The Real Modern Heritage of the Confederate Battle Flag [W:147]

[Redress]

the people who look like idiots are the ones soiling their panties over that flag. I couldn't care less if someone wants to fly it. It means nothing to me but then again I don't look for reasons to be offended

"Someone" can fly it, and in fact it would be unconstitutional for the government to stop them. At issue is whether state governments should fly it.

 

[Longshot Lou]

The confederate flag apologists just throw the kitchen sink at the issue hoping something sticks.

At the start of the Civil War, something like 40% of the population of South Carolina were black slaves. That's close to half the fricking state. What say- so do their descendants get as to the meaning of the confederate battle flag ? People use it as a symbol of white supremacy. Just because every southerner doesn't use it that way doesn't remove the stigma. Not at all.

The flag went into battle for the cause of the CSA, a white supremacist government.

**** it.

 

[Gathomas88]

Well, no, actually it is not even remotely equivalent.

By all means, please feel free to explain how. :roll:

Why would outsiders demanding to destroy your symbols and your heritage be any different than outsiders demanding to destroy mine?

Well, that is interesting. I did not know that South Carlina's congress was mostly non-southerners...Any other remarkable "facts" you would care to drop on us?

You mean the same legislature who unilaterally rushed to take the flag down without giving the slightest **** about the opinion of their constituents, because the party leadership and MSM based outside of South Carolina basically demanded it?

 

[VanceMack]

terrorizing 6 year olds.... Armed Confederate supporters interrupt black child's birthday party with racial slurs, death threats

You realize that for decades the Klan marched under the Stars and Stripes of the US....right?

 

[TurtleDude]

"Someone" can fly it, and in fact it would be unconstitutional for the government to stop them. At issue is whether state governments should fly it.

you of course are correct but I believe this discussion is a bit wider than governmental endorsement of that flag

 

[Redress]

By all means, please feel free to explain how. :roll:

Where my words that complicated? Your scifi scenario is not the same as what happened.

You mean the same legislature who unilaterally rushed to take the flag down without giving the slightest **** about the opinion of their constituents, because the party leadership and MSM basically demanded it?

The only ones who had the power to act. The ones who did not have to act, but did. The ones who chose to act because they felt it was either the right thing to do, or best for their chances of re-election. Spin it however you want, claiming that they are not southerners is pretty ****ing silly. And blaming every one else for what they did is even more ****ing silly.

 

[VanceMack]

The Real Modern Heritage of the Confederate Battle Flag

The confederate flag apologists just throw the kitchen sink at the issue hoping something sticks.

At the start of the Civil War, something like 40% of the population of South Carolina were black slaves. That's close to half the fricking state. What say- so do their descendants get as to the meaning of the confederate battle flag ? People use it as a symbol of white supremacy. Just because every southerner doesn't use it that way doesn't remove the stigma. Not at all.

The flag went into battle for the cause of the CSA, a white supremacist government.

**** it.

Ever see pictures of the Klan lining the streets of Washington DC with the IS flag being used as the proud symbol of oppression and hatred?
https://www.google.nl/search?q=klan...hkN6BxwIVyMAUCh1buQtp&biw=667&bih=299#imgrc=_

 

[Redress]

you of course are correct but I believe this discussion is a bit wider than governmental endorsement of that flag

It is the only thing that matters though. If I want to bitch about my neighbor flying that flag(I really don't though), I am well within my rights and it is far from the worst thing I can do. My neighbor would be well within his rights to laugh in my face if I did. That is all part of that wonderful thing we call free speech. The only time it really matters is when the government tries to tell some one they cannot for example fly a flag, or bitch about people flying the flag.

Gath can obsess over this topic all he wants. He can spin facts, claim things that are patently silly, create scifi scenarios to twist things to how he wants to present things how he wants them, and whatever other silly nonsense he wants to post. It is his right. And it is my right to laugh at it, poke holes in his really bad arguments, and generally entertain myself at his expense. As long as we both can do that, there is nothing really to be outraged over.

 

[Gathomas88]

Your scifi scenario is not the same as what happened.

An effectively conquered culture having its history and culture basically rewritten for it by the outsiders responsible for dominating them, and then having those same outsiders demand that they accept the rewritten version of their history and their culture in lieu of their own?

Again, how, pray tell, is that any different? Objectivity, you should work on it.

The only ones who had the power to act. The ones who did not have to act, but did. The ones who chose to act because they felt it was either the right thing to do, or best for their chances of re-election. Spin it however you want, claiming that they are not southerners is pretty ****ing silly. And blaming every one else for what they did is even more ****ing silly.

They were basically bullied into acting out of blind panic. In doing so, they pretty much ignored the actual will of the people of their state.

Does that sound like a valid use of the democratic principles this country was supposed to be built around to you?

 

[The Mark]

Again, you don't realize how completely arbitrary and subjective this all is?

By this logic, the Founding Fathers were party to, and therefore represent, all of these same "evils," and so does the American flag.

If (in some hypothetical future) the UN were to become powerful enough that the United States' government was subordinate to it, and the rest of the nations under its influence were to decide that the American flag and the Founding Fathers were all "racist," or stood for "racism," and that we Americans needed to acknowledge that fact, apologize for it, and stop using our flag, as well as tear down every monument built to our Founding Fathers, how would you feel about that such a thing?

That's basically what this equivalent to.

A bunch of rabid authoritarian busy bodies, almost universally non-Southerners, have unilaterally decided how the South's symbols, heritage, and culture should be allowed to be viewed, and they are, equally unilaterally, attempting to force Southerners to submit to that completely arbitrary and subjective interpretation whether Southerners want to or not.

Why do you think that's okay?

As far as I'm concerned, what modern revisionism has concluded that the Confederate Battle Flag should or should not represent is completely irrelevant. The simple fact of the matter is that it means different things to different people.

For that reason, people - particularly overly opinionated non-Southerners - should be mature and tolerant enough to simply let bygones be bygones, rather than trying to arbitrarily impose their wills upon others with "jackboot" tactics.

If we went down the road of listing past events as reasons to eliminate a flag or symbol, there would be no flags or symbols. Every country and organization has some issues in it's past, and the USA is no exception.

But TODAY, what the US flag represents is by no means the same as what it represented when it flew over our ****-ups.


The same cannot be said for the confederate battle flag.
What I'm mainly concerned with is what a given symbol represents today. At least from the perspective of public buildings, display of a symbol that unquestionably represents oppression and racism to some is easily construed as an endorsement of same by official entities.

In that sense, for the people who see it as such, it is as if the German embassy in Israel started flying the Nazi flag to honor their ancestors.

It would be seen as an insult, for damn sure.


The Nazi flag still holds it's negative connotations because people still use it in that context.
The Confederate Battle flag still holds it's negative connotations because people still use it in that context.

It is undeniable that racists exist who consider it a proud reminder and banner to represent their cause.

They've ****ed over anyone else who wanted to use it for other reasons.
Much like neo-nazi's have ****ed over anyone who wants to use the Swastika for legitimate reasons.

 

[Redress]

An effectively conquered culture having its history and culture basically rewritten for it by the outsiders responsible for dominating them, and then having those same outsiders demand that they accept that version of their history and their culture in lieu of their own?

Again, how, pray tell, is that any different? Objectivity, you should work on it.

Saying the flag cannot fly over a particular government building is not rewritting history. Do try and fail less.

They were basically bullied into acting out of blind panic. In doing so, they pretty much ignored the actual will of the people of their state.

Does that sound like a valid use of the democratic principles this country was supposed to be built around to you?

Wait, so your view is they responded to what people wanted, by ignoring the will of the people, and where bullied by people who had no power to bully them?

And you might want to take a class on government. Here is how it works: the people elect representatives. Those representatives then vote on laws based on their own views. They have no obligation anywhere in the US or state constitutions to vote the will of any one. Reading the constitution of the US and South Carolina might be a good idea for you.

 

[Gathomas88]

But TODAY, what the US flag represents is by no means the same as what it represented when it flew over our ****-ups.


The same cannot be said for the confederate battle flag.

Ummm... Why? Because you, and a bunch of other non-Southerners say so?

Again, that's the crux of the issue here. You have apparently made the decision that the Confederate Battle Flag and Southern culture should only be viewed in a certain way.

Now you are trying to make the argument that Southerners must view it the same way.

I'm sorry, dude, but no. We're not going to do that simply because you or anyone else demands it.

The really messed up part is that a lot of people who share your views are actively trying to punish those of us who try to resist that imposition.

 

[Gathomas88]

Saying the flag cannot fly over a particular government building is not rewritting history. Do try and fail less.

This goes well beyond that, and you damn well know it. Do try and play stupid less.

Demanding that the governments of other states comply with your wishes is bad enough. Tearing down monuments, digging up graves, throwing all merchandise related to certain historical events out of stores, engaging in full on social discrimination and bullying against anyone with a differing opinion based upon blind bigotry, and basically asking that history be rewritten to match a certain worldview is something else entirely.

Wait, so your view is they responded to what people wanted, by ignoring the will of the people, and where bullied by people who had no power to bully them?

It wasn't what the people of South Carolina wanted. It was what the party wanted, what the media wanted, and what non-Southerners wanted.

Local government caved like a tin roof under a landslide.

 

[Longshot Lou]

The really messed up part is that a lot of people who share your views are actively trying to punish those of us who try to resist that imposition.

You are hell bent on maintaining a symbol of white supremacy.

Would you like that as your epitaph ?

 

[Ryriena]

The thing is you can not change the south culture like you want them too. The south sees the battle flag as their heritage, stupid northerners tell us what too do is why we started the civil war in the first place. It's not up to Northrens to tell us how too see the flag. I have seen more flags up in the south than ever before because we do see this as an attack on the South.

 

[Gathomas88]

You are hell bent on maintaining a symbol of white supremacy.

Would you like that as your epitaph ?

It isn't a symbol of white supremacy. :shrug:

 

[The Mark]

Ummm... Why? Because you, and a bunch of other non-Southerners say so?

Again, that's the crux of the issue here. You have apparently made the decision that the Confederate Battle Flag and Southern culture should only be viewed in a certain way.

Now you are trying to make the argument that Southerners must view it the same way.

I'm sorry, dude, but no. We're not going to do that simply because you or anyone else demands it.

The really messed up part is that a lot of people who share your views are actively trying to punish those of us who try to resist that imposition.

No.

I'm saying that the Confederate Battle Flag represents slavery and oppression to some persons, and pride about the same things to others.

This makes it unacceptable as a symbol displayed on or in public buildings (excepting museums).


I don't really give a damn if you want to fly the Confederate Battle Flag on your home flagpole, or paint it on your vehicle, or tattoo it on your arm.

Public display is unacceptable, however.


As I pointed out just previous, it's the same as if the German embassy in Israel started flying the Nazi Swastika flag to honor their brave ancestors.

Sure, their ancestors were brave and fought honorably under that banner.

But some of them were also sick mother****ers who will forever be considered a disgrace to the human race.


Yes I am absolutely equating these two situations.

 

[The Mark]

It isn't a symbol of white supremacy. :shrug:

Yes it is.

Not to you, perhaps, but it undeniably is a symbol of that to some people.

 

[Ryriena]

Again, when you have disfaced monuments, go to the links of misrepresentations of Southern history, diging up graves to prove your points then I say you no longer have a point.

 

[Gathomas88]

No.

I'm saying that the Confederate Battle Flag represents slavery and oppression to some persons, and pride about the same things to others.

This makes it unacceptable as a symbol displayed on or in public buildings (excepting museums).


I don't really give a damn if you want to fly the Confederate Battle Flag on your home flagpole, or paint it on your vehicle, or tattoo it on your arm.

Public display is unacceptable, however.


As I pointed out just previous, it's the same as if the German embassy in Israel started flying the Nazi Swastika flag to honor their brave ancestors.

Sure, their ancestors were brave and fought honorably under that banner.

But some of them were also sick mother****ers who will forever be considered a disgrace to the human race.


Yes I am absolutely equating these two situations.

You should stop, because they're really not comparable.

Frankly, neither are the flags in question here. It's a battle flag, not the actual flag of the Confederate government. A better comparison would be Germany's Iron Cross, or Japan's "Rising Sun" flag.

Both of those tend to be strongly associated with German and Japanese culture, even in spite of being associated with some truly heinous regimes in those nation's histories (up to and including the Third Reich and Imperial Japanese), and even a few modern political "supremacist" organizations. Neither nation has given them up, however. To the contrary, both are still used as symbols of those nation's military forces.

Given how offensive many other nations view these symbols as being, this really isn't any different than Southern military units, and Southern culture, continuing to make use of the Confederate Battle Flag.

Yes it is.

Not to you, perhaps, but it undeniably is a symbol of that to some people.

Why are "some" people more important than others?

Why are the entirely subjective feelings of those "some" people so important that we apparently aren't even allowed to fly the flag Southern soldiers would have historically fought and died under over a freaking war memorial built in their very honor? Why they are so much more important than the rest of us who view things differently it that apparently warrants tearing down monuments to those soldiers, and even digging up the graves of US veterans?

I mean... I'm sorry, but where does this asinine appeasement end exactly? It seems like we're the only ones losing here, and the demands from the other side are only getting more extreme with every new injustice they are allowed to get away with.

 

[Ryriena]

No.

I'm saying that the Confederate Battle Flag represents slavery and oppression to some persons, and pride about the same things to others.

This makes it unacceptable as a symbol displayed on or in public buildings (excepting museums).


I don't really give a damn if you want to fly the Confederate Battle Flag on your home flagpole, or paint it on your vehicle, or tattoo it on your arm.

Public display is unacceptable, however.


As I pointed out just previous, it's the same as if the German embassy in Israel started flying the Nazi Swastika flag to honor their brave ancestors.

Sure, their ancestors were brave and fought honorably under that banner.

But some of them were also sick mother****ers who will forever be considered a disgrace to the human race.


Yes I am absolutely equating these two situations.

Also The Mark, your a northerner you have no right to tell us how we see our flag. You also have no right too tell us where we can wave or wear them.

 

[Longshot Lou]

It isn't a symbol of white supremacy.

You are delusional.

And brainwashed by revisionist southern history. I have a news flash for you Ace, the Civil War was caused by the south's determination to maintain and protect African slavery, and their understanding that the Republican Party (of the time) and Abraham Lincoln, the incoming President, were on record as opposing slavery. That is what caused secession. It's not fricking brain surgery either. All you have to do is put down the southern revisionist history books.

 

[The Mark]

You should stop, because they're really not comparable.

Frankly, neither are the flags in question here. It's a battle flag, not the actually flag of the Confederacy. A better comparison would be Germany's Iron Cross, or Japan's "Rising Sun" flag.

Both of those tend to be strongly associated with German and Japanese culture, even in spite of being associated with some truly heinous regimes in those nation's histories, and even a few modern political "supremacist" organizations. Neither nation has given them up. To the contrary, both are still used as symbols of those nation's military forces.

This really isn't any different than Southern military units, and Southern culture continuing to make use of the Confederate Battle Flag.

But neither of those symbols represent oppression and racism.

The Confederate Battle Flag does.

Why are "some" people more important than others?

They aren't.

That's the entire ****ing point.

 

[Untamedrose]

As an american......sure he can. And yup as an american you have every right to be an ignorant about it... so... Ya AMERICA.
Thank goodness it's not the confederacy, likely still have apartheid.

 

[The Mark]

Also The Mark, your a northerner you have no right to tell us how we see our flag. You also have no right too tell us where we can wave or wear them.

Firstly, it's "you're", not "your".

Sorry, that's one of my pet peeves.

Moving on.

Of course I can't tell you where to wave or wear them.
I'm saying it is unacceptable to me for any public building, anywhere, to display the Confederate Battle flag. Excepting museums, in the context of civil war history.

I'm urging YOU to realize this, and push for it's removal from those places.