This Week in Transgender: He didn't want to use the ladies room, thank goodness

[roguenuke]

Most states if you are male then if you enter the women's bathroom or locker room you can be asked to leave.
If you don't then the cops could be called to make you leave.

Depends on where you are. Most states, including even NC, if it is in a privately owned business, they can't. That is up to the business owner. It can't be just any old person that asks you to leave that you must comply with.

 

[maquiscat]

Claiming simply that you "destroyed" something doesn't make it so, though that may play well among a subset of people on here. But it doesn't cut it with me. You'll have to do better than that. And I trust other people can judge for themselves, anyway, if they go through the material in those links.

Still, the fact that you keep saying, "Oh, those sex crimes really weren't all that bad," is one of the reasons I stopped responding to you earlier. That, and the stuff about kids.

I think this is you best pot calling the kettle black post to date. Can I get a second?

 

[maquiscat]

I don't support ANY bans. However, in your two examples above, the adults should be of the same sex as the children. And they better be very careful they are not around them alone when they are naked. This might not apply in pre-school situations, of course.

And, by the way, if you can't keep it civil, don't bother expecting any more replies from me.

That post was extremely civil. You are very insistent on trying to deflect to others when your arguments fail.

 

[maquiscat]

In Japan, families take baths together. At least some bathhouses there are unisex completely.

OnsenExpress: Mixed Bathing

I brought up that point as well as other current and historical examples. For some reason, she dismisses fact for rarity

 

[roguenuke]

Claiming simply that you "destroyed" something doesn't make it so, though that may play well among a subset of people on here. But it doesn't cut it with me. You'll have to do better than that. And I trust other people can judge for themselves, anyway, if they go through the material in those links.

Still, the fact that you keep saying, "Oh, those sex crimes really weren't all that bad," is one of the reasons I stopped responding to you earlier. That, and the stuff about kids.

You mean when they go to the links and find a blog and a youtube video which have many stories that have very few cases of the person actually attacking a woman in a women's only facility? And the biggest example isn't even included in the blog.

So the last 14 of those "examples" from the blog are all simply transgender women who sometime during their life committed a crime against someone else, generally sexual or violent in nature, but also generally in a more private or at least not gender segregated place. The first 11 all occur in a restroom. However, the vast majority are cases of voyeurism, and in one case simply someone masturbating into women's clothing in a store fitting room (which isn't even provided as to which fitting room the person was in). Several of these cases include people who are not really identified as transgender. One is a crazy, homeless guy who attacked a child in a gas station bathroom (unidentified as whether it was multistalled or single, but most are single stalls). It was included only because the guy was wearing women's underwear, and only women's underwear.

 

[Omgitsme]

Dont' give up, it's not people like her you need to sway, it's the people reading who MIGHT think she maybe has a point.

Honestly ive just lost all patience with people like her after dealing with Calamity in other threads and everyone who brings up that one swedish study like it somehow proves their point even though if you actually understand it then it clearly doesnt.

 

[Omgitsme]

Okay, fine! Please link to ANY articles about specific incidents inside normally sex-segregated facilities where these "other people" physically assaulted, raped, video-taped etc. etc. etc. trans people.

When A Transgender Person Uses A Public Bathroom, Who Is At Risk? : NPR

"About 70 percent of the sample reported experiencing being denied access to restrooms, being harassed while using restrooms and even experiencing some forms of physical assault," says Herman.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...d-Restrooms-and-Minority-Stress-June-2013.pdf

Thats the study they are referencing. Basically 58% of MTFs in that study experienced verbal harassment and 58% of FTMs experienced verbal harassment. And 14% of MTFs were physically assaulted and 5% of FTMs were physically assaulted.

That was literally the first link when I googled transgender assaulted in bathroom.

 

[Renae]

Honestly ive just lost all patience with people like her after dealing with Calamity in other threads and everyone who brings up that one swedish study like it somehow proves their point even though if you actually understand it then it clearly doesnt.

Or the people that bring up what's his nuts from Hopkins, I forget his name at the moment... the one that said GRS isn't effective, as of 1980.

 

[Omgitsme]

Or the people that bring up what's his nuts from Hopkins, I forget his name at the moment... the one that said GRS isn't effective, as of 1980.

Oh yeah I remember him. Hes one guy who disagrees with the majority of his peers and they just cling on to him and ignore the mountain of studies and experts that show him to be wrong.

 

[Renae]

Oh yeah I remember him. Hes one guy who disagrees with the majority of his peers and they just cling on to him and ignore the mountain of studies and experts that show him to be wrong.

yep, sadly too many conservatives latch on to his opinion as the WORD. It's uphill battle against ignorance. But some do come around.

 

[Jane]

Most states if you are male then if you enter the women's bathroom or locker room you can be asked to leave.
If you don't then the cops could be called to make you leave.

Yes, that is a point I have been trying to make and it keeps going over the intelligentsia's heads here. De facto bathroom usage - not law!! - previously required men to use men's facilities; women to use women's. With certain common-sense exceptions. Hence females didn't have to ask themselves: "does that linebacker mean me harm? do I just have to keep my mouth shut until he grabs someone or I see his video camera pointed at my child?" Nowadays, in areas with "gender expression" protection in law, if she were to ask this question before he did something like that, she would not only be accused of bigotry; she might be accused of discrimination, particularly if she were the owner or manager of the facility.

 

[Jane]

In Japan, families take baths together. At least some bathhouses there are unisex completely.

OnsenExpress: Mixed Bathing

Hahaha. You got me (I think - I'm not gonna look at your link). You know and everyone else here (I THINK) knows that I have pedantically referred to "stranger men" showering/perving on/videotaping/murdering/etc/etc in regard to this subject. Sigh. I guess I'll have to go back to using that tedious construction. Because, you know, otherwise some casual reader here will think I'm saying that what we did at home around our blood relations is TOTALLY the same as having some old dude want to get naked with teenage girls in a spa, for instance.

By the way, do you remember in another thread where a certain poster tried to claim that in countries like Korea, stranger males and females actually do bathe together naked in public. Hahahaha. No.

What is it with this Asian thing anyway?

Maybe you would like to point out where we have some nudist beaches or camps that we can choose to go to. Again, comparing this to the bathroom and shower situation is weird.

 

[Jane]

When A Transgender Person Uses A Public Bathroom, Who Is At Risk? : NPR

"About 70 percent of the sample reported experiencing being denied access to restrooms, being harassed while using restrooms and even experiencing some forms of physical assault," says Herman.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...d-Restrooms-and-Minority-Stress-June-2013.pdf

Thats the study they are referencing. Basically 58% of MTFs in that study experienced verbal harassment and 58% of FTMs experienced verbal harassment. And 14% of MTFs were physically assaulted and 5% of FTMs were physically assaulted.

That was literally the first link when I googled transgender assaulted in bathroom.

Oh my god. I'm not trying to give you a hard time personally. Really not. But the methodology of that "study" - at first glance, anyway - looks extremely flawed and simply not what you could say was "scientific." It was an opt-in survey, where anyone could respond without scrutiny of who they were. AND THEY OFFERED THE CHANCE OF CASH REWARDS for participating!! Holy ****!

Nevertheless, thank you. I shall look at that later.

Edit: My request still stands. And what you claim piques my interest even further. How could it be possible for there to be so many instances of harassment or violence against trans people at the bathroom without there being many actual stories in the popular press about these actual events? I see multiple trans positive stories almost daily in the liberal publications I read. It is a mystery to me.

 

[Jane]

This is not a "transvestic disorder." The guy is probably schizophrenic or experiencing some sort of psychotic break. Putting on women's clothing in the middle of some type of episode most likely has nothing to do with his sexuality, identity or mental illness.

That is a very interesting medical opinion. So you're saying this man's sexually arousing cross-dressing [changed outfits 3 times lol] and his exhibitionistic and masturbatory behavior is due to some schizophrenia spectrum or other psychotic disorder? On the other hand you speculate that it has "nothing to do" with such a psychiatric disorder ("mental illness"), or to his identity! It's hard to follow that line of thinking (AKA having it both ways). I'm willing to admit we can't diagnose this man via this news article. It will be interesting to see what his legal practioner claims at his first hearing. That may clear matters up somewhat. I'll keep you informed.

This is nothing more than a desperate snarl by those who are losing the civil rights debate. Sad!

Please specify to what civil rights you are referring. Name them, please. I'm assuming you can point to where in the Constitution (Bill of Rights?) these are guaranteed, but that really isn't necessary at this point.

For instance, do you think a civil right exists in our founding documents which would allow adult stranger males to access places where girls disrobe and shower? Can you make that case?

More simply, perhaps, can you point out what civil rights trans people do not have compared to every other citizen?

 

[sangha]

That is a very interesting medical opinion. So you're saying this man's sexually arousing cross-dressing [changed outfits 3 times lol] and his exhibitionistic and masturbatory behavior is due to some schizophrenia spectrum or other psychotic disorder?

Please quote where Visbek said his cross-dressing was "due to some schizophrenia spectrum or other psychotic disorder"

On the other hand you speculate that it has "nothing to do" with such a psychiatric disorder ("mental illness"), or to his identity! It's hard to follow that line of thinking

Well, when you make up crap about what other people said, it's no wonder you can't keep up.

 

[roguenuke]

Hahaha. You got me (I think - I'm not gonna look at your link). You know and everyone else here (I THINK) knows that I have pedantically referred to "stranger men" showering/perving on/videotaping/murdering/etc/etc in regard to this subject. Sigh. I guess I'll have to go back to using that tedious construction. Because, you know, otherwise some casual reader here will think I'm saying that what we did at home around our blood relations is TOTALLY the same as having some old dude want to get naked with teenage girls in a spa, for instance.

By the way, do you remember in another thread where a certain poster tried to claim that in countries like Korea, stranger males and females actually do bathe together naked in public. Hahahaha. No.

What is it with this Asian thing anyway?

Maybe you would like to point out where we have some nudist beaches or camps that we can choose to go to. Again, comparing this to the bathroom and shower situation is weird.

Maybe you should have read the link. You would have seen that those bathhouses don't segregate by families.

And everyone chooses to use a public restroom. You don't have to do so. You can choose a different one or to wait. The same is true for gym and even swimming pool locker rooms (for the most part). Very few such public places are not somewhere someone chooses to use. Just ask some woman who is afraid to use such places with simply other women. Do you think those women don't exist?


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[Jane]

...And everyone chooses to use a public restroom. You don't have to do so. You can choose a different one or to wait. The same is true for gym and even swimming pool locker rooms (for the most part). Very few such public places are not somewhere someone chooses to use. Just ask some woman who is afraid to use such places with simply other women. Do you think those women don't exist.

Feel free to make your case why stranger males should be able to - by personal declaration of gender non-conformity - access women's bathrooms; access high school locker rooms which girls cannot opt out of; invade showers at health clubs. This CHOICE you insist on imposing on the 99% (?) of women to stop using their own facilities is not a choice, especially when the 1% (?) have their own facilities already. You've already declared that girl children shouldn't have any problem seeing penises whether they or their parents wish that or not. That shocking attitude has set the 1% on a collision course with the vast sensible majority in this country.

 

[Renae]

Feel free to make your case why stranger males should be able to - by personal declaration of gender non-conformity - access women's bathrooms; access high school locker rooms which girls cannot opt out of; invade showers at health clubs. This CHOICE you insist on imposing on the 99% (?) of women to stop using their own facilities is not a choice, especially when the 1% (?) have their own facilities already. You've already declared that girl children shouldn't have any problem seeing penises whether they or their parents wish that or not. That shocking attitude has set the 1% on a collision course with the vast sensible majority in this country.

A transwoman isn't male so your whole ranting thread has been an epic failure.

 

[Omgitsme]

Oh my god. I'm not trying to give you a hard time personally. Really not. But the methodology of that "study" - at first glance, anyway - looks extremely flawed and simply not what you could say was "scientific." It was an opt-in survey, where anyone could respond without scrutiny of who they were. AND THEY OFFERED THE CHANCE OF CASH REWARDS for participating!! Holy ****!

Nevertheless, thank you. I shall look at that later.

Edit: My request still stands. And what you claim piques my interest even further. How could it be possible for there to be so many instances of harassment or violence against trans people at the bathroom without there being many actual stories in the popular press about these actual events? I see multiple trans positive stories almost daily in the liberal publications I read. It is a mystery to me.

That article is peer reviewed so they must not have found any problems with their methodology. Also did you see why the methodology is the way it is? Its because traditional methods of surveying populations wouldnt work because the trans community is small. Also I would like to point out this part of the article found in the limitations section.

" Since this survey limited responses to experiences in Washington, DC, rather than over the lifetime of the respondents, results may be biased toward fewer reported incidents."

And for you wanting me to find an actual event that supports what I said...

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...er-Woman-Using-Womens-Restroom-380010941.html

 

[Omgitsme]

Hey! Don't blame me. You're the one who brought up the term, "transsexual." You used it to refer to all the people who should have the right to enter any bathroom they choose. Let me refresh your memory:



So taking a look at your linked source we see:



Despite any quibble I have with this definition, do you not see how you were claiming that only those who modified their bodies would be eligible to pick what bathroom they chose? That it would exclude transvestites, and any other merely "gender nonconforming" people? The laws to which you refer (or at least the ones I've seen) do not exclude such people, of course. Christ on a crutch. This isn't rocket surgery. Just quoting back what you've said.

P.S., do you count any "true transsexuals" among your friends or colleagues? You might be very surprised what they think about this subject.

Yeah I remember that I was the one who brought up the term transsexual. I dont know why that matters. I didnt think you were the one that brought up the term transsexual. I very much knew it was me. I dont care about that at all and dont know why you think I would blame you for that or why it would matter if I did honestly. What Im blaming you for is claiming that people who say trans people should use the restroom that matches their gender identity are ok with that guy using the womens restroom. Im blaming you for using this story (which has nothing to transsexuals) as an argument against transsexuals using the restroom that matches their gender identity. Im blaming you for attempting to characterize transsexuals as somehow the same as that guy.



Why didnt you bold the entire sentence? You did notice it says "OFTEN, transsexual people alter or wish to alter their bodies through hormones, surgery, and other means ect." right?



They do exclude crossdressers and transvestites. They state that trans people can use the restroom that corresponds to their gender identity. A crossdressers gender identity is male. A transvestites gender identity is male. A MTF transsexuals gender identity is female. But you are right that wasnt rocket science. And no I wasnt claiming that only those who modify their bodies would be eligible to pick what bathroom they choose. My exact stance on this is a transsexual who has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria and is living as a man should use the mens restroom. And a transsexual who has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria and is living as a woman should use the womens restroom.



Not sure what you mean by "true" transsexuals but whatever. I am trans. I have two other friends who are trans. I know what we think about this subject. I have read articles written by trans people on this subject. I have read what other trans people think about this subject on this very forum. I guarantee that I know more about what we think about this subject then you do.

You know what? I was going to let the fact that you ignored this post go but I decided maybe I shouldnt. So after this post do you now realize that #1 crossdressers and transvestites arnt what people are talking about when they say say transgender people should use the restroom that matches their gender identity and #2 laws that allow trans people to use the restroom that matches their gender identity dont allow crossdressers and transvestites who are male to use the womens restroom?

 

[CLAX1911]

Would you like to share the ladies room with this guy? Most women would be horrified.

This isn't about a restroom, it's a parking lot.

I wouldn't want to share a parking lot with this guy.

 

[Jane]

You know what? I was going to let the fact that you ignored this post go but I decided maybe I shouldnt. So after this post do you now realize that #1 crossdressers and transvestites arnt what people are talking about when they say say transgender people should use the restroom that matches their gender identity and #2 laws that allow trans people to use the restroom that matches their gender identity dont allow crossdressers and transvestites who are male to use the womens restroom?

Hey, I am dead serious when I say that I think you just do not understand the law, whether you are trans or not. In fact, I find it shocking that what you claim is so far from the truth. This business about "what people are talking about" means **** all in law. That's why there are laws! And even then, the courts have to interpret them often.

Didn't you see the information I posted about New York City's law which makes it possible for basically ANYONE to go wherever they damn well please? It is a joke. I might go find that post and re-post the link, but what's the point? These threads are infested with shouters who either can't or won't educate themselves and just post along the lines of "LMFAO" or "Retarded." LOL

Look, I see you live in Illinois. I looked at Chicago's Human Rights Ordinance because it was easy to pull up info about it as well as about a recent amendment and of course the actual document. I didn't bother checking into Illinois law. If I weren't tired at the moment of all the male posters telling me why men should be allowed in women's facilities, I might expound on it a little. It reveals exactly what I have been saying about "gender identity" protection. And again, as I've said before in the short time I've been posting, most of the definitions in laws I've looked at don't even require a self-declaration, just how one is "perceived" BY SOMEONE ELSE can be controlling in the definition. Anyway, why don't you discover for yourself that it doesn't mean jack **** what "gender" you identify as. Cross dressers and transvestites most definitely CAN bring their dicks into women's facilities in this instance. If you are really a woman, I'd think you'd be ****ing horrified.

 

[Jane]

That article is peer reviewed so they must not have found any problems with their methodology. Also did you see why the methodology is the way it is? Its because traditional methods of surveying populations wouldnt work because the trans community is small. Also I would like to point out this part of the article found in the limitations section.

" Since this survey limited responses to experiences in Washington, DC, rather than over the lifetime of the respondents, results may be biased toward fewer reported incidents."

And for you wanting me to find an actual event that supports what I said...

Guard Charged With Assault After Confronting Transgender Woman Using Women's Restroom, Police Say | NBC4 Washington

l.)Good god! Even THEY admitted some problems with their methodology; I noted at least one of them. Saying it is "peer reviewed" is not some gold standard that absolves the study designers of its flaws.

2.) It doesn't look like you've been following along. I addressed your security guard incident in post #73 when someone else brought it up. I replied: "Yep. A security guard (a lesbian, by the way, which the article didn't mention. lol) yelled at a trans, took her by the arm and pushed her out of the grocery store. Not my idea of random physical stranger violence in a bathroom. But I imagine she has lost her job and faces an assault charge"

 

[roguenuke]

As I've asked before, does someone check to see your driver's license before you get behind the wheel? There was nothing (much) wrong with our previous system of sex-segregated facilities. It was basically the honor system. And if anyone saw a man going into a women's toilet, they could call security. Now, we have to wait until he actually commits a crime before he can be challenged.

Why do you want men to be able to access women's and girl's shower rooms, locker rooms and bathrooms?

You realize that being behind the wheel of a vehicle is much more dangerous to people than simply living, being out in public, right?

But no we don't have to wait for anyone to actually commit a crime in the restroom to call security, only be able to articulate something actually suspicious besides "I seen a man go into this restroom".

Using the handicapped stall is on the honor system too. Should we call security if someone who obviously isn't handicapped uses it?


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[Jane]

You realize that being behind the wheel of a vehicle is much more dangerous to people than simply living, being out in public, right?

The analogy is actually quite good when some idiot starts talking about every bathroom needing a vagina checker.

But no we don't have to wait for anyone to actually commit a crime in the restroom to call security, only be able to articulate something actually suspicious besides "I seen a man go into this restroom".

If more and more laws allow obvious male people into private facilities, women will be unable to protest. Period. A woman protested and complained about a "transwoman" who looked like a left tackle at her health club and lost her membership.

Using the handicapped stall is on the honor system too. Should we call security if someone who obviously isn't handicapped uses it?

Don't even know what you're getting at here. More of the same trivializing of women's concerns, I reckon. What does this scenario have to do with being assaulted or raped or being forced to being conditioned to having men in the bathroom? Don't bother to answer.