allowed to box against him. As I noted a featherweight wouldn't be allowed to go against him. It would have to be a woman who was on equal footing with him/her. That's how boxing works now. Why would it be any different if women were included with men?



So the lesbian cis female scoping out other women is alright but the pre-op transwoman is somehow a threat, BUT also, the post op trans woman is not a threat.



Because some people have hangups. Personally, if it's a private business, they should decide. There are many places in the world where men and women co-exist in changing and bathing rooms with no problem. The Isreali military comes to mind.



What is it that is often said with regards to transgenders? Ah yes, that is the exception that proves the rule. First, off what level of prison was that? If it's not one for violent women offenders, then why was a violent offender sent there? If you had a woman who had raped other women would you still send her there? And quite honestly, I find it doubtful (which is why I doubt that White was sent to the correct facility) that a bunch of women who are in for murder and assault and such would not gang up on a rapist as much as men will gang up on a pedophile in a men's prison.
For transgender people who suffer from dysphoria then they may not see it as a choice, although there are transwomen who recognise that they are not literally women and ditto for transmen.

For transgender people who don't suffer from dysphoria, then what makes them a woman or man if not a choice they make? Oh wait a minute, do you think that you have to have dysphoria to be transgender? That's an outdated view, check out Stonewall's definition of transgender. No dysphoria required at all.

Most men aren't rapists but try walking behind a woman down a dark street and she how she reacts. In UK law rape requires a penis so can only be carried out by males.

What the hell do you think would happen if a male heavyweight boxer fought a female heavyweight boxer?? You seriously think that's an equal fight? Dear God.

The prison Karen White was sent to was a closed category prison. Not the top level of high security but it will house violent prisoners who are not a major escape risk. Rose West, the serial killer spent time there.
 

maquiscat

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For transgender people who suffer from dysphoria then they may not see it as a choice, although there are transwomen who recognise that they are not literally women and ditto for transmen.

For transgender people who don't suffer from dysphoria, then what makes them a woman or man if not a choice they make? Oh wait a minute, do you think that you have to have dysphoria to be transgender? That's an outdated view, check out Stonewall's definition of transgender. No dysphoria required at all.
That is putting words into my mouth. Nothing I have wrote has actually touched upon GD. In fact GD is not limited to transgenders. That said, trans people like Rose of Dawn, are more than likely working off the older definitions of the words, and by that standard, I can agree that she is not a woman. But that standard is quickly fading. Transgender people do not have a choice in being who and what they are. It doesn't mean that they will get GD, but it doesn't change the fact that they are transgendered. They may not even feel a need to do any kind of transitioning. What they do is a choice. Being transgendered is not a choice. But with that also comes discovery and self truth. As noted GD does not only stem from transgenderism, so if GD is present, the individual needs to ensure what the source is. Furthermore, if they are indeed transgendered, they have to determine what their gender actually is. Maybe they are more gender fluid, not really a man or a woman, but some blend of each. That also could be part of Rose's assertion that she is not a woman.

Most men aren't rapists but try walking behind a woman down a dark street and she how she reacts.
On a dark street, she won't know that the person following her is a man. She might presume so, but I could set a larger build woman to follow the "victim" and the victim would make the same conclusion. Perception is separate from reality. Which is why I make the point of the female on female rapist that would still be allowed in the women's changing room.

In UK law rape requires a penis so can only be carried out by males.
Which only illustrates the difference between the actual definition and legal definitions.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/rape said:
rape
noun
1. unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim.
2. statutory rape.
3. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
Rape is not limited to what the law says. The legal definition only defines what the law will recognize. It can limit the scope such as the UK rape law, or expand the scope such as many US incest laws do in making legal ties with no blood connection as a basis for incest legally.

What the hell do you think would happen if a male heavyweight boxer fought a female heavyweight boxer?? You seriously think that's an equal fight? Dear God.
Heavyweight for men is 200#+ while for women it's 175#+. Basically what you are claiming is that there is no women who can match men for the weight class. For my example, I am first going to acknowledge the skill of boxing. A skilled welterweight boxer of 10 years experience, can easily whoop a heavyweight qualified non boxer anyday. So for this example, since we are talking about men vs women in boxing, we have to make an assumption of equal skill, or as equal as it ever gets in a ring. I would say that Nataliya Kuznetsova, assuming equal skill in boxing, would be more than a match for Anthony Joshua. I am not making any claims that there would be a large number of women who could reach to that standard, but if Nataliya wanted to box against men, I have no doubt that she could hold her own, skill level accounted for.

The prison Karen White was sent to was a closed category prison. Not the top level of high security but it will house violent prisoners who are not a major escape risk. Rose West, the serial killer spent time there.
Still sounds like White was sent to the wrong prison for the level of crimes committed. But again, this doesn't prove the rule, only notes the exception. Maybe they need to send White to an American high security women's prison, and see how long he lasts when they find out his/her crime. And there is still the question of do you send a woman on woman rapist (Do you think the act would be any less traumatic because the law doesn't recognize it as rape? But I assume that it would be at least sexual assault, right?) to a woman's prison, for her to do to the other inmates what White did?
 

maquiscat

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A trans female is not a male and never was a male, despite her external genitalia.
This is really going to depend upon how the words and their use pan out. Right now, I'm seeing male/female referring more to the physical born with body, with man/woman dealing with the gender. We are also seeing sex as referring to the physical born with body and gender being the self. A trans woman is sexually a male, or has a male sex, even while having a female or woman gender. And of course this takes us right back to what is the biological determination of the sex; genitals, Chromosones or Genes? But even with the possible exceptions out there, the assumption is good that the three match up, with no stipulation that the gender will.

Do not get me wrong. I am by no means claiming that the born body being male means that the self was never a girl/woman, or female if that term ends up applying to gender. Reality will be, genetic exceptions noted, that a trans woman will be sex: male and gender: female/woman. If the argument is going to be made that the sex is separate from the gender, then it can't be argued otherwise.
 

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Transwomen are not women. Transwomen are men who dress like women and sometimes have surgery to make them look more like women.

Woman = adult human female
Female = of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

Transwomen will always have XY genes and will never produce female gametes, hence they are male and thus men.

But why not just go about as though they are if it makes them happy? Why do many radfems object to the idea? Because what we have is a situation where men (the historically oppressive sex) are telling women (the historically oppressed sex) that the word woman is being redefined to allow men access to that class and appropriate their 'culture'. Imagine white people telling black people that not only can white people can identify as black, but white people who do so are just as black as they are and their black culture now also belongs to white people who identify as black. It is men telling women that they (men) are going to define what a woman is, not women. It is fundamentally sexist.

From a practical point, it raises issues: men using women's toilets and changing rooms will make many women uncomfortable. Most transwomen don't go through full surgery, so women are having to get undressed in front of strange men with penises, who will also be undressed. Transwomen in sport is another area where there is an inherent disadvantage for women, and of course, transwomen being appointed to women advocacy roles and getting scholarships aimed at encouraging women into certain industries.

Women who object to their safe spaces being opened up to men, or object to men dictating to them what it is to be a woman, are silenced, doxxed, and called TERFs (trans exclusionary radical feminist). But they're not trans exclusionary, as they have no objection to transmen (females) using women's facilities and culture. What they are are MERFs (male exclusionary radical feminists) which is what they should be - males should be excluded from women's changing rooms, women's sports, and women's career schemes.
Why are you looking at peoples’ dicks in the restroom?
 

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This is really going to depend upon how the words and their use pan out. Right now, I'm seeing male/female referring more to the physical born with body, with man/woman dealing with the gender. We are also seeing sex as referring to the physical born with body and gender being the self. A trans woman is sexually a male, or has a male sex, even while having a female or woman gender. And of course this takes us right back to what is the biological determination of the sex; genitals, Chromosones or Genes? But even with the possible exceptions out there, the assumption is good that the three match up, with no stipulation that the gender will.

Do not get me wrong. I am by no means claiming that the born body being male means that the self was never a girl/woman, or female if that term ends up applying to gender. Reality will be, genetic exceptions noted, that a trans woman will be sex: male and gender: female/woman. If the argument is going to be made that the sex is separate from the gender, then it can't be argued otherwise.
The brain controls the body so the psychological gender identity is superior to the physical body when making an accurate gender determination. Obviously that is not possible at birth, but most people are CIS, so this is not an issue, but t for the 2%+/- who are trans or non-binary have to wait until they are 5 years old to even a teen for many people before they start to have any feelings of gender incongruency or dysphoria.

I was taught in human sexuality that sex and gender are different. Gender, either biological or psychological is the male or femaleness of the person and sex is an act of mating or intimacy. Whether that still holds true more than 25 + years later is for someone who has a major in the field to determine.



Why are you looking at peoples’ dicks in the restroom?
That is the $20,000 question for all people who are opposed to trans women using the bathroom of their identity. That and the fact that if transmen use the female bathroom then perverts won't even have to dress in drag to use that bathroom to harass women and girls, but most of them don't understand that trans guys exist.
 
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george48

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So women now means anything you want it to? I fully understand a trans Woman or Mans right to identify and i support that...But what sense does it make to reidentify what is set by biology in science for years? Given that multicelular organism such as ours (others may differ) reproduce based on two genders...Ergo biologically set mechanisms of reproduction? Is biology meaningless? That is how primates like ourselves reproduce
..Male and female....Again...füll representation to transgender people...just...biology is also a thing...I knoe this was kinda brief and maybe Not sufficiant in explanation...
 

Lisa

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So women now means anything you want it to? I fully understand a trans Woman or Mans right to identify and i support that...But what sense does it make to reidentify what is set by biology in science for years? Given that multicellular organisms such as ours (others may differ) reproduce based on two genders...Ergo biologically set mechanisms of reproduction? Is biology meaningless? That is how primates like ourselves reproduce
..Male and female....Again...füll representation to transgender people...just...biology is also a thing...I know this was kinda brief and maybe Not sufficient in explanation...
The more we learn about biology and psychology then we have to adapt and make the details accurate to reflect that new knowledge. Trans people would love to be able to reproduce in their gender identity and that may be possible in the next few decades, so the idea that trans people exist is the start of the end of the human race is both laughably wrong and medically inaccurate.

What are you afraid of happening if the old ideas that a person gender is determined by external genitalia or DNA/chromosomes are no longer used because they aren't entirely accurate? Whether a person is female, male or maybe something in between is determined by them and their own gender identity, just as our sexual orientation can be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or maybe asexual.
 

george48

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The more we learn about biology and psychology then we have to adapt and make the details accurate to reflect that new knowledge. Trans people would love to be able to reproduce in their gender identity and that may be possible in the next few decades, so the idea that trans people exist is the start of the end of the human race is both laughably wrong and medically inaccurate.

What are you afraid of happening if the old ideas that a person gender is determined by external genitalia or DNA/chromosomes are no longer used because they aren't entirely accurate? Whether a person is female, male or maybe something in between is determined by them and their own gender identity, just as our sexual orientation can be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or maybe asexual.
Thoughtfull response...Thank you for that...Honestly quite rare these days...this is exactley why i love (sometimes) sites like this one... So again...Thank you!
Objection: Unfortunately is not that easy to change your gender...Men have on average 40 percent more upper body strengh...women on average are more agreeable than men (again I say this fully aware that some women are way differnt and less agreesble than a lot of men hence I despise the far right) I am merely drwaing attention to the obvious differences MOST not all men and women have...Thus I really don't think trans ideology as a sense of interchangeabillity makes any sense...Bur I would really like to hear from you
 

Lisa

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Thoughtfull response...Thank you for that...Honestly quite rare these days...this is exactley why i love (sometimes) sites like this one... So again...Thank you!
Objection: Unfortunately is not that easy to change your gender...Men have on average 40 percent more upper body strengh...women on average are more agreeable than men (again I say this fully aware that some women are way differnt and less agreesble than a lot of men hence I despise the far right) I am merely drwaing attention to the obvious differences MOST not all men and women have...Thus I really don't think trans ideology as a sense of interchangeability makes any sense...Bur I would really like to hear from you
I'm not sure what trans ideology is because I've never heard that term. Trans females would love to be able to change their DNA because they try very hard to disguise a wide male shoulder, wider waist, and male rib cage. Trans men would love to be able to enlarge their chest and c shoulders and hide their natal female hips.

The high does of blockers and the hormones get rid of most of the male strength and adds a lot of fat in female areas, and then the hormone levels drop to the female level permanently after surgery when the testes are removed,.
The trans male surgery is far less evolved because it is much more difficult to make a functional penis than it is to create a vagina. Many trans guys don't get bottom surgery but only remove the breasts and ovaries to stop their period.
 

maquiscat

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The brain controls the body so the psychological gender identity is superior to the physical body when making an accurate gender determination. Obviously that is not possible at birth, but most people are CIS, so this is not an issue, but t for the 2%+/- who are trans or non-binary have to wait until they are 5 years old to even a teen for many people before they start to have any feelings of gender incongruency or dysphoria.

I was taught in human sexuality that sex and gender are different. Gender, either biological or psychological is the male or femaleness of the person and sex is an act of mating or intimacy. Whether that still holds true more than 25 + years later is for someone who has a major in the field to determine.
As I understand it, sex was the initial word used, but gender replaced it when the prude portion of the population didn't like that it also meant the physical act. Gender had and has multiple applications including language where inanimate objects could be masculine or feminine. But this was still when we didn't have as much data to show the separation of the self and the body. And that is one of the main reasons that we are going to have to reach some point where we decide what words describe the body and what words describe the self. Whether male and man will be the same or not.
 

maquiscat

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So women now means anything you want it to? I fully understand a trans Woman or Mans right to identify and i support that...But what sense does it make to reidentify what is set by biology in science for years? Given that multicelular organism such as ours (others may differ) reproduce based on two genders...Ergo biologically set mechanisms of reproduction? Is biology meaningless? That is how primates like ourselves reproduce
..Male and female....Again...füll representation to transgender people...just...biology is also a thing...I knoe this was kinda brief and maybe Not sufficiant in explanation...
No one is really trying to rewrite biology as far as reproduction goes. The meaningfulness of biology is dependent upon context. But the mechanical portion dealing with reproduction has nothing to do with the self. And the self is where transgenders come into play.
 

maquiscat

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Thoughtfull response...Thank you for that...Honestly quite rare these days...this is exactley why i love (sometimes) sites like this one... So again...Thank you!
Objection: Unfortunately is not that easy to change your gender...Men have on average 40 percent more upper body strengh...women on average are more agreeable than men (again I say this fully aware that some women are way differnt and less agreesble than a lot of men hence I despise the far right) I am merely drwaing attention to the obvious differences MOST not all men and women have...Thus I really don't think trans ideology as a sense of interchangeabillity makes any sense...Bur I would really like to hear from you
You're referring to the body, which again, doesn't relate automatically to the self. Even with a full SRS, no one is denying that the body is originally male or female (intersex conditions aside). The current language is drifting towards sex being the body and gender being the self. Transgenders are not changing their genders, but are recognizing that their gender doesn't conform to their sex, or physical body, in the same manner that the majority has their sex and gender match.
 

george48

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I'm not sure what trans ideology is because I've never heard that term. Trans females would love to be able to change their DNA because they try very hard to disguise a wide male shoulder, wider waist, and male rib cage. Trans men would love to be able to enlarge their chest and c shoulders and hide their natal female hips.

The high does of blockers and the hormones get rid of most of the male strength and adds a lot of fat in female areas, and then the hormone levels drop to the female level permanently after surgery when the testes are removed,.
The trans male surgery is far less evolved because it is much more difficult to make a functional penis than it is to create a vagina. Many trans guys don't get bottom surgery but only remove the breasts and ovaries to stop their period.
Thank you again for the thoughtfull reply...my Objection: Yes I am in favour of trans peoples right to change their Identification ..
And i am sure lots of folks do wanna change....I wish the best....If you take me at my word or you Don't...But ok....As much as I believe trans people have all Rights everybody els does...I still believe in Science.... Hormon Blockers are irreversibel changes to you as a Life...There are lots of studies
 

Lisa

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Thank you again for the thoughtfull reply...my Objection: Yes I am in favour of trans peoples right to change their Identification ..
And i am sure lots of folks do wanna change....I wish the best....If you take me at my word or you Don't...But ok....As much as I believe trans people have all Rights everybody els does...I still believe in Science.... Hormon Blockers are irreversibel changes to you as a Life...There are lots of studies
Hormone blockers are only given for a few months to 2 years with estrogen, and then they have gender surgery.
 
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