The Real Modern Heritage of the Confederate Battle Flag [W:147]

[Gathomas88]

But neither of those symbols represent oppression and racism.

The Confederate Battle Flag does.

Nonsense. Ask the Chinese or Koreans what they think the Rising Sun Flag represents.

Again, both oversaw atrocities at least an order of a magnitude worse than anything done under the Confederate Battle Flag. Hell! You could actually claim the same thing about the US flag.

After all, the C.S.A. didn't burn Union cities to the ground out of spite, nor did it massacre Native Americans, or oversee 70 years of segregation. It also certainly never nuked anyone, or carpet bombed them.

They aren't.

That's the entire ****ing point.

Apparently, they are if we Southerners are expected to destroy basically everything about our culture, and flat out disown our heritage, just to appease their minority opinion.

 

[Gathomas88]

Snip

If this can still be considered to be a "white supremacist" flag simply because of its history...

Then so can this.

Try to rationalize your way around it all you want. It's really just that simple. :shrug:

 

[Ryriena]

As an american......sure he can. And yup as an american you have every right to be an ignorant about it... so... Ya AMERICA.
Thank goodness it's not the confederacy, likely still have apartheid.

Oh please the north got to come to a gradual conclusion that slavery was wrong, why couldn't they let the South come to that same conclusion in time? It was northerners, not getting our culture, and society, along with Abe's refusing to let the south leave which was not illegal at the time that was the cause of said war. Since not one person was tried for treason, even thought they tried too arrest Jefferson Davis, but hey drink that anti south Kool-laid.....We have proven that in the poll about the confederate flag that the North was just as morally corrupted in the Slave trade as the the south was by the time of the civil war. If we had come to the same conclusion gradually, then I could see things like the Jim Crow laws not existing.

 

[Longshot Lou]

Apparently, they are if we Southerners are expected to destroy basically everything about our culture just to appease their minority opinion.

The confederate battle flag was used extensively in the post WW2 period to represent white supremacist obstruction of civil rights laws and desegregation in the south. As George Wallace conducted political campaigns based on opposition to desegregation and civil rights, he had the confederate battle flag prominently displayed behind him at the podium. The Ku Klux Klan has paraded in anti-civil rights protests carrying the battle flag. The flag HAS that meaning , whether you like it or not. It is a permanent stain on your flag, and you seemingly embrace that stain.

And of course, the flag represented the Confederate States of America, a known and proven white supremacist entity. In the world of logic and facts, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Lost Cause indeed.

 

[Untamedrose]

Oh a poll that that seals the deal...did you know 41% of american think humans walked with the dinosaurs? History isnt our strong suit it seems.

And you can drop the north vs south crap Im southern....in NC in a tiny little country town with a 60% black population. And NO ONE without a direct connection to the KKK flys that flag here. I can drive all over this town an will basically never see one...

 

[The Mark]

Nonsense. Ask the Chinese or Koreans what they think the Rising Sun Flag represents.

Again, both oversaw atrocities at least an order of a magnitude worse than anything done under the Confederate Battle Flag. Hell! You could actually claim the same thing about the US flag.

After all, the C.S.A. didn't burn Union cities to the ground out of spite, nor did it massacre Indians. It also certainly never nuked anyone, or carpet bombed them.

Indeed so.

Yet so far as I know, none of the flags you mention are actively being used by racist individuals to display their hatred and desire for oppression of their fellow man.

It's unquestionable.

When someone sees a Confederate Battle Flag on or near a person, one of the first questions they ask themselves "is that person racist?".
Or maybe that's just me...no, it can't be just me.
The point is, NONE of the other symbols we've discussed have that connotation.

It's a clearly disturbing aspect of the symbol.

So when the Confederate Battle Flag is seen flying over an official building, people ask themselves...is that government racist?

Apparently, they are if we Southerners are expected to destroy basically everything about our culture just to appease their minority opinion.

You're saying that everything about your culture is wrapped up in the Confederate Battle Flag? That can't be right.

No, my point is that the Confederate Battle Flag represents ancestral honor to some, and oppression and racism to others. For a few nut-bags, it represents both.

All of those individuals have an equal right to take that symbol as they do. But the oppression and racism part prevents any reasonable suggestion of displaying it on official buildings, since doing so unquestionably gives an air of legitimacy to it's negative connotations.

 

[Ryriena]

Firstly, it's "you're", not "your".

Sorry, that's one of my pet peeves.

Moving on.

Of course I can't tell you where to wave or wear them.
I'm saying it is unacceptable to me for any public building, anywhere, to display the Confederate Battle flag. Excepting museums, in the context of civil war history.

I'm urging YOU to realize this, and push for it's removal from those places.

Well, to me it is up to us in the South not to y'all up North. We damn well will not see this flag as unacceptable for public buildings in the near future. You're not from the South and thus have no right to tell me how to see a flag.

 

[The Mark]

If this can still be considered to be a "white supremacist" flag simply because of its history...

Then so can this.

Try to rationalize your way around it all you want. It's really just that simple. :shrug:

I've told you several times that the historical part is not the issue.

It's CURRENT usage that is the issue. Of course, current usage is in part due to past usage, but it's still in current use as an icon of white supremacy.

 

[The Mark]

Well, to me it is up to us in the South not to y'all up North. We damn well will not see this flag as unacceptable for public buildings in the near future. You're not from the South and thus have no right to tell me how to see a flag.

Quite so.

I'm trying to convince youthat you shouldn't support it's public display.


I'm getting the impression I might as well stop bothering though.

 

[Henrin]

Oh a poll that that seals the deal...did you know 41% of american think humans walked with the dinosaurs? History isnt our strong suit it seems.

And you can drop the north vs south crap Im southern....in NC in a tiny little country town with a 60% black population. And NO ONE without a direct connection to the KKK flys that flag here. I can drive all over this town an will basically never see one...

Guess what? 68 percent of the population of your state sees the flag as a symbol of southern pride. When looking at the whole country you still lose with 57% of the population seeing it as symbol of southern pride. Don't look towards the young either as 51% percent of young Americans see it as symbol of southern pride. Your side is losing in popular opinion, sorry.

 

[Untamedrose]

You realize that for decades the Klan marched under the Stars and Stripes of the US....right?

Know what bugs the crap out of me....... and yes this is anecdotal evidence but still.
Posted that link in several forums, and on FB......and Not a Single Pro confederate flag person has been outraged. Not one, all I get it BS and excuses.

Shouldnt you be pissed as hell?
Far more then I ever could be about a kid Today having to go have and get "the race talk" at 6! Another generation of blacks taught to fear that flag. I mean if...... the flag doesnt mean hate, doesnt mean exactly this...Thats your enemy Thats your problem. Instead you side with them...you give deflections.

and the You here is all pro confederate flag folks not just you that I am quoting.

 

[Untamedrose]

Guess what? 68 percent of the population of your state sees the flag as a symbol of southern pride. When looking at the whole country you still lose with 57% of the population seeing it as symbol of southern pride. Don't look towards the young either as 51% percent of young Americans see it as symbol of southern pride. Your side is losing in popular opinion, sorry.

9 out of 10 black southerns see it as a sign of oppression and to be feared.

 

[Ryriena]

Oh a poll that that seals the deal...did you know 41% of american think humans walked with the dinosaurs? History isnt our strong suit it seems.

And you can drop the north vs south crap Im southern....in NC in a tiny little country town with a 60% black population. And NO ONE without a direct connection to the KKK flys that flag here. I can drive all over this town an will basically never see one...

Please it wasn't the actual poll sweetie, the thread I was talking about happened to have the people that are knowgldeable about history debating the civil war and the causes. Yeah the most conservative state in the south doesn't have that flag waving, which is odd to say the least. Also how can a town be 60% black when y'all are only 22% of the population? ��

 

[Henrin]

Know what bugs the crap out of me....... and yes this is anecdotal evidence but still.
Posted that link in several forums, and on FB......and Not a Single Pro confederate flag person has been outraged. Not one, all I get it BS and excuses.

Shouldnt you be pissed as hell?
Far more then I ever could be about a kid Today having to go have and get "the race talk" at 6! Another generation of blacks taught to fear that flag. I mean if...... the flag doesnt mean hate, doesnt mean exactly this...Thats your enemy Thats your problem. Instead you side with them...you give deflections.

and the You here is all pro confederate flag folks not just you that I am quoting.

Who is teaching blacks to fear the flag? There is plenty of blacks that see it the same way as whites, so did they miss their fear lessons or something?

 

[TheDemSocialist]

The "modern heritage" of the Rebel flag. Its not racist, its just that the Klan adopted it, various neo-nazi groups adopted it, and oh yea many states adopted it as apart of their "heritage" in the south during the 50's and 60's, just so happened to be around the same time as the civil rights movement was going on... :roll:


**** that "heritage"

 

[Ryriena]

9 out of 10 black southerns see it as a sign of oppression and to be feared.

According too that poll, you're wrong.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Well, to me it is up to us in the South not to y'all up North. We damn well will not see this flag as unacceptable for public buildings in the near future. You're not from the South and thus have no right to tell me how to see a flag.

Okay, I AM from the Deep South, so I CAN damn well talk. I was raised in the very deepest of the Deep South - the MS Delta - and my whole direct family line all the way back to 1870 is in one little cemetery by a Southern Baptist church there in the Delta. I grew up strongly conservative. I loved my Southern heritage, and I proudly owned a Confederate flag. There's not many people out there who have Southern roots as deeply as I do.

So yeah, I DO have the right to tell you about the Confederate flag. And I'm going to tell you why I threw way my flag several years ago - it came after reading why my state seceded from the Union - it WAS all about slavery. Try looking up our states' articles/declarations of secession wherein they delineate their reasons for leaving the Union.

You live in Texas, so you should know that in 1830, Texas was a part of Mexico ...and that's when Mexico abolished slavery. So what did Texas do? They converted all their slaves to serfdom. And when Texas gained their independence in 1836, one of the very first things they did was to reestablish slavery in their new nation.

You never heard about things like this when you studied high school history, did you? I know I sure didn't - there was no way that they would have showed us the hard proof that yeah, the Civil War really was all about slavery. But now, the knowledge is spreading. It was there all the time, but they would not show it to us.

Do yourself a favor - look up the other side of the story, find out the things that you were never told, the very same things that I was never told in the days when I proudly hung the Stars and Bars in my dorm room at Miss. State.

 

[Untamedrose]

Please it wasn't the actual poll sweetie, the thread I was talking about happened to have the people that are knowgldeable about history debating the civil war and the causes. Yeah the most conservative state in the south doesn't have that flag waving, which is odd to say the least. Also how can a town be 60% black when y'all are only 22% of the population? ��

Bless your heart Not the brightest thing.
Populations of race can vary from place to place city to city. I mean California is 14% Asians...doesnt mean every state and city has 14% Asians lot will have less then 1% with the national being around 3.
My city is 60% black and we arnt alone Cities with the Highest Percentage of Blacks (African Americans) in North Carolina | Zip Atlas

 

[Jetboogieman]

I'm getting the impression I might as well stop bothering though.

Gee mate, nothing gets past you does it :2razz:

What was your first clue...

On a personal note for me it's no different than someone proudly adorning this flag:

I'd get the F'ing **** away from that person as soon as possible...

And actually I just discovered...

 

[The Mark]

Guess what? 68 percent of the population of your state sees the flag as a symbol of southern pride. When looking at the whole country you still lose with 57% of the population seeing it as symbol of southern pride. Don't look towards the young either as 51% percent of young Americans see it as symbol of southern pride. Your side is losing in popular opinion, sorry.

The problem is that it is both a symbol of pride in ancestry AND a symbol of pride in oppression and racism.

So long as it still flies officially, racists and bigots can point to it in the cover of their homes and small groups and say "we're still here, and our standard still flies".

 

[Untamedrose]

Who is teaching blacks to fear the flag? There is plenty of blacks that see it the same way as whites, so did they miss their fear lessons or something?

Did you see my link that this is in reference too? Should click it...read it...then respond

Cause Im pretty sure confederate flag waving idiots screaming die n***** and showing off guns at a 6 year olds b day party would teach that lesson pretty well. But sure it's the Liberals fault :eyeroll:

 

[DiAnna]

The elephant in the room, the real "modern heritage" of the Rebel flag is that it was dragged out of mothballs in the 1960's as a protest against segregation and the civil rights movement.

Now most people have pretty much gotten over that, most southern states have removed it from their public/government property, some have even taken it out of their own state flags, and the rest of the country just doesn't even give two tosses about it. Until one day a mass murderer uses it as an excuse to resurrect a new race war, and people realize that black people in South Carolina have always resented that flag flying at one of their monuments. So the city takes it down, and every forum in the country is lit up by people screaming about losing their glorious battle flag.

Thing is, they didn't lose a thing. Anyone can fly that flag legally anywhere in the country; on their homes, on their cars, on their bikes/motorcycles. Just not on government property in those areas where legislators have decided it doesn't belong.

Yes, people need to get over it... people that keep starting these danged kind of threads, which just remind people too young to remember exactly why the flag was resurrected 50 years ago are reminded of it.

 

[Ryriena]

Gee mate, nothing gets past you does it :2razz:

What was your first clue...

On a personal note for me it's no different than someone proudly adorning this flag:

I'd get the F'ing **** away from that person as soon as possible...

And actually I just discovered...

Oh oh we might need to get rid of those flags too but the Brits might not be too happy about that.....

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Please it wasn't the actual poll sweetie, the thread I was talking about happened to have the people that are knowgldeable about history debating the civil war and the causes. Yeah the most conservative state in the south doesn't have that flag waving, which is odd to say the least. Also how can a town be 60% black when y'all are only 22% of the population? ��

To address your question, I'll give you an example. I'm from Sunflower County in MS. It's 72.9% black - look it up.

And if you go there, you'll find Indianola Academy, which - from the time it was opened as a "segregation academy" in protest against the passage of the Civil Rights Act to this very day - has had less than ten black students. When I attended there (1975), there were no black students, nor would any have been tolerated.

The next year, I went to Ruleville High School, where there were 480 students, about twenty of which were white.

So...perhaps you should learn that just because you haven't personally seen something, that doesn't mean you should assume it's false.

Oh, and one more thing - Texas isn't the most conservative state in the South. Mississippi is (and they still have the Confederate flag as part of the state flag). And that's why I tell all my friends that Mississippi's a wonderful place to stay away from. I miss the land, the weather, and especially the food, oh, man, the food...but the toxic mix of conservatism and racism (and they go hand-in-hand in MS) makes that place unbearable to those able to see past the 'hospitality'.

 

[Untamedrose]

Okay, I AM from the Deep South, so I CAN damn well talk. I was raised in the very deepest of the Deep South - the MS Delta - and my whole direct family line all the way back to 1870 is in one little cemetery by a Southern Baptist church there in the Delta. I grew up strongly conservative. I loved my Southern heritage, and I proudly owned a Confederate flag. There's not many people out there who have Southern roots as deeply as I do.

So yeah, I DO have the right to tell you about the Confederate flag. And I'm going to tell you why I threw way my flag several years ago - it came after reading why my state seceded from the Union - it WAS all about slavery. Try looking up our states' articles/declarations of secession wherein they delineate their reasons for leaving the Union.

You live in Texas, so you should know that in 1830, Texas was a part of Mexico ...and that's when Mexico abolished slavery. So what did Texas do? They converted all their slaves to serfdom. And when Texas gained their independence in 1836, one of the very first things they did was to reestablish slavery in their new nation.

You never heard about things like this when you studied high school history, did you? I know I sure didn't - there was no way that they would have showed us the hard proof that yeah, the Civil War really was all about slavery. But now, the knowledge is spreading. It was there all the time, but they would not show it to us.

Do yourself a favor - look up the other side of the story, find out the things that you were never told, the very same things that I was never told in the days when I proudly hung the Stars and Bars in my dorm room at Miss. State.

Golf claps...

Pineapples...... I know sounds random but you should look them up(inference to southern culture). MUCH better example symbol of southern heritage, decades older tradition then this flag, with 10 times the better meanings behind it.