The next Zimmerman (almost)[W:65]

[head of joaquin]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

The OP simply described a typical confrontation between two primate males trying to establish "alpha" status in a specific situation.

Contrary to popular opinion, humans aren't that different from other primates in their behaviors.

Sadly true. But that's all the more reason to oppose biological explanations and rationalizations of social interactions, and apply reason and notions of duty and civil society. Conservatism is often remiss in this regard.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

What I meant was I personally feel like we owe the effort to one another but you have the right to throw your hands up and walk away if you cannot get there; sometimes you are forced to agree to disagree.

You know, oddly enough, I have considered this. I really do have an uncanny capacity for objectivity. I appreciate your point here but no, it’s not what I do. I have had several instances outside of what is commented on here, where I could clearly see the guilt and responsibility of the person of color involved in the incident and it’s really not difficult for me to do. Believe me or don’t that’s up to you. I’m very pragmatic, not a bleeding heart. I am very compassionate, but compassion that only serves to make you feel like the good guy, and doesn't serve the person you are feeling it for is ultimately very selfish.

In this instance, I believe you see ME as being in denial because you aren't being objective enough or maybe you don’t want to recognize the racism that permeates your own thinking. I get this, because until I was willing to see it in myself I did not see it in others. It is a difficult thing to admit to. I don’t feel guilty about it; I have to extend understanding to myself as well as others. We are kind of a victim of our own history when it comes to this thinking; it was handed over to us without our consent or awareness. So you see, I have nothing to feel guilty about. But I do have an obligation to, just like any other injustice, call it out when I see it.

In this instance, we are going to have to agree to disagree. You think you are viewing scenarios objectively, but like you said, it's a difficult thing to recognize in yourself. If you didn't hold black youths to a different, lower standard, I don't believe we would be having this discussion.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

In this instance, we are going to have to agree to disagree. You think you are viewing scenarios objectively, but like you said, it's a difficult thing to reconize in yourself. If you didn't hold black youths to a different, lower standard, I don't believe we would be having this discussion.

But here is the thing. I have been around teen boys for years. What he says they did is no different than many many teen boys (white teen boys) I have dealt with. So to add to his commentary that these are black kids seems irrelevant to anyone other than him or others who share his views. Without this undercurrent of prejudgment that he holds in reserve for "black" youth it is utterly irrelevant. It only has context in HIS mind so to others who do not share his preconceptions and judgment it appears out of place and therefore prejudicial.

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Sadly true. But that's all the more reason to oppose biological explanations and rationalizations of social interactions, and apply reason and notions of duty and civil society. Conservatism is often remiss in this regard.

There's nothing "sad" about it, as those biological responses did help us achieve our current status as apex animals. It's part of being a social animal, and it helps design the hierarchy.

It's only really a "problem" behavior in the absence of a real alpha. In humans (as well as some other great apes), true alphas use reason and alliances rather than aggression to assert their dominance. In those species, threat posturing and aggression is more often employed by betas pretending to be alphas than by alphas themselves. With higher-order intellects, humans can employ things like humor and intelligence to exert their dominance over the subordinate males in a group.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

But here is the thing. I have been around teen boys for years. What he says they did is no different than many many teen boys (white teen boys) I have dealt with. So to add to his commentary that these are black kids seems irrelevant to anyone other than him or others who share his views. Without this undercurrent of prejudgment that he holds in reserve for "black" youth it is utterly irrelevant. It only has context in HIS mind so to others who do not share his preconceptions and judgment it appears out of place and therefore prejudicial.

The fact that white teen boys sometimes act this way is only relevant in that it proves my point to you. You're willing to jump all over math because he made it a point to correct the behavior, even though you would never let it slide uncorrected if you saw your boys acting that way. You may, and probably do, disagree with the tact that he took in correcting them, but I don't believe you are seeing things clearly if you think he would have treated the kid in any other way had the kid been white, brown, black, or pink with purple polka dots. That's probably more of a mom vs dad thing, or maybe simply an old-fashioned thing, but I jump all over my kids' cases when they are openly rude or mean. Are you going to accuse me of being harsh with my kids because they're black?

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

The fact that white teen boys sometimes act this way is only relevant in that it proves my point to you. You're willing to jump all over math because he made it a point to correct the behavior, even though you would never let it slide uncorrected if you saw your boys acting that way. You may, and probably do, disagree with the tact that he took in correcting them, but I don't believe you are seeing things clearly if you think he would have treated the kid in any other way had the kid been white, brown, black, or pink with purple polka dots. That's probably more of a mom vs dad thing, or maybe simply an old-fashioned thing, but I jump all over my kids' cases when they are openly rude or mean. Are you going to accuse me of being harsh with my kids because they're black?

Why did he mention that they were black kids and why did he say that we as "almost" the next Zimmerman? What is the relevance?

 

[Mathematician]

You didn't do that, though. You started off at an elevated state, as evidenced by your choice to use a "stern voice" with them. A "stern voice" is that of command, and commanding others is an act of verbal aggression. Assertiveness would have been very effective. It's a shame you didn't employ that tactic.

IMO, and obviously in the eyes of half of the other posters, I did keep my cool. If you look at my statement word-for-word, do you honestly think the sheer fact that I used a stern tone is losing my cool? The buddy-buddy tone is for a kid young enough that they reasonably don't know any better.

 

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I just don't see why you'd assume Mathematician is telling a tall tale.

Because he's not a liberal.

 

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

So what I'm not getting is how a story about an arrogant, self-righteous dude trying to tell an arrogant, angry teenager what to do as though he was the kid's father relates to Zimmerman in any way? What am I missing? Why is this about race, rather than being about two people who were both acting like assholes?

Pretty much everything it seems.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Why did he mention that they were black kids and why did he say that we as "almost" the next Zimmerman? What is the relevance?

Do you think his purpose in posting the story was to run down black people? Has it occurred to you that the conversation we're having about racial inequality is a good thing for both of us?

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Do you think his purpose in posting the story was to run down black people? Has it occurred to you that the conversation we're having about racial inequality is a good thing for both of us?

It is good, I agree.

So, can you answer that question for me?

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

It is good, I agree.

So, can you answer that question for me?

You mean this one?

Why did he mention that they were black kids and why did he say that we as "almost" the next Zimmerman? What is the relevance?

If so, the kids brought up race in their conversation, twice that he mentioned. The subject of the thread was pretty obviously to draw attention to the thread so that you and I would come in here and talk about it. Or do you think it was actually to demean black people in general and run down Trayvon Martin specifically?

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You mean this one?



If so, the kids brought up race in their conversation, twice that he mentioned. The subject of the thread was pretty obviously to draw attention to the thread so that you and I would come in here and talk about it. Or do you think it was actually to demean black people in general and run down Trayvon Martin specifically?

You are being defensive. Look at the situation objectively and tell me regardless of what they may have said once the exchange started. Why did he mention race? Why not just say something about how poorly behaved young people are today?

 

[repeter]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You are being defensive. Look at the situation objectively and tell me regardless of what they may have said once the exchange started. Why did he mention race? Why not just say something about how poorly behaved young people are today?

You're getting caught up in the specifics and failing to see the implication and meaning of the story. I can't tell you what Mathematician's personal thoughts were, but for you to suggest his actions were wrong simply because of what you think to be his prejudices is wrong.

You seem to want to say that he was wrong in asking the kid to abate his illegal activity because you think he was prejudiced, and that the kid's action, which was clearly and indubitably disrespectful, were somehow made acceptable because of that.

Even in a worst case scenario, where we assume Mathematician is a complete racist (purely hypothetical, I doubt anyone would call him anything like that), his actions were respectful and proper.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You're getting caught up in the specifics and failing to see the implication and meaning of the story. I can't tell you what Mathematician's personal thoughts were, but for you to suggest his actions were wrong simply because of what you think to be his prejudices is wrong.

You seem to want to say that he was wrong in asking the kid to abate his illegal activity because you think he was prejudiced, and that the kid's action, which was clearly and indubitably disrespectful, were somehow made acceptable because of that.

Even in a worst case scenario, where we assume Mathematician is a complete racist (purely hypothetical, I doubt anyone would call him anything like that), his actions were respectful and proper.

No one is answering a very simple question. How was race a factor. Why was it referenced in the title of the thread and why was it mentioned in the beginning of the story. How is it relevant?

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I'm with opendebate on this one.

Mathematician, what does your story have to do with Zimmerman?

Also, how does them being black have to do with their behavior from what you've encountered?

 

[poweRob]

So I'm downtown at the basketball court just shooting around when a couple of black teens (16 or 17) I've seen a few times there arrive. Interestingly, their drink of choice was a cup of water from Starbucks loaded with packets of sugar they took. I mention the drink, because the first thing one does before wanting to shoot with me is pour four more packets of sugar into his drink and drop the empty packets right in the middle of the court. Before shooting again, I said to him with a stern tone "Excuse me, are you going to pick up your trash? There is a trash can right by where you entered." He picked up a few pieces, not quite all, crumpled them up and then I saw him drop it on the edge of the court. While this was incomplete, he at least got the message that I was annoyed by his sense of entitlement to litter.

Two minutes later he suggests playing a game called 50, which I accepted since I wanted to burn a few calories. Throughout two games, the same guy who was littering was spewing disrespectful remarks continuously, including insults every time I scored and perverted remarks at just about every female who was walking by and under the age of 40. After I won the first game, he takes out his cell phone with some pocket speakers, turns on some (c)rap thug music and says he's going to win the next game.

Getting increasingly annoyed at his disrespectful behavior, I picked up my game and smacked the ball pretty hard on a couple of blocks in the second game. With an attitude, he cries foul and says "nigga, cool yo azz." That's when I went off and told the kid that if he wants respect then he needs to show it. Avoiding profanity, I told him that everything about his behavior is going to make him destined to live in the ghetto if he keeps it up, recapping what he had done wrong. He says "I don't have to listen to this ****" and proceeds to leave. I told him to take his Starbucks cup with him, for which he replies "if you so worried about it then you do something about it."

Thinking it's over, I resume shooting around, only to have him dropkick my basketball as soon as I miss. Luckily, it stayed within the fence, so I walked over to get it. I noticed the other guy then wandering towards where my bag was, despite the fact that they were already by the exit, thus I walk over towards my bag as well. Low and behold, he immediately starts accusing me of only going towards my bag because he's black. I asked why in the heck he expected my to trust them near my things when his buddy had just attempted to punt my ball as far as he could. I resumed telling them their behavior was going to get them into trouble when the main punk then approaches wanting to fight.

While trying to get in my face and start a fight, he hilariously accuses me of trying to initiate contact for having my arm extended as I'm backing away. I warned him that if he threw any punches that I'd make sure he was arrested, especially since I didn't want any legal issues for an altercation with a minor. Then some teen girl he knew who was in the area tells him to cut it out. He tells me "you lucky she here" to which I reply "wow, such a gentleman."

Right after all this crap was over, I was thanking God I didn't become the next Zimmerman. Fortunately, had the situation escalated, I would have had an even more solid defense than Zimmerman. It turns out, in the adjacent playground, a father had been recording the event on his phone, which easily would have shown that I made attempts to avoid physical confrontation. Wanting to play basketball in a respectful atmosphere, I saw this as an opportunity to teach some teens the same points Bill O'Reilly has been trying to get across this past week about this culture. The kid clearly sees nothing wrong with disrespectful behavior. What more can I do to straighten out black youth besides adopting?

Wow. You must be a saint. I like how you made absolutely sure that race in your story is so vitally important... and how it was also so important to make sure that the black guy speak is phonetically written in ebonics while you are so poised and composed as if a refined British gentleman. Then of course there was HIM calling YOU "nigga". It's so authentic.

I'll file this under fiction because even if the whole gist of the story could actually be somewhat true, the fact that you are a central component of the story as well as the narrator of said story and not so surprisingly the unscathed hero of that story while the other guy is clearly all bad... yeah... file it under fiction or truth stretched so far it looks like fiction.

 

[repeter]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

No one is answering a very simple question. How was race a factor. Why was it referenced in the title of the thread and why was it mentioned in the beginning of the story. How is it relevant?

The entire point of the post you responded to was that your question is irrelevant, and race is irrelevant in the evaluation that the kid was behaving rudely, so stop trying to make​ race relevant.

You're still trying to attack his credibility, but you've failed to notice his credibility is irrelevant when analyzing the scenario.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

The entire point of the post you responded to was that your question is irrelevant, and race is irrelevant in the evaluation that the kid was behaving rudely, so stop trying to make​ race relevant.

You're still trying to attack his credibility, but you've failed to notice his credibility is irrelevant when analyzing the scenario.

What makes you think I am attacking his credibility? I haven't challenged whether his story is true or not. Explain that to me.

 

[repeter]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

What makes you think I am attacking his credibility? I haven't challenged whether his story is true or not. Explain that to me.

I would appreciate it if you'd stop analyzing the story from a race perspective, because the obvious implication is at least latent racism. You have, at least once in this thread, questioned whether Mathematician was correct in his actions, because you made that analysis.

Quite clearly, if you establish racism, questions of his account become valid. Furthermore, your questioning of race has put a skewed lens on the discussion of what to do about kids who act like that, by applying the race element. If you'll note in all of my posts in that discussion, and most of those posts in general, they were focused on societal factors, which effect all kids who are exposed to certain stimuli.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I would appreciate it if you'd stop analyzing the story from a race perspective, because the obvious implication is at least latent racism. You have, at least once in this thread, questioned whether Mathematician was correct in his actions, because you made that analysis.

Quite clearly, if you establish racism, questions of his account become valid. Furthermore, your questioning of race has put a skewed lens on the discussion of what to do about kids who act like that, by applying the race element. If you'll note in all of my posts in that discussion, and most of those posts in general, they were focused on societal factors, which effect all kids who are exposed to certain stimuli.

He made it about race, not me.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You are being defensive. Look at the situation objectively and tell me regardless of what they may have said once the exchange started. Why did he mention race? Why not just say something about how poorly behaved young people are today?

You're right, I am being defensive. You're assigning negative motivation to Math with no justification and I think you're being unfair and unreasonable. You've posted many times about the problems in the black community. Why do you assume someone has a racist motivation when they want to talk about a specific example? Inner city education is terrible because too many of the adults who run it write this kind of garbage off as normal adolescent male behavior. Kids of all colors have behavioral and attitude problems, but I believe you've posted statistics that show the problem is much more prevalent in the black community. That might have something to do with his decision to include the race of the kids in the discussion? Maybe the fact that the kids, themselves, injected it into the conversation. Or it could be that he just hates black people. Which is more logical to you?

 

[repeter]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

He made it about race, not me.

I don't think I can break it down anymore then I already did. Let me try one more time.

His opinion of race is entirely irrelevant to a discussion concerning how to improve society. Yes, he used the word "black" as an adjective. Let it go

Talking about Mathematician's opinion of race is a waste of time, and pointless.

 

[Knowledge=power]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Objective evidence?

What's not objective about rap music videos being negative?

The lyrics, the lifestyle they portray, etc.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I don't think I can break it down anymore then I already did. Let me try one more time.

His opinion of race is entirely irrelevant to a discussion concerning how to improve society. Yes, he used the word "black" as an adjective. Let it go

Talking about Mathematician's opinion of race is a waste of time, and pointless.

But given the recent trend of threads regarding race I wouldn't see opendebate's acknowledgment of the "why you mention that..." an irrelevant inquiry.

In the following the bold is what makes me question the story:


"So I'm downtown at the basketball court just shooting around when a couple of black teens (16 or 17) I've seen a few times there arrive. Interestingly, their drink of choice was a cup of water from Starbucks loaded with packets of sugar they took. I mention the drink, because the first thing one does before wanting to shoot with me is pour four more packets of sugar into his drink and drop the empty packets right in the middle of the court. Before shooting again, I said to him with a stern tone "Excuse me, are you going to pick up your trash? There is a trash can right by where you entered." He picked up a few pieces, not quite all, crumpled them up and then I saw him drop it on the edge of the court. While this was incomplete, he at least got the message that I was annoyed by his sense of entitlement to litter.

Two minutes later he suggests playing a game called 50, which I accepted since I wanted to burn a few calories. Throughout two games, the same guy who was littering was spewing disrespectful remarks continuously, including insults every time I scored and perverted remarks at just about every female who was walking by and under the age of 40. After I won the first game, he takes out his cell phone with some pocket speakers, turns on some (c)rap thug music and says he's going to win the next game."

In the first bold he mentions about the packets of surgar "they took." Is that took, as in stolen, or took as in used in their drinks?

Last bold he mentions the genre of music as "thug music." I don't mean to be too analytical but it just makes me question the kind of attitude Mathematician is displaying here in this thread. I mean, without even identifying their race he could have easily said "these two teens (around 16-17), then referring to their music of choice as "crap thug music."

But that is not the kicker, what gets me is if you put the thug, black, them using the word "nigga" along with the title of this thread it makes me suspicious.