The Real Modern Heritage of the Confederate Battle Flag [W:147]

[The Mark]

Everyone seems to only want to focus on the flags association with the Confederacy itself, and a handful of racist political groups in the 1950s and 1960s.

What they tend to forget, however...

Is the 100 years of service it saw after the Civil War as a means of honoring Southern Veterans (US Veterans by Congressional decree).

It's wide usage in the Pacific Theater of War by Southern dominated Marine and Naval companies during WW2.

​

As well as in Vietnam...

What Was the Confederate Flag Doing in Cuba, Vietnam, and Iraq?

And even in the modern military...

Oh! And let's not forget about this little doozy either.

Kind of interesting how the history of the so called "traitor flag" isn't anywhere near as simple as certain fundamentally dishonest ideologues would like to claim, innit?

To me this highlights a key problem we have. A battle flag that flew over the undoubtedly brave individuals who fought for the Confederacy was embraced and became part of southern heritage.
A heritage which unquestionably includes enslavement of humans.

That undoubtedly effects many persons of color negatively when they see it flying in a place of honor.

That it was used in all the situations you list and provide pictorial record of CLEARLY shows that racism is a problem.

Even if none of the individuals in those pictures were racist, they still proudly displayed an emblem with racist history and racist connotations.


I don't have any idea how that would make me feel if I were black, but I don't think it would be a good feeling.


Maybe if some British veterans of the Revolutionary war founded a town on Bunker Hill and proudly displayed the British flag, while insisting it was part of their heritage.

But hell, even that wouldn't qualify...after all, they didn't have a history of systematically enslaving and mistreating the colonists, did they?


Plus that was so long ago no one alive gives a damn.

 

[The Mark]

It's actually all legitimate. Nice denial though.

You don't see how totally ****ed up it is that these pictures exist?

 

[Longshot Lou]

I wonder when he will get enough wisdom to learn how to eat properly or to exercise regularly?

Are you proud of your pointless cheap shot ?

Guess you couldn't retort his content.

 

[Gathomas88]

To me this highlights a key problem we have. A battle flag that flew over the undoubtedly brave individuals who fought for the Confederacy was embraced and became part of southern heritage.
A heritage which unquestionably includes enslavement of humans.

That undoubtedly effects many persons of color negatively when they see it flying in a place of honor.

That it was used in all the situations you list and provide pictorial record of CLEARLY shows that racism is a problem.

Even if none of the individuals in those pictures were racist, they still proudly displayed an emblem with racist history and racist connotations.


I don't have any idea how that would make me feel if I were black, but I don't think it would be a good feeling.


Maybe if some British veterans of the Revolutionary war founded a town on Bunker Hill and proudly displayed the British flag, while insisting it was part of their heritage.

But hell, even that wouldn't qualify...after all, they didn't have a history of systematically enslaving and mistreating the colonists, did they?


Plus that was so long ago no one alive gives a damn.

Quite frankly, they kind of need to get over it.

I'm Irish Catholic by heritage. I've got to tell you, I'm plenty offended by certain media's tendency to glorify certain Early Modern Monarchs with a history of rather horrifically mistreating both my ancestors in particular, and members of my religion in general. Take Elizabeth I, for example.

What I do not do, however, is go around demanding that such representations stop being made, simply because they offend me. That would be ridiculous, as I acknowledge that the history in question does not mean the same thing for other people that it does for me.

I really don't see why the same tolerance and common courtesy cannot be extended to the South.

Oh! Wait! Yea I do! Because it's politically convenient for the Far Left to polarize their base by pandering to minority separatist sentiments. :doh:

You don't see how totally ****ed up it is that these pictures exist?

No, I really do not.

 

[Redress]

Interesting to see the Clinton Gore Rebel Flag campaign. I wonder how many liberals that want everything ever associated with the rebel flag to be cast aside, destroyed or even dug up from graves, will still vote for Hillary. I'll bet it's close to all of them.

Clinton-Gore '92 Confederate Flag Campaign Pin Controversy : snopes.com

It’s important to note that there is no indicator that these buttons were actually made and distributed by the actual Clinton-Gore campaign.

One indicator that it isn’t official is that it lacks a union “bug,” the little marker showing that a piece of campaign material was printed in a union shop. If you look at other Clinton-Gore buttons, nearly all — but not all — have a bug somewhere.

 

[The Mark]

Quite frankly, they kind of need to get over it.

I'm Irish Catholic by heritage. I've got to tell you, I'm plenty offended by certain media's tendency to glorify certain Early Modern Monarchs with a history of mistreating both my ancestors in particular, and my religion in general. Take Elizabeth I, for example.

What I do not do, however, is go around demanding that such representations stop being made, simply because they offend me. That would be ridiculous, as I acknowledge that the history in question does not mean the same thing for other people that it does for me.

I really don't see why the same tolerance cannot be extended to the South.



No, I really do not.

I'm going to godwin this.

I think it a semi-legitimate comparison though.


Proudly displaying the confederate flag equates to Nazi veterans proudly displaying the Nazi flag.

Of course there were some individuals who served honorably under both flags.

But the organization that they were a part of supported and performed horrible and dishonorable things.

Thereby dishonoring that symbol, no matter what specific individuals have used it for.

 

[blaxshep]

Once you see a Hitler mustache you have already condemned the wearer.

Except Charile Chaplin wore one too.

When your a racist all you see is racism, I'd rather have pride.

 

[The Mark]

Half the jeeps and tracked vehicles in Nam had Confederate flags on them. It's a beautiful all-American battle flag.

That's the thing. I kind like the style and image of the flag. It's symmetrical, and all that.

But for now and perhaps forever, it represents enslavement of humans.

So **** that.

 

[Henrin]

Are you proud of your pointless cheap shot ?

Guess you couldn't retort his content.

I didn't watch the videos. :shrug:

 

[Risky Thicket]

Isn't eating food swimming in butter a southern cuisine thing?

Not really. It's more of a lard, bacon grease, fried food of all kinds or food cooked in fatback kind of thing. We were eating kale before it was healthy. Of course we'd boil the hell out of it with a hunk of fatback.

I grew up eating Southern or Soul food, same thing. I do love it, but I don't eat it like I once did.

Southern food is good food. It's just not all that good for you.

 

[Gathomas88]

I think it a semi-legitimate comparison though.

No, it's really not, and that's the whole problem here.

The Civil War was 150 years ago. The Battle Flag of Northern Virginia, and the Southern culture with which it is associated, have experienced more than 150 years of their own separate evolution in that same period.

Pretty much no one viewed either it, or the Confederacy, as being some symbol of unmitigated evil until just a few decades ago.

I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no reason why the South should simply wipe away that 150 years of history, or its symbols, over night just to appease such completely arbitrary modern revisionism. It frankly isn't justifiable anyway.

Again, let's apply the example I was just talking about before. Queen Elizabeth I had hundreds of Catholics murdered for their religion, ordered the deaths of tens of thousands of Irish Catholics at the hands of her soldiers, and deported hundreds of thousands of Irish Catholics to the Americas in a state of slavery in a campaign of deliberate religious suppression and ethnic cleansing.

Should she be viewed as being equivalent to the Nazis? Should all references to her be negative from now on? Honestly, her crimes are far worse than anything done by the Confederacy.

 

[The Mark]

No, it's really not, and that's the whole problem here.

The Civil War was 150 years ago. The Battle Flag of Northern Virginia, and the Southern culture with which it is associated, have experienced more than 150 years of its own separate evolution in that same period.

Pretty much no one viewed either it, or the Confederacy, as being some symbol of unmitigated evil until just a few decades ago.

I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no reason why the South should simply wipe that 150 years of history, or its symbols, over night just to appease such completely arbitrary modern revisionism. It frankly isn't justifiable anyway.

Again, let's apply the example I was just talking about before. Queen Elizabeth I had hundreds of Catholics murdered for their religion, ordered the deaths of tens of thousands of Irish Catholics at the hands of her soldiers, and deported hundreds of thousands of Irish Catholics to the Americas in a state of slavery in a campaign of deliberate religious suppression and ethnic cleansing.

Should she be viewed as being equivalent to the Nazis? Should all references to her be negative from now on? Honestly, her crimes are far worse than anything done by the Confederacy.

That was not the comparison I was attempting to make.

I'm saying that while neither symbol represents unmitigated evil, both still represent evil.

Much as, in your example, Queen Elizabeth I represents some bad, some good.


But the DEGREE of bad **** that the Nazi flag represents has made that symbol reviled throughout the world, and completely banned (I think?) in it's country of origin.

That, I think, is a bit extreme.

The confederate battle flag represents bad **** too.
IMO confederate battle flag should only be displayed in public places that are museums.

The pictures you showed clearly indicate to me that for decades we've been ignoring the negative side of that symbol and embracing the good. It's not enough good to counterbalance the bad, frankly.

 

[Moot]

Not really. It's more of a lard, bacon grease, fried food of all kinds or food cooked in fatback kind of thing. We were eating kale before it was healthy. Of course we'd boil the hell out of it with a hunk of fatback.

I grew up eating Southern or Soul food, same thing. I do love it, but I don't eat it like I once did.

Southern food is good food. It's just not all that good for you.

I think I gained ten pounds just from reading that. lol But I do love creole cooking. We don't get much of that around here.

 

[Gathomas88]

That was not the comparison I was attempting to make.

I'm saying that while neither symbol represents unmitigated evil, both still represent evil.

Much as, in your example, Queen Elizabeth I represents some bad, some good.


But the DEGREE of bad **** that the Nazi flag represents has made that symbol reviled throughout the world, and completely banned (I think?) in it's country of origin.

That, I think, is a bit extreme.

The confederate battle flag represents bad **** too.
IMO confederate battle flag should only be displayed in public places that are museums.

The pictures you showed clearly indicate to me that for decades we've been ignoring the negative side of that symbol and embracing the good. It's not enough good to counterbalance the bad, frankly.

Quite frankly, that's a matter of subjective opinion. I think the pictures I posted pretty clearly indicate that the vast majority of Southerners throughout the South's post-Civil War history have not, and do not, agree with that sentiment.

Really, that brings us to the crux of the issue here. Because the South does not agree that they should be blatantly ashamed of their history, and view their ancestors as being "evil" or their symbols as being "racist," as the prevailing politically correct dogma demands, certain political interests have taken it upon themselves to unilaterally try and force the South into doing so against its will.

That's simply wrong. It's bigoted, authoritarian, and even borderline fascist in the methods being used.

For a group which supposedly prides itself on "free expression" and "cultural tolerance" is also supremely ironic. It's actually been a rather enlightening "true colors" moment, highlighting the rabid and blatantly intolerant authoritarianism so endemic to the modern Left.

 

[The Mark]

Quite frankly, that's a matter of subjective opinion. I think the pictures I posted pretty clearly indicate that the vast majority of Southerners throughout the South's post-Civil War history have not, and do not, agree with that sentiment.

Really, that brings us to the crux of the issue here. Because the South does not agree that they should be blatantly ashamed of their history, and view their ancestors as being "evil" or their symbols as being "racist," as the prevailing politically correct dogma demands, certain political interests have taken it upon themselves to unilaterally try and force the South into doing so against its will.

That's simply wrong. It's bigoted, authoritarian, and even borderline fascist in the methods being used.

For a group which supposedly prides itself on "free expression" and "cultural tolerance" is also supremely ironic. It's actually been a rather enlightening "true colors" moment, highlighting the rabid and blatantly intolerant authoritarianism so endemic to the modern Left.

Not all the ancestors you speak of were "evil".

But any of them who believed that they had any legitimate right to enslave or even consider themselves superior to any other individual based on skin color or race was absolutely a party to the problem we have faced since that time.

Based on misinformation or not, that is racism. And it is unacceptable.

The confederate battle flag represents that. Has for decades. It would be foolish to deny this.
Therefor, displaying this flag on or in a public facility in any way (barring museums) is unacceptable.

Not because it represents honoring ancestors.
But because it also represents that unacceptable side of said ancestors. And acts as a constant reminder to anyone who experienced such oppression, or whose ancestors experienced such.

 

[Gathomas88]

Not all the ancestors you speak of were "evil".

But any of them who believed that they had any legitimate right to enslave or even consider themselves superior to any other individual based on skin color or race was absolutely a party to the problem we have faced since that time.

Based on misinformation or not, that is racism. And it is unacceptable.

The confederate battle flag represents that. Has for decades. It would be foolish to deny this.
Therefor, displaying this flag on or in a public facility in any way (barring museums) is unacceptable.

Not because it represents honoring ancestors.
But because it also represents that unacceptable side of said ancestors. And acts as a constant reminder to anyone who experienced such oppression, or whose ancestors experienced such.

Again, you don't realize how completely arbitrary and subjective this all is?

By this logic, the Founding Fathers were party to, and therefore represent, all of these same "evils," and so does the American flag.

If (in some hypothetical future) the UN were to become powerful enough that the United States' government was subordinate to it, and the rest of the nations under its influence were to decide that the American flag and the Founding Fathers were all "racist," or stood for "racism," and that we Americans needed to acknowledge that fact, apologize for it, and stop using our flag, as well as tear down every monument built to our Founding Fathers, how would you feel about that such a thing?

That's basically what this equivalent to.

A bunch of rabid authoritarian busy bodies, almost universally non-Southerners, have unilaterally decided how the South's symbols, heritage, and culture should be allowed to be viewed, and they are, equally unilaterally, attempting to force Southerners to submit to that completely arbitrary and subjective interpretation whether Southerners want to or not.

Why do you think that's okay?

As far as I'm concerned, what modern revisionism has concluded that the Confederate Battle Flag should or should not represent is completely irrelevant. The simple fact of the matter is that it means different things to different people.

For that reason, people - particularly overly opinionated non-Southerners - should be mature and tolerant enough to simply let bygones be bygones, rather than trying to arbitrarily impose their wills upon others with "jackboot" tactics.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Yep. Life and history are complicated. Symbols are important to most of human society. And what a particular symbol actually symbolizes to a people can change with time. In the end what we have to ask ourselves in this particular point in time is does this particular symbol unite us or divide us?

 

[Gathomas88]

Yep. Life and history are complicated. Symbols are important to most of human society. And what a particular symbol actually symbolizes to a people can change with time. In the end what we have to ask ourselves in this particular point in time is does this particular symbol unite us or divide us?

It was doing neither until certain biased media sources decided to basically use a completely unrelated incident as an excuse to start a full-on propaganda campaign meant to blame, shame, and alienate a quarter of the damn country into ideological submission to their own subjective world view. Since then, I'd say that the resulting conflict has very much served to needlessly reopen old wounds, and even set race relations back.

If you want to blame anything for "dividing" us here, blame Leftist "yellow journalism."

 

[Longshot Lou]

By this logic, the Founding Fathers were party to, and therefore represent, all of these same "evils,"

The U.S. Constitution does not make the acceptance of slavery a requirement. Any U.S. state could end slavery ON IT'S OWN, without requiring new federal legislation or a constitutional amendment.

The Confederate States Of America constitution FORBIDS any of it's states from ending slavery on it's own.


There is a big difference.

People need to stop making excuses for the confederate flag in public places , unless they would like to continue looking like idiots.

 

[TurtleDude]

The U.S. Constitution does not make the acceptance of slavery a requirement. Any U.S. state could end slavery ON IT'S OWN, without requiring new federal legislation or a constitutional amendment.

The Confederate States Of America constitution FORBIDS any of it's states from ending slavery on it's own.


There is a big difference.

People need to stop making excuses for the confederate flag in public places , unless they would like to continue looking like idiots.

there are so many other things that actually need attention instead of this silly ranting about a stupid flag

 

[Gathomas88]

The U.S. Constitution does not make the acceptance of slavery a requirement. Any U.S. state could end slavery ON IT'S OWN, without requiring new federal legislation or a constitutional amendment.

The Confederate States Of America constitution FORBIDS any of it's states from ending slavery on it's own.


There is a big difference.

People need to stop making excuses for the confederate flag in public places , unless they would like to continue looking like idiots.

Really kind of splitting hairs there, don't you think? :roll:

Bottom line: Both owned slaves, both were unapologetic about owning slaves, and both participated in and helped to preserve that system. In that regard, they are both "guilty" if one is looking to assign guilt.

Frankly, in all likelihood, even if the South had won, it would have wound up giving up slavery before the end of the 19th Century anyway. The system simply wasn't going to be economical for much longer.

 

[Longshot Lou]

there are so many other things that actually need attention instead of this silly ranting about a stupid flag

People need to stop making excuses for the confederate flag in public places , unless they would like to continue looking like idiots.

 

[Gathomas88]

People need to stop making excuses for the confederate flag in public places , unless they would like to continue looking like idiots.

You need to find something less trivial to obsess over, and stop trying to micromanage other people's behavior and belief systems.

 

[Redress]

Again, you don't realize how completely arbitrary and subjective this all is?

By this logic, the Founding Fathers were party to, and therefore represent, all of these same "evils," and so does the American flag.

Congratz, you just learned that you have to consider all aspects of some thing or one to judge it. You do need to look at the failures, the vices, and the bad things done by the founding fathers to have a complete understanding of them.

If (in some hypothetical future) the UN were to become powerful enough that the United States' government was subordinate to it, and the rest of the nations under its influence were to decide that the American flag and the Founding Fathers were all "racist," or stood for "racism," and that we Americans needed to acknowledge that fact, apologize for it, and stop using our flag, as well as tear down every monument built to our Founding Fathers, how would you feel about that such a thing?

That's basically what this equivalent to.

Well, no, actually it is not even remotely equivalent.

A bunch of rabid authoritarian busy bodies, almost universally non-Southerners, have unilaterally decided how the South's symbols, heritage, and culture should be allowed to be viewed, and they are, equally unilaterally, attempting to force Southerners to submit to that completely arbitrary and subjective interpretation whether Southerners want to or not.

Why do you think that's okay?

As far as I'm concerned, what modern revisionism has concluded that the Confederate Battle Flag should or should not represent is completely irrelevant. The simple fact of the matter is that it means different things to different people.

For that reason, people - particularly overly opinionated non-Southerners - should be mature and tolerant enough to simply let bygones be bygones, rather than trying to arbitrarily impose their wills upon others with "jackboot" tactics.

Well, that is interesting. I did not know that South Carlina's congress was mostly non-southerners...Any other remarkable "facts" you would care to drop on us?

 

[TurtleDude]

People need to stop making excuses for the confederate flag in public places , unless they would like to continue looking like idiots.

the people who look like idiots are the ones soiling their panties over that flag. I couldn't care less if someone wants to fly it. It means nothing to me but then again I don't look for reasons to be offended