The next Zimmerman (almost)[W:65]

[KevinKohler]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

:lol: and you think that bitching at them for leaving some sugar packets on the ground will miraculously fix these problems?

Is that in the "It's so damned crazy it just might work" school of thought?

Works better than doing nothing.

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Your response really doesn't directly address or even really acknowledge my points.

Yes it does. You're just not realizing it.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Yes it does. You're just not realizing it.

Is that an effort at humor

 

[MarineTpartier]

Why do you guys (and I'm using a racial generalization here based on white respondents of this forum) keep using Jesse Jackson and Al sharpton as if they speak for the entire black community? They don't. They don't speak for me. They don't speak for the black student union at my university, nor do they speak for the blacks down the street from me. I've never seen these two men in my life so please stop with the mentioning of Jesse and Sharpton as if they are representatives of the black community.

Why do you guys (since we're generalizing) allow idiots like those two to speak for you? I don't see any other black leaders coming forth with an opposing opinion that are even remotely supported by the majority of the black race. For every black person like you, who seems to not like the way Jackson and "leaders" of his ilk do things, there appears to be 9 black people who are all over playing the victim card right along with him. White people have their idiots too, no doubt. However, you don't see us letting our idiots speak for all of us. The idiots of the white race are generally screamed down by the rational masses eventually.

As for being seen as the enemy this is the media portrayal based on recent events, and is not a realistic representative of what is going on "in the streets." But if it makes you sleep better you can keep thinking this way.

Maybe you need to re-read my post. I clearly and undeniably said exactly what you just said:

However, if you listen to the hatemongers of the world; your Sharptons and Jacksons, then you get a whole different picture. In turn, idiots like the ones who have said those things on this thread, buy into the crap those guys and the media are selling and you get some sort of official race barometer.

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Is that an effort at humor

Nobodies laughing, so, no.

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Works better than doing nothing.

Why do you think that the only options are "Get in a pissing contest" and "meekly walk away"?

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Why do you think that the only options are "Get in a pissing contest" and "meekly walk away"?

They were pissing on the basketball court?

I don't see it as him trying to out do one of those kids. I saw them doing something socially unacceptable (littering) and got on their ass about it. Do feel free to point out the fault in that, by all means.

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

They were pissing on the basketball court?

I don't see it as him trying to out do one of those kids. I saw them doing something socially unacceptable (littering) and got on their ass about it. Do feel free to point out the fault in that, by all means.

You're seeing the same thing as me, you're just failing to see how that approach is getting into a pissing contest with some kids.

It starts from this arrogant assumption: "I'm the person of authority in this situation and I deserve respect from others".

Anyone who goes through life thinking that will always experience difficulties when reality ****s all over their delusion of supremacy.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Funny. I kind of respect it in a weird way.

I feel like I have said this in just about every way I possibly can, but WTH , one more try.

Let's say you are from the south so I decide you are a dumb hick, or you are pretty woman so I decide you are empty headed bitch, or you are a younger man so I decide you have nothing of value to say. These are comparatively trivial examples but I hope they help to illustrate the point. You burden these people with your assumptions about the capabilities about their character etc, now they are tasked with convincing you that you are mistaken about them. Is this okay with you? Or is it better that we hold people responsible for who they actually are rather then who we, with very little evidence, decidethey are. Do you agree that this is something we should try to avoid doing to one another?

I agree we should try to avoid doing this to one another. It's one of the reasons I'm persisting with you...

On a much larger and more impactful scale this is what Math is doing to these kids.

You burden these people with your assumptions about the capabilities about their character etc, now they are tasked with convincing you that you are mistaken about them.

Do you have evidence to support this conclusion, or are you doing what you're saying we should try to avoid?

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Your response really doesn't directly address or even really acknowledge my points.

Step back from your judgement and read it again. Your points are not valid because they are based on your faulty assumptions--namely that he assumed these kids were bad kids and that they were destined to live in the ghetto because they were black. There was no judgement passed on their capabilities, potential, or even their character. For that matter, if he viewed them the way you say he viewed them, why would he bother trying to correct them? That would be completely irrational.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You're seeing the same thing as me, you're just failing to see how that approach is getting into a pissing contest with some kids.

It starts from this arrogant assumption: "I'm the person of authority in this situation and I deserve respect from others".

Anyone who goes through life thinking that will always experience difficulties when reality ****s all over their delusion of supremacy.

Truth. And that attitude is definitely not going to go well when you're dealing with teenagers. Taking a position of unearned authority with a teen will not end well most of the time.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Why do you guys (since we're generalizing) allow idiots like those two to speak for you?

Nobody allows Jackson and Sharpton to do anything. They speak because they have the right to.

I don't see any other black leaders coming forth with an opposing opinion that are even remotely supported by the majority of the black race.

I find it odd that you seem to think you know what ideas are "supported by the majority of the black race" when you don't even seem to know about the diverse opinions black Americans have about Jackson and Sharpton.

For every black person like you, who seems to not like the way Jackson and "leaders" of his ilk do things, there appears to be 9 black people who are all over playing the victim card right along with him.

I don't like Jackson, but he doesn't "play the victim card."

White people have their idiots too, no doubt. However, you don't see us letting our idiots speak for all of us. The idiots of the white race are generally screamed down by the rational masses eventually.

Ah, so white people are just better at dealing with "their idiots" than blacks are. Tell me, MTP, what else are white people just better at? Funnily enough, though, an awful lot of white people seem to like to Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh so your comment is erroneous anyway.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I agree we should try to avoid doing this to one another. It's one of the reasons I'm persisting with you...


Do you have evidence to support this conclusion, or are you doing what you're saying we should try to avoid?

I am sharing my opinion of how he handled an incident he put up for display and comment. I have stated several times in my comments that I am not labeling him a racist but that I am stating how I perceive his behavior. The evidence, at this juncture, that supports my opinions is his story written in his words. How he stated he he behaved and why in this specific incident. In addition, I am asking him questions and providing him an opportunity to share some more information that would alter my opinions. Which he has yet to do. So no, I would not say I am doing the same thing.

 

[Mach]

An adult attempting to "parent" teens that are not their own children? Surely that will go over well!
Mathematician, not sure why people doubt the general story, craziness.

It's like defensive driving. Parenting on the road is dangerous and solves nothing. Cutting someone off and yelling at them, because they intentionally cut you off, for example, is a needless escalation and is dangerous for everyone involved. As such, it's better to resume driving and foget about it.

Teens especially though, they are (I think literally when we talk about evolutionary adaptation) programmed to challenge authority. And in a situation like you describe, they are as free to disrespect you as much as anything else. They may have even taken your bag and thrown it somewhere just to tick you off, it's a prank. Could it have escalated beyond that? Maybe, but you'd have been ethically at fault IMO for that. Legally? Maybe not, but I am sure like most of the reasonable posters here, we do not use laws from our government as the basis for morality and ethics.

I can imagine that if you'd have made them laugh instead, and had joked around with them, you may have had a better time. Them too. Just a thought.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I am sharing my opinion of how he handled an incident he put up for display and comment. I have stated several times in my comments that I am not labeling him a racist but that I am stating how I perceive his behavior. The evidence, at this juncture, that supports my opinions is his story written in his words. How he stated he he behaved and why in this specific incident. In addition, I am asking him questions and providing him an opportunity to share some more information that would alter my opinions. Which he has yet to do. So no, I would not say I am doing the same thing.

Let's say you are from the south so I decide you are a dumb hick, or you are pretty woman so I decide you are empty headed bitch, or you are a younger man so I decide you have nothing of value to say. These are comparatively trivial examples but I hope they help to illustrate the point. You burden these people with your assumptions about the capabilities about their character etc, now they are tasked with convincing you that you are mistaken about them....this is what Math is doing to these kids.

I'm aware you are stating your opinion. Nothing wrong with that. However, you perceive his behavior to be racist, not because he corrected the kids, but because you think he would treat a white kid differently. That's you burdening him with your assumptions and now he's tasked with convincing you that you're mistaken.

Why can't we have a discussion about the reality that black kids are more likely to end up in the system, the reasons for that reality, and what we think we should do about it without someone assuming we're racist?

 

[Tucker Case]

An adult attempting to "parent" teens that are not their own children? Surely that will go over well!
Mathematician, not sure why people doubt the general story, craziness.

It's like defensive driving. Parenting on the road is dangerous and solves nothing. Cutting someone off and yelling at them, because they intentionally cut you off, for example, is a needless escalation and is dangerous for everyone involved. As such, it's better to resume driving and foget about it.

Teens especially though, they are (I think literally when we talk about evolutionary adaptation) programmed to challenge authority. And in a situation like you describe, they are as free to disrespect you as much as anything else. They may have even taken your bag and thrown it somewhere just to tick you off, it's a prank. Could it have escalated beyond that? Maybe, but you'd have been ethically at fault IMO for that. Legally? Maybe not, but I am sure like most of the reasonable posters here, we do not use laws from our government as the basis for morality and ethics.

I can imagine that if you'd have made them laugh instead, and had joked around with them, you may have had a better time. Them too. Just a thought.

I can only "like" it once, but that's just not enough. The part in bold is the strategy I have used, repeatedly, when working with troubled teens. It's incredibly effective.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Step back from your judgement and read it again. Your points are not valid because they are based on your faulty assumptions--namely that he assumed these kids were bad kids and that they were destined to live in the ghetto because they were black. There was no judgement passed on their capabilities, potential, or even their character. For that matter, if he viewed them the way you say he viewed them, why would he bother trying to correct them? That would be completely irrational.

I am not making assumptions about his character or his fate or who the hell raised him etc., I am giving my opinion about his actions, that he himself is sharing, specifically. I am working with what is known to me, directly from him, only and making no judgments past that. Here on the other hand is one example from Maths’ story -

“I told him that everything about his behavior is going to make him destined to live in the ghetto if he keeps it up”

He wasn’t playing ball in the ghetto so what makes him think that because this kid littered he would be stuck there? Maybe he will end up stuck in a track home in the suburbs with a dead end job he hates like everyone else. Is that based purely on the fact that he dropped some sugar packets on the ground? If so then I have passed a lot of people on the freeway that are ghetto bound. Math implies that if this kid doesn’t straighten up he has only one destiny that awaits him…..ghetto. If he has said, you might not have the success in life you would like if you don’t blah blah blah. That would have been different.

You say you want to understand my perspective but you respond to my posts as if your mission is to shoot holes in it instead. If you want to understand it then ask some questions instead.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I am not making assumptions about his character or his fate or who the hell raised him etc., I am giving my opinion about his actions, that he himself is sharing, specifically. I am working with what is known to me, directly from him, only and making no judgments past that. Here on the other hand is one example from Maths’ story -

“I told him that everything about his behavior is going to make him destined to live in the ghetto if he keeps it up”

He wasn’t playing ball in the ghetto so what makes him think that because this kid littered he would be stuck there? Maybe he will end up stuck in a track home in the suburbs with a dead end job he hates like everyone else. Is that based purely on the fact that he dropped some sugar packets on the ground? If so then I have passed a lot of people on the freeway that are ghetto bound. Math implies that if this kid doesn’t straighten up he has only one destiny that awaits him…..ghetto. If he has said, you might not have the success in life you would like if you don’t blah blah blah. That would have been different.

You say you want to understand my perspective but you respond to my posts as if your mission is to shoot holes in it instead. If you want to understand it then ask some questions instead.

Ask questions?My mission in conversing with you is not to shoot holes in your perspective. I did ask specifically why you think he would treat a white kid differently, because I don't think he would. You point out that he used the term "ghetto", which could certainly be interpreted as having racial connotations, but it's only relevant if you think he wouldn't say something similar to a white kid. Reference post #'s 255, 260, 262, 272, 383, 409, and 410 for various threads of the same question, which you have yet to answer.

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Why do you think that the only options are "Get in a pissing contest" and "meekly walk away"?

Why do you think an adult has to say "pretty please" to a minor, and do you seriously think that would have worked?

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You're seeing the same thing as me, you're just failing to see how that approach is getting into a pissing contest with some kids.

It starts from this arrogant assumption: "I'm the person of authority in this situation and I deserve respect from others".

Anyone who goes through life thinking that will always experience difficulties when reality ****s all over their delusion of supremacy.

WTF happened to respecting your elders?

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Why do you think an adult has to say "pretty please" to a minor, and do you seriously think that would have worked?

Does it make it easier for you to justify your childish behaviors by pretending the only other options available were absurd?

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

WTF happened to respecting your elders?

You think not dying is a reason to get respect? How entitled of you.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I'm aware you are stating your opinion. Nothing wrong with that. However, you perceive his behavior to be racist, not because he corrected the kids, but because you think he would treat a white kid differently. That's you burdening him with your assumptions and now he's tasked with convincing you that you're mistaken.

Why can't we have a discussion about the reality that black kids are more likely to end up in the system, the reasons for that reality, and what we think we should do about it without someone assuming we're racist?

I think I give up. We're just klunking our heads together now, saying the same things over and over. It's gotten a little silly.

As for you last bit, that is an entirely different conversation than the one that was offered up for discussion through this story.

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You're seeing the same thing as me, you're just failing to see how that approach is getting into a pissing contest with some kids.

It starts from this arrogant assumption: "I'm the person of authority in this situation and I deserve respect from others".

Anyone who goes through life thinking that will always experience difficulties when reality ****s all over their delusion of supremacy.

Adults ARE people of authority when dealing with kids. Just because he's not their parent doesn't mean he can't reprimand them for socially unacceptable behavior.

As the saying goes, it takes a village.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Adults ARE people of authority when dealing with kids. Just because he's not their parent doesn't mean he can't reprimand them for socially unacceptable behavior.

As the saying goes, it takes a village.

Yes, actually, it does mean that he can not publicly reprimand someone elses kids for what HE considers socially unacceptable behavior. Adults are welcome to share some wisdom, help a child if he is in physical danger but I would never want someone else to decide what my kids should and should not be reprimanded for, that's the parents job. And adults are not people of authority with kids. They are people of authority when they are in positions of authority.