The next Zimmerman (almost)[W:65]

[SheWolf]

That's pretty bad. Who sings that?

Here's a song I used to listen to when I was in high school:

"Caught
Now you're mine
I am the master of your whipping time
The smile
On my lips
The look of horror on your face
Self
Justification
Can't rid the sexual fascination
Can
You deny
My face of pleasure the gleam in my eye

You're nothing
An object of animation
A subjective mannequin
Beaten into submission
Raping again and again

Shackled
My princess
Dangling in distress
Here
To discipline
My sole purpose never ends
Bleeding
On your knees
My satisfaction is what I need
The urge
To take my fist
And violate every oriface

You're nothing
An object of animation
A subjective mannequin
Beaten into submission
Raping again and again

Slaves to my torment
Scream to your heart's content
Time and time again
Pleasure in inflicting pain
Power so insane
Trying to circumvent
Unadulterated battery
Manipulated reality
God is dead - I am alive!"

1994, not rap. :shrug:

 

[SheWolf]

I grew up with the internet. I don't feel I am exposed to violence and negative culture. Maybe older people are just shocked by the way things have changed.

Hell, my mom watches Two in Half Men, and I think that that is stupid and nasty. Her Mom never saw married couples in the same bed on TV.


Try to keep things in perspective. Nothing is wrong, corrupt, or immoral with youth.

As you're pointing out yourself, yeah, every generation is different. My point is specifically about how the media influences in this generation are different from every other generation, because of their constancy and pervasiveness.



Yeah, that's kind of my point. Today's generation is being saturated with negative culture on an hourly basis. And that's a problem that no other generation has faced. I don't even want to think about the problems the next generation are going to face.

 

[SheWolf]

Nobody is arguing the kids were angels and nothing is wrong with littering. I don't like it either. But just because you're offended it doesn't give you the right to be jerk.

All you do is discuss their actions, and how their actions affect you. You don't seem to understand or grasp the power of your own actions. You handled the situation wrong. You didn't teach those kids respect.

If you really want to change the area, then do it in a proactive way.

Do I live in the ghetto? I live in the small upper-class section of the city now, but I grew up in the ghetto of Baltimore as a kid.



I think I made it pretty clear that the point of mentioning the drink was because of the littering. Don't get hung up on a word as simple as took, especially because it's not inaccurate whatsoever. Your reaction is like I used the word stole. :roll:



I don't care if they're not my kids, I'm not gonna just sit there and watch them be disrespectful as heck to those in the neighborhood. So you think if I witness kids throwing trash on the ground of public property, I'm supposed to just turn my head and act like I didn't see anything? You clearly weren't raised under the culture of respecting others, especially your elders. Would you prefer I just tape his actions with my phone and head on up to the station to have him get a misdemeanor for littering? IMO, telling him to pick up his trash was going easy on him.



Oh, I've had plenty of exposure to it from living in Baltimore. The difference is that you and these kids don't see how this behavior is rude as hell to others. Having made the transition from lower to middle-upper class, I've experienced the two extremes of politeness and know that rude **** is unnecessary.



Someone, whether it's me, the police, or whomever needs to get it through the kid's head that you don't get to live "like a bad ass". His bad ass action of littering is illegal, plain and simple.



Actions are to be judged considering intentions. Have I ever intentionally littered? The answer is no. Throwing crap on the ground intentionally is a heck of a lot different then the wind accidentally blowing your balloon or napkin away where you can't reasonably catch it. I use entitlement here because he should know darn well that what he was doing was wrong. Under that assumption, he thinks he should be allowed to get away with wrongdoing. Is that clear?



Don't worry, I do have disdain for anyone who decides to sing the lyrics "I just need some *****, understand me." That's the crap he was singing, and to random girls walking down the street. Again, I suppose you don't see that as disrespectful.



Just to be clear, this type of behavior, which is reasonably seen as disrespectful, is why my buddies and I would not hire or try to help these two kids in any way. Has it ever occurred to you that this is why young black males have the worst unemployement rates? I'm willing to help anyone on the simple condition of respect and personal responsibility. If you want, I can post some pictures of the high school graduation announcements and thank you cards from of a couple of black young ladies I tutored in math who just got accepted to colleges.

Overall, I see your perspective is the expectation of others to simply tolerate disrespectful behavior.

 

[SheWolf]

Do you want to be seen as polite and be treated with respect in return?

How can you say you want to teach people respect when you demonstrate none?

And weren't you just saying that you have a problem with how disrespectfully they talk to one another?

Has it crossed your mind that littering is illegal for a damn reason?

I am acting like an adult. You expect adults to be ******s and act like a kid is on the same level.

 

[repeter]

I grew up with the internet. I don't feel I am exposed to violence and negative culture. Maybe older people are just shocked by the way things have changed.

Hell, my mom watches Two in Half Men, and I think that that is stupid and nasty. Her Mom never saw married couples in the same bed on TV.


Try to keep things in perspective. Nothing is wrong, corrupt, or immoral with youth.

You're not an impoverished inner city kid, though, are you? A good deal of negative media is directed towards that market, because as it was said earlier on this thread, the music often highlights problems they face. But the presented solutions( sex, violence, drugs) along with the deplorable behavior of the artists, who become role models, end up creating a positive feedback loop.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Yes, actually, it does mean that he can not publicly reprimand someone elses kids for what HE considers socially unacceptable behavior. Adults are welcome to share some wisdom, help a child if he is in physical danger but I would never want someone else to decide what my kids should and should not be reprimanded for, that's the parents job. And adults are not people of authority with kids. They are people of authority when they are in positions of authority.

This one speaks volumes to me about our conflict.

 

[Tucker Case]

That's pretty bad. Who sings that?

Slayer.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You are right. In fact you probably should have called the National Guard or your local SWAT team

This made me laugh.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

I disagree. You can become extremely wealthy through immoral, uncivil, and violent endeavors.

Yep. This is one of the huge myths perpetuated in American society: that good attitudes and behavior lead to success while bad attitudes and behavior lead to poverty. That's so incredibly simplistic and false. It's just like the myth that successful people are only successful because they worked hard when, in fact, all successful people have benefited from circumstances beyond their control.

These myths and others do nothing but perpetuate prejudicial lies against poor people that have existed for centuries.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

I can imagine that if you'd have made them laugh instead, and had joked around with them, you may have had a better time. Them too. Just a thought.

Good point. Especially with teens - who tend to be down for a good time all the time - making them laugh, having fun and THEN mentioning the litter in a fun, friendly way would have been a better way to get the message across. Hell, even picking up the trash at the end of the game in a "no big deal" way might have sent a better message. The thing is that there are MANY ways to send a positive message to people. Telling strangers that they're going to live in the ghetto is not one of them. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if - as young black guys - such behavior created or fed resentment in them of white people.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

I can speak because I have a right to as well. But you don't see me parading in front of people. No one would follow me. Idiots follow those two.

You said that black people "allowed" them to speak. I said that they aren't "allowed", they speak because they have a right to. This is truth and your response evades that truth instead of acknowledging it.

Seems to me that both of these men have long been held up as leaders and role models in the black community. If they hadn't, no one would listen when they speak anymore.

Well, given that Jackson was a trusted civil rights leader with MLK and given that he provides scholarships, leadership programs and other opportunities for young black people among others, of course he has some meaningful role among some of the black population. It doesn't, however, mean that every black person or even the majority of black people agree with everything he says and does.

Sure TPD.

You don't have to believe the truth. /shrug

Well, if you'd like for me to look at the statistics, we could find quite a few things white people are better than black people at. For instance, we are better at not killing each other off than black people are. We're better at not getting thrown into jail. We're better at completing high school. I could keep going. Of course, all of these FACTS make me racist in your eyes so we'll move to my next point.

You do sound like a racist. After all, you just simplified murder rates, imprisonment rates and high school completion rates to a matter of one race just being "better" than another. That is racism. Extremely disappointing from you particularly given my earlier defenses of you as poster when people insulted you. It seems, however, as if after the Zimmerman case, a lot of white posters' hostility towards blacks has really come out though.

I will agree with you that Limbaugh is an idiot. And what happened when he called Sandra Fluke a slut and prostitute? He lost a lot of sponsors, a lot of white conservatives spoke out against him (including the so called idiot Bill O'Reilly), and he has lost a lot of listeners. That is how a "white idiot" is handled by white people.

Yeah, you're sounding more and more like a racist. "White people just do it better." Wow. And again, Limbaugh is still wildly popular. And, again, as well, black people criticize "black idiots" all the time whether or not you are aware of it. Hell, look at how much criticism dumbasses like Alan Keyes and Herman Cain got (can't wait to see how you discount that criticism). Anyway, the point I'm trying to get across you to that seems to be flying over your head is that talking about "white people" and "black people" as monolithic groups in this context is absurd. Your argument is foolish and racist.

Bill O'Reilly is not an idiot. The guy donates more of his time and money to charity than Pres Obama, Vice Pres Biden, and Nancy Pelosi combined.

O'Reilly isn't an idiot because he donates a lot of time and money to charity, but Jackson and Sharpton are still idiots even though they do the same in addition to having their own charities. You are clueless. Both of them have provided so many scholarships to young black men and women to help them out of situations. Both of them have outreach programs geared towards getting black youth away from violence, drugs, et al.. But why doesn't that count for them? Because they're black? Because you're ignorant?

Also, the guy does not automatically side with someone because they have an (R) by their name like Limbaugh does. Does he get loud and sometimes obnoxious on his show? Yeah, a little. However, he gets no less obnoxious than Jon Stewart. Why didn't you call him an idiot? Because you agree with him more often than O'Reilly? They're both political entertainers. Should they not be looked at the same? How about Keith Olbermann? Why didn't you call him out?

SO MUCH DELUSION AND DEFLECTION. Dude, you've got racism all over your posts and you don't even know it. And your definition of "idiot" is so biased, but you're treating it as objective and they criticizing people who don't subscribe to it.

Honestly, over the past couple of months, this forum has truly sickened me with the amount of "white people are just better" comments that have come out of the woodwork. I'm the kind of person who can take and, in fact, enjoys rough debates, but being surrounded by so much unfettered prejudice and racism is just toxic, particularly when it comes from people I had respect for. This kind of **** is beyond mere disagreements. This is sick and it's taking over the forum in a way that I'm losing the ability to tolerate.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

This one speaks volumes to me about our conflict.

You and your innuendo.

 

[MarineTpartier]

You said that black people "allowed" them to speak. I said that they aren't "allowed", they speak because they have a right to. This is truth and your response evades that truth instead of acknowledging it.

Well, given that Jackson was a trusted civil rights leader with MLK and given that he provides scholarships, leadership programs and other opportunities for young black people among others, of course he has some meaningful role among some of the black population. It doesn't, however, mean that every black person or even the majority of black people agree with everything he says and does.


You don't have to believe the truth. /shrug


You do sound like a racist. After all, you just simplified murder rates, imprisonment rates and high school completion rates to a matter of one race just being "better" than another. That is racism. Extremely disappointing from you particularly given my earlier defenses of you as poster when people insulted you. It seems, however, as if after the Zimmerman case, a lot of white posters' hostility towards blacks has really come out though.


Yeah, you're sounding more and more like a racist. "White people just do it better." Wow. And again, Limbaugh is still wildly popular. And, again, as well, black people criticize "black idiots" all the time whether or not you are aware of it. Hell, look at how much criticism dumbasses like Alan Keyes and Herman Cain got (can't wait to see how you discount that criticism). Anyway, the point I'm trying to get across you to that seems to be flying over your head is that talking about "white people" and "black people" as monolithic groups in this context is absurd. Your argument is foolish and racist.


O'Reilly isn't an idiot because he donates a lot of time and money to charity, but Jackson and Sharpton are still idiots even though they do the same in addition to having their own charities. You are clueless. Both of them have provided so many scholarships to young black men and women to help them out of situations. Both of them have outreach programs geared towards getting black youth away from violence, drugs, et al.. But why doesn't that count for them? Because they're black? Because you're ignorant?


SO MUCH DELUSION AND DEFLECTION. Dude, you've got racism all over your posts and you don't even know it. And your definition of "idiot" is so biased, but you're treating it as objective and they criticizing people who don't subscribe to it.

Honestly, over the past couple of months, this forum has truly sickened me with the amount of "white people are just better" comments that have come out of the woodwork. I'm the kind of person who can take and, in fact, enjoys rough debates, but being surrounded by so much unfettered prejudice and racism is just toxic, particularly when it comes from people I had respect for. This kind of **** is beyond mere disagreements. This is sick and it's taking over the forum in a way that I'm losing the ability to tolerate.

First off, you can stop with your racist accusations. It's ridiculous and shows your blindness towards all things racial. Pointing out facts about a certain race is not racist. On a personal level, I was nominated, not appointed, as the Equal Opportunity Representative for my unit by over 140 Marines. Apparently they believe I treat them fairly regardless of the color of their skin or religious preference. To say I'm racist is laughable. You can feel disappointed that you took up for me with other users if you like. I appreciate the gesture and believe you have misunderstood my point. If you still believe I'm a racist, so be it. I could care less.

The fact of the matter is this. You want to avoid the FACT that white people are more successful and less likely (per capita) to be a criminal. I've never said, and I'd like to see you find it, EVERY black person is a criminal or failure. I've never said that. What I have said is that black people are more likely that whites to be those things. I think, unlike you, that this case has brought more truth to the forefront than anything. The truth is that despite our government's, black leader's, and many other's efforts, the black race continues to falter. People such as Sharpton and to a lesser extent Jackson would have you believe that is because of white people. In the 60's? Yes. Now? No way. Now it is a problem among the black race and they have no good suggestions on how to fix it. Their men continue to impregnate and leave their women. Their men continue to commit crimes at an astronomical rate. They continue, as a whole, to be out performed by whites in this country on almost every level. I have never said we should treat black people with a different set of rights. I've never said we should hold them to a separate standard. What I am saying is that they need to get their act together and stop looking for someone to blame every time something goes wrong.

Finally, pointing to O'Reilly's charitable contributions was simply a way to show that he isn't the blow hard 1 percenter most would have you believe he is. You conveniently ignored that I said other positive things about him besides that.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You and your innuendo.

Yes, actually, it does mean that he can not publicly reprimand someone elses kids for what HE considers socially unacceptable behavior. Adults are welcome to share some wisdom, help a child if he is in physical danger but I would never want someone else to decide what my kids should and should not be reprimanded for, that's the parents job. And adults are not people of authority with kids. They are people of authority when they are in positions of authority.

There's no innuendo about it. You think male adolescents being little turds is acceptable behavior and the only reason Math reprimanded these particular kids is because they are black. That's about all I can make of your arguments.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Not being able to find a decent job causes poverty. Having a bad attitude makes it harder to find a job.

Makes sense

 

[Hypersonic]

Why do you guys (since we're generalizing) allow idiots like those two to speak for you? I don't see any other black leaders coming forth with an opposing opinion that are even remotely supported by the majority of the black race. For every black person like you, who seems to not like the way Jackson and "leaders" of his ilk do things, there appears to be 9 black people who are all over playing the victim card right along with him. White people have their idiots too, no doubt. However, you don't see us letting our idiots speak for all of us. The idiots of the white race are generally screamed down by the rational masses eventually.

Maybe you need to re-read my post. I clearly and undeniably said exactly what you just said:

This above is the same diatribe they use with Muslims.

"Why aren't there Muslims speaking against their violent bretheren?"

Just because you don't see the critics on television doesn't mean they don't exist. I just said in the comment you just quoted that both these men don't speak for me, but I suppose you would prefer a more affluent and esteemed blavk person to go on CNN to be the official spokesperson against Jackson and Sharpton.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

There's no innuendo about it. You think male adolescents being little turds is acceptable behavior and the only reason Math reprimanded these particular kids is because they are black. That's about all I can make of your arguments.

Well it is utterly inaccurate, so you tell me....why it that?

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Well it is utterly inaccurate, so you tell me....why it that?

You are offended that he passed judgement on their behavior and their potential because they were black. Yes?

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

As for you last bit, that is an entirely different conversation than the one that was offered up for discussion through this story.

I thought I should point out:

Wanting to play basketball in a respectful atmosphere, I saw this as an opportunity to teach some teens the same points Bill O'Reilly has been trying to get across this past week about this culture. The kid clearly sees nothing wrong with disrespectful behavior. What more can I do to straighten out black youth besides adopting?

The conversation was offered up explicitly and you've studiously avoided it.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I thought I should point out:



The conversation was offered up explicitly and you've studiously avoided it.

LOL @ "teach something about this culture."

I wonder what culture is this

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I thought I should point out:



The conversation was offered up explicitly and you've studiously avoided it.

I think this supports my point. He makes the distinction about "black" youth not just young men.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

LOL @ "teach something about this culture."

I wonder what culture is this

I rarely watch Bill O'Reilly, so I can't say for sure. I'm assuming he's referring to the culture that's responsible for the crime statistics. What culture do you think he's referring to?

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I rarely watch Bill O'Reilly, so I can't say for sure. I'm assuming he's referring to the culture that's responsible for the crime statistics. What culture do you think he's referring to?

And what culture is responsible? He is clearly referring to black culture. You can't seriously think O'Reilly was referring to anything else...can you?

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I think this supports my point. He makes the distinction about "black" youth not just young men.

Have you completely ignored the statistics which show blacks have the worst GPA, suspension and graduation rates, unemployment rate, etc.? Of course I made the distinction that they were black. I'm trying to help you and the black community get it through your heads what the main causes of having the worst statistics are. If you look a little more carefully at your attempt to weasel out and say "well there are teens of other races who act that way too", you'll find that's those who do such represent smaller portions of their respective races. For those who want to use the excuse of difference in quality of school, Asians come out on top with a non-negligible gap over whites. However, Asians certainly aren't going to better schools than whites. It doesn't take a genius to spot the difference in distribution of how much the value of education and respect are emphasized in families when broken down by race and culture. Apply some statistics and logic to this issue to identify keys to success and failure.

Your approach towards this issue is only guiding them towards the following:

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Have you completely ignored the statistics which show blacks have the worst GPA, suspension and graduation rates, unemployment rate, etc.? Of course I made the distinction that they were black. I'm trying to help you and the black community get it through your heads what the main causes of having the worst statistics are. If you look a little more carefully at your attempt to weasel out and say "well there are teens of other races who act that way too", you'll find that's those who do such represent smaller portions of their respective races. For those who want to use the excuse of difference in quality of school, Asians come out on top with a non-negligible gap over whites. However, Asians certainly aren't going to better schools than whites. It doesn't take a genius to spot the difference in distribution of how much the value of education and respect are emphasized in families when broken down by race and culture. Apply some statistics and logic to this issue to identify keys to success and failure.

Your approach towards this issue is only guiding them towards the following:
View attachment 67151984

You have absolutely no understanding of my approach. You listen through the very dirty filter of what you have already decided I am about and when you say back to me what you have decided I believe or even what I am stating I am left wondering.....WHO is he talking about. I suggest you learn to listen with an open mind unless you want to stay exactly where you are forever.

Plus, you are the one who is trying to weasel out of the racist elements of your story and turn your little adventure into something noble. Snap out of it.