Transwomen are not women and why radfems object to the idea

[maquiscat]

If dictionaries are wrong, then please provide us with what you think the correct definition is.* What is a woman if not an adult human female?

* saying a woman is anyone who identifies as one is not a suitable definition; that's like defining an elephant as any animal that is an elephant.

My previous post on showing the current dictionary correct, and you providing the alternative definition aside, definitions change and/or are added to, not to mention have had multiple definitions to begin with. The word gay did not originally mean homosexual, nor did queer, or faggot (q and f respectively if the filter blanks them out. I'm sure you're smart enough to know which words I am referring to.) Yet here they are, in today's world, with new, more commonly used definitions. Language evolves and changes, simple basic fact of linguistics.

 

[maquiscat]

It's scary how many people seek to change reality to suit their emotional needs and preferences.

The argument works both ways. Transphobic people seek to change the reality of transgenderism to suit their emotional needs and preferences.

 

[maquiscat]

Your gender is a physical attribute Lisa.

That was indeed the medical thought before more relatively recent medical knowledge came to light as has been happening over the last several decades and more.

medical myths thought true - Google Search

www.google.com

We are constantly learning and new learning can show how we initially misunderstood something due to that lack of knowledge. Very similar to the lack of knowledge that initially led us to believe that the sun moved around the earth, instead of the other way around.

 

[maquiscat]

The physical part is non-negotiable unless you're changing the meaning of words. Doing what you can to look like the other gender does not actually make you that gender.

Which physical part? The genitals? The Y chromosome (presence or lack thereof)? The SRY gene (presence or lack thereof)?

 

[maquiscat]

Most of the people in the trans community are not people with some extremely rare genetic mutation. The physical part of gender is non-negotiable unless you are changing the meaning of the word.

Do please provide the studies that proved that most of the people in the trans community are not genetic rarities. This would also include human chimeras from m/f fraternal twins, as well as XY individuals who had genes not activate properly and were born with female external genitalia. There are also conditions where an XX individual will develop male external genitalia.

 

[maquiscat]

Medical science has now discovered information that transgendered is genetic. I posted that evidence in reply #13.

I strongly suspect that such as in that article is not the only path to being transgendered. How many "women" with AIS have felt as if they were transgendered? How frequent is human chimeraism actually, since we haven't really done much study on such and even less testing? And given that how many come from m/f fraternal twin sets?

 

[maquiscat]

I have yet to encounter a trans person that's not a complete ****ing nutcase.

"I have yet to knowingly encounter a trans person that's not a complete ****ing nutcase."

Fixed that for you. You have most likely encountered a trans person without knowing it.

 

[Lisa]

I strongly suspect that such as in that article is not the only path to being transgendered. How many "women" with AIS have felt as if they were transgendered? How frequent is human chimeraism actually, since we haven't really done much study on such and even less testing? And given that how many come from m/f fraternal twin sets?

AIS a a different situation.

I was surprised once to learn of an identical twins once had a MTF trans female. Transgender seems to be linked with a hormonal receptor disorder between the 10-14 th week of gestation, so that must have occurred after the fertilized egg had split into two.

 

[maquiscat]

There are only men (males xy) and women (females xx). There are no other categories than those two. And neither one can "change/transform" to the other.

False. There are also various intersexed conditions.

 

[maquiscat]

AIS a a different situation.

Is it though? What actually is transgendered? Especially when we have three potential factors to determine sex; genitals, presence or lack of the Y chromosome, and the presence or lack of the SRY gene. If the SRY gene is missing from the Y chromosome are they still male? If it is present on one of the X chromosomes of an XX person, are they now male? If an AIS person is never diagnosed with AIS (which can and has happened), and they end up with a male gender would they not be considered transgendered? The same goes for any intersexed condition. I remember reading somewhere that most people are not discovered to be intersexed until an autopsy is done, leading to the thought that many more may never be discovered.

I was surprised once to learn of an identical twins once had a MTF trans female. Transgender seems to be linked with a hormonal receptor disorder between the 10-14 th week of gestation, so that must have occurred after the fertilized egg had split into two.

BLOCKING PUBERTY in TRANSGENDER YOUTH - Endocrine News

For as long as his parents could remember, 12-year-old Jack acted “female.” He favored Barbies over Transformers, often wore his sister’s underpants, and refused to use urinals. Similarly, the mother of 14-year-old Janice cannot remember a time when her daughter did not dress...

endocrinenews.endocrine.org

" Diamond says transgenderism is in a person’s genes. In his research on transexuality in twins, he has found that among identical twins, if one transitions, the other does also in about 40 percent of the cases. With fraternal twins, this usually does not happen—only 4 percent of these twins do. "

Found that looking up something else. But while I do think that transgender is genetic, I don't think it is any single factor. But that does bring us back to exactly what is transgendered, and what are the starting requirements? For example, would a human chimera from a m/f fraternal twin set not be a transgendered since they would have both male and female DNA in them?

 

[Casper]

So the question comes up for the OP, we are animals, plain and simple, as such are animals the gender they are born with at all times?

 

[maquiscat]

So the question comes up for the OP, we are animals, plain and simple, as such are animals the gender they are born with at all times?

Not the OP, but....

How would we know? Since gender is dependent upon self identification, and we don't have the means to communicate with animals, nor can determine if they actually have that level of self awareness, it's very hard to separate out sexual orientation from gender identity.

 

[Casper]

Not the OP, but....

How would we know? Since gender is dependent upon self identification, and we don't have the means to communicate with animals, nor can determine if they actually have that level of self awareness, it's very hard to separate out sexual orientation from gender identity.

How do we know? How about that some animals can actually Change Gender. Seems pretty clear the we don't actually know as much as we think we do. Step One: take Emotion out of the equation, that helps clear up a lot and provide clearer vision.

 

[maquiscat]

How do we know? How about that some animals can actually Change Gender. Seems pretty clear the we don't actually know as much as we think we do. Step One: take Emotion out of the equation, that helps clear up a lot and provide clearer vision.

They change sex, but do they change gender? Do they even have gender in the way we are applying to humans?

 

[Casper]

They change sex, but do they change gender? Do they even have gender in the way we are applying to humans?

Yes, they do. Not fully physically, but humans and gender are more than that point.

 

[Court Jester]

False. There are also various intersexed conditions.

Only in unicorns.

 

[maquiscat]

Yes, they do. Not fully physically, but humans and gender are more than that point.

SO how do you show that their mental gender matches or doesn't match their physical sex?

 

[Lisa]

Only in unicorns.

What is it about transgendered people existing that seems to bother you so much because if you weren't bothered you wouldn't be so opposed to them or even deny their existence? Did you have a friend that came out as trans, or a family member or maybe you have transgendered feelings that you are trying to deny......

 

[maquiscat]

Only in unicorns.

Reality says otherwise

Definition of INTERSEXUALITY

the condition (such as that occurring in congenital adrenal hyperplasia or androgen insensitivity syndrome) of either having both male and female gonadal tissue in one individual or of having the gonads of one sex and external genitalia that is of the other sex or is… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Differences of sex development: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

Differences of sex development (DSD) is a group of conditions in which there is a discrepancy between the external (outside) genitals (penis, scrotum, vulva, labia) and the internal (inside) genitals (testes,

medlineplus.gov

https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/intersex.pdf

 

[Court Jester]

Reality says otherwise

Definition of INTERSEXUALITY

the condition (such as that occurring in congenital adrenal hyperplasia or androgen insensitivity syndrome) of either having both male and female gonadal tissue in one individual or of having the gonads of one sex and external genitalia that is of the other sex or is… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Differences of sex development: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

Differences of sex development (DSD) is a group of conditions in which there is a discrepancy between the external (outside) genitals (penis, scrotum, vulva, labia) and the internal (inside) genitals (testes,

medlineplus.gov

https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/intersex.pdf

Not sure why you are bringing up intersexed anyway. Intersexed people are either males or females (xy / xx). How does that relate to people claiming to be transsexuals?

Occasionally people are born with tails. That doesn't mean they are monkeys.

 

[maquiscat]

Not sure why you are bringing up intersexed anyway. Intersexed people are either males or females (xy / xx). How does that relate to people claiming to be transsexuals?

Occasionally people are born with tails. That doesn't mean they are monkeys.

because intersexed conditions include those that cause a person to have a genital presentation of one sex with the genetics of the other. When a person is XX and has a penis, are they male or female?

I asked before and got no answer. Which is the deciding factor on male or female? Genitals, presence or lack of the Y chromosome, or the presence or lack of the SRY gene?

 

[Court Jester]

because intersexed conditions include those that cause a person to have a genital presentation of one sex with the genetics of the other. When a person is XX and has a penis, are they male or female?

If they xx then they are female. Which is why I said that a person could be born with a tail but that doesn't make them a monkey. A large clitoris is not the same thing as a small penis.

I asked before and got no answer. Which is the deciding factor on male or female? Genitals, presence or lack of the Y chromosome, or the presence or lack of the SRY gene?

Biological males have the xy sex chromosome and biological females have the xx sex chromosome.

 

[Aristaeus]

There is nothing to claim victory about. You made a big stink about something that is not your business and affects you not in the slightest, because you had to bellow your bigotry.

It's not really anything that a fight can be centered on. I'm just here in the same manner that people used to go to sideshows.

How on earth do you know if it doesn't effect me?

My previous post on showing the current dictionary correct, and you providing the alternative definition aside, definitions change and/or are added to, not to mention have had multiple definitions to begin with. The word gay did not originally mean homosexual, nor did queer, or faggot (q and f respectively if the filter blanks them out. I'm sure you're smart enough to know which words I am referring to.) Yet here they are, in today's world, with new, more commonly used definitions. Language evolves and changes, simple basic fact of linguistics.

Again, defining a woman as a person who identifies as a woman doesn't actually resolve the definition. What are the identifiable characteristics of a woman?

If the police find the murdered body of an unidentified person, how do you they know if it's a man or woman if it's not based on biological attributes? They can't ask the deceased person, so how do they know? That must really hinder their investigation.

 

[Aristaeus]

The argument works both ways. Transphobic people seek to change the reality of transgenderism to suit their emotional needs and preferences.

If being a woman is not based on female attributes, but what a person (male or female) feels on the inside, then it follows that we can never know if someone is a man or woman unless they tell us.

It renders those words meaningless.

 

[maquiscat]

Again, defining a woman as a person who identifies as a woman doesn't actually resolve the definition. What are the identifiable characteristics of a woman?

If the police find the murdered body of an unidentified person, how do you they know if it's a man or woman if it's not based on biological attributes? They can't ask the deceased person, so how do they know? That must really hinder their investigation.

I am not unsympathetic to your confusion. We are dealing with a transition in language here. For a long time the terms "male" and "man" (and their counterparts) were used synonymously. And right now at least, in casual language they still can be to a point. In your example, they would know that it was a female, but not a man or woman. And really for that matter, until and unless DNA comes back, they will go solely upon the body. So while the DNA of the unidentified might be XX, if there is a penis showing, they will assume male. Furthermore, given odds and despite what some of the more radical advocates say, it would not be wrong to assume that an XY person with no genital surgery is a man as well as male. It's rather like assuming that a person is right handed. The assumption will be correct the vast majority of the time, but should be corrected once other evidence arises.