The next Zimmerman (almost)[W:65]

[repeter]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

this statement proves me right

Look up the definitions of the words he used to describe them. You'll find that their behavior in his account matches up to those definitions :roll:

He's not prejudiced, he's using appropriate terminology. That you don't like his word choice is a personal issue.

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

this statement proves me right

It proves I have a hatred for people who are unjustifiably disrespectful to others. The left will spin that **** into racism. :spin:

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

What you are failing to see is that you are recounting the incidents with your spin in them, painting them as innocent and noble then defending THAT version. Of course your choices will appear just when you present them this way. The first mistake here IS the suspicion, that's the very problem that started the whole conflict. It was furthered when you grasped hold of anything you could to confirm your unwarranted suspicions then you acted on them as fact. In that regard you are right, it does bare a resemblance to GZ.

How you got any of that from his story, I will never understand.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

How you got any of that from his story, I will never understand.

Okay. You have no obligation to and I appreciate your effort and civility. I see it as clear as day. Again, I don't think the OP is a racist ass. I think we are all racist, including myself to some degree. It is a difficult thing to recognize in yourself because it has become so deeply embedded in our thinking that it has become unrecognizable to us. But it is there and it was present in his story.

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

How you got any of that from his story, I will never understand.

The earth will likely stop spinning before the left stops spinning things like this into racism. As I mentioned, I've tutored several black kids in math who are respectful just within the last school year. Unfortunately, it seems like they are a minority among minorities.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I'm not sure how this relates to the Zimmerman case. You were obviously annoyed by their juvenile behavior and could have easily walked away, but you decided to have a fit over trash and vile language?

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

The earth will likely stop spinning before the left stops spinning things like this into racism. As I mentioned, I've tutored several black kids in math who are respectful just within the last school year. Unfortunately, it seems like they are a minority among minorities.

First off, maturity is an evolving trait which is learned through trial and error of life experiences and what you are taught. I always find it amazing that people often refer to mature (respectable) traits as racial. If you live in the inner city where its riddled with crime and a lot of impoverished people the likelihood you'll encounter people with bad manners and bad language runs high, but all of this refers to as my mother used to say "house training."

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I don't disagree with that statement

I disagree..

There is a difference between racially biased and having a level of racism.

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I'm not sure how this relates to the Zimmerman case. You were obviously annoyed by their juvenile behavior and could have easily walked away, but you decided to have a fit over trash and vile language?

Like I told Tucker, I'm not going to let kids make the neighborhood look like **** and drive people away from an area they want to take over by acting inappropriately. The same goes for adults who want to act that way.

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

First off, maturity is an evolving trait which is learned through trial and error of life experiences and what you are taught. I always find it amazing that people often refer to mature (respectable) traits as racial. If you live in the inner city where its riddled with crime and a lot of impoverished people the likelihood you'll encounter people with bad manners and bad language runs high, but all of this refers to as my mother used to say "house training."

Ok, if it's learned through trial and error then they can learn from an adult like myself telling them to pick up their trash or get in trouble. If you always let it slide then how in the heck are they going to learn?

Poverty doesn't excuse poor manners. In fact, you'd hope poor people would be smart enough to realize that being polite will make those better off want to help you. Acting disrespectfully only makes people like myself look down upon them.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Like I told Tucker, I'm not going to let kids make the neighborhood look like **** and drive people away from an area they want to take over by acting inappropriately. The same goes for adults who want to act that way.

But you have to pick and choose your battles. You are trying to police behavior where in some instances people can become confrontational. I wasn't there so I'm not sure how the tone of your voice was, but I think it depends on how you approach people especially if you are trying to get people to do things they normally don't do (like picking up trash). However I'm still trying to find the connection between this situation and the Zimmerman case.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Ok, if it's learned through trial and error then they can learn from an adult like myself telling them to pick up their trash or get in trouble. If you always let it slide then how in the heck are they going to learn?

Poverty doesn't excuse poor manners. In fact, you'd hope poor people would be smart enough to realize that being polite will make those better off want to help you. Acting disrespectfully only makes people like myself look down upon them.

You'd be surprised there are a lot of impoverished people who have bad manners. I tend to think the lack of manners can relate to socioeconomic status and even though it shouldn't, often times people who surround themselves with degenerate behavior tend to take on those traits themselves. If you expect people to change and listen to you, you may want to look at your approach. Most people don't take kind to commands, cause I know I wouldn't. Playing devil's advocate here, if I were these teens and me leaving trash on the ground and you being a stranger to me commanded me to pick up my trash I probably would have a negative reaction. But if your approach was more empathetic in the sense of "hey bro we are trying to keep it clean around here if you don't mind can you take your trash with you or put it in the disposal container? I'd appreciate it bro."

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Oh good grief.... nobody ever said that.

What these kids did initially was backtalk. If the kids you grew up with never did that, then you said it.

 

[Tucker Case]

Litterers deserve nothing, no respect and no leeway. One of the reasons I moved to Oregon was seeing the local police in Portland handcuff a litterer and haul him off to jail. Fine AND jail time (used to be).

String em up!

 

[Tucker Case]

If you want to let the kids be disrespectful to you and keep your little mouth shut, be my guest.

The false dichotomy that you immediately jump to as though it was real indicates a black and white mentality common to teenagers who have not yet advanced in tehir cognitive development, rather than an adult who has achieved a more complete level of cognitive development.

At no point did I argue that silence was the best approach. You seem to be of the idea that the options are "passivity" or "aggression". That's a very simplistic approach to life.

I argue that the third option, non-aggressive assertiveness, is the best option. I would not keep silent, but I also would not have escalated the situation by choosing the path of aggression. I have dealt with such situations numerous times without stupidly getting into the dick measuring contest, and it's amazingly effective.

 

[Tucker Case]

One can simultaneously be assertive and keep their cool.

You didn't do that, though. You started off at an elevated state, as evidenced by your choice to use a "stern voice" with them. A "stern voice" is that of command, and commanding others is an act of verbal aggression. Assertiveness would have been very effective. It's a shame you didn't employ that tactic.

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Like I told Tucker, I'm not going to let kids make the neighborhood look like **** and drive people away from an area they want to take over by acting inappropriately.

You can employ more effective strategies to achieve your goals, or you could continue to do what you are doing, which is not effective (as evidenced by the exchange described in the OP).

 

[Caine]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

What these kids did initially was backtalk. If the kids you grew up with never did that, then you said it.

Cussing a dude out, punting his basketball, trying to sneak over to steal some ****.

Calling him "nigga"....


That is the **** I am talking about.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Okay. You have no obligation to and I appreciate your effort and civility. I see it as clear as day. Again, I don't think the OP is a racist ass. I think we are all racist, including myself to some degree. It is a difficult thing to recognize in yourself because it has become so deeply embedded in our thinking that it has become unrecognizable to us. But it is there and it was present in his story.

I disagree. We do have an obligation to try to understand each other. That's what mutual respect is. That doesn't mean we'll ever get there, but I'm a sucker for a lost cause. I'm going to psycho-analyze you now...

Given the history and culture of African Americans and a certain amount of guilt and/or compassion you feel over their plight, you feel obligated to define a different set of "normal behaviors" for them than what you would expect of yourself because you feel like they deserve it. You have a tendency to factor race into every situation and your starting point is to assume that the black person is the victim because people are inherently racist. Every other assumption & rationalization you make follows from that point, so much so that you ignore details that challenge your perception. It explains your reaction to the Martin/Zimmerman case and it explains your reaction to Math's story.

There's always the chance that I'm way off-base, but I find it hard to believe you would not have higher expectations of yourself or your own children. Like you said above, it's a difficult thing to recognize in yourself, particularly if your motivation is pure.

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Cussing a dude out, punting his basketball, trying to sneak over to steal some ****.

Calling him "nigga"....


That is the **** I am talking about.

So, in other words, everything that came about after Mathematician escalated the exchange and began to display like an aggressive chimpanzee. Got it.

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

The OP simply described a typical confrontation between two primate males trying to establish "alpha" status in a specific situation.

Contrary to popular opinion, humans aren't that different from other primates in their behaviors.

 

[Fenton]

So I'm downtown at the basketball
court just shooting around when a couple of black teens (16 or 17) I've seen a few times there arrive. Interestingly, their drink of choice was a cup of water from Starbucks loaded with packets of sugar they took. I mention the drink, because the first thing one does before wanting to shoot with me is pour four more packets of sugar into his drink and drop the empty packets right in the middle of the court. Before shooting again, I said to him with a stern tone "Excuse me, are you going to pick up your trash? There is a trash can right by where you entered." He picked up a few pieces, not quite all, crumpled them up and then I saw him drop it on the edge of the court. While this was incomplete, he at least got the message that I was annoyed by his sense of entitlement to litter.

Two minutes later he suggests playing a game called 50, which I accepted since I wanted to burn a few calories. Throughout two games, the same guy who was littering was spewing disrespectful remarks continuously, including insults every time I scored and perverted remarks at just about every female who was walking by and under the age of 40. After I won the first game, he takes out his cell phone with some pocket speakers, turns on some (c)rap thug music and says he's going to win the next game.

Getting increasingly annoyed at his disrespectful behavior, I picked up my game and smacked the ball pretty hard on a couple of blocks in the second game. With an attitude, he cries foul and says "nigga, cool yo azz." That's when I went off and told the kid that if he wants respect then he needs to show it. Avoiding profanity, I told him that everything about his behavior is going to make him destined to live in the ghetto if he keeps it up, recapping what he had done wrong. He says "I don't have to listen to this ****" and proceeds to leave. I told him to take his Starbucks cup with him, for which he replies "if you so worried about it then you do something about it."

Thinking it's over, I resume shooting around, only to have him dropkick my basketball as soon as I miss. Luckily, it stayed within the fence, so I walked over to get it. I noticed the other guy then wandering towards where my bag was, despite the fact that they were already by the exit, thus I walk over towards my bag as well. Low and behold, he immediately starts accusing me of only going towards my bag because he's black. I asked why in the heck he expected my to trust them near my things when his buddy had just attempted to punt my ball as far as he could. I resumed telling them their behavior was going to get them into trouble when the main punk then approaches wanting to fight.

While trying to get in my face and start a fight, he hilariously accuses me of trying to initiate contact for having my arm extended as I'm backing away. I warned him that if he threw any punches that I'd make sure he was arrested, especially since I didn't want any legal issues for an altercation with a minor. Then some teen girl he knew who was in the area tells him to cut it out. He tells me "you lucky she here" to which I reply "wow, such a gentleman."

Right after all this crap was over, I was thanking God I didn't become the next Zimmerman. Fortunately, had the situation escalated, I would have had an even more solid defense than Zimmerman. It turns out, in the adjacent playground, a father had been recording the event on his phone, which easily would have shown that I made attempts to avoid physical confrontation. Wanting to play basketball in a respectful atmosphere, I saw this as an opportunity to teach some teens the same points Bill O'Reilly has been trying to get across this past week about this culture. The kid clearly sees nothing wrong with disrespectful behavior. What more can I do to straighten out black youth besides adopting?

I enjoy Basketball too and have accepted the fact that if you want to play on a outside public court your'e going to have to deal with thug idiots.

It's worth the money to get a Y membership in a good part of town.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Cussing a dude out, punting his basketball, trying to sneak over to steal some ****.

Calling him "nigga"....


That is the **** I am talking about.

Here is the mistake.

Nigga ... what do you think that means?

That was HIS mistake, he decides the guy is just gonna walk over to his bag and steal some stuff?! On what grounds? What lies behind that assumption? Why did he go there?

The OP confronted a boy, pretty pathetic example of a frail male ego if you ask me.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I disagree. We do have an obligation to try to understand each other. That's what mutual respect is. That doesn't mean we'll ever get there, but I'm a sucker for a lost cause. I'm going to psycho-analyze you now...

Given the history and culture of African Americans and a certain amount of guilt and/or compassion you feel over their plight, you feel obligated to define a different set of "normal behaviors" for them than what you would expect of yourself because you feel like they deserve it. You have a tendency to factor race into every situation and your starting point is to assume that the black person is the victim because people are inherently racist. Every other assumption & rationalization you make follows from that point, so much so that you ignore details that challenge your perception. It explains your reaction to the Martin/Zimmerman case and it explains your reaction to Math's story.

There's always the chance that I'm way off-base, but I find it hard to believe you would not have higher expectations of yourself or your own children. Like you said above, it's a difficult thing to recognize in yourself, particularly if your motivation is pure.

What I meant was I personally feel like we owe the effort to one another but you have the right to throw your hands up and walk away if you cannot get there; sometimes you are forced to agree to disagree.

You know, oddly enough, I have considered this. I really do have an uncanny capacity for objectivity. I appreciate your point here but no, it’s not what I do. I have had several instances outside of what is commented on here, where I could clearly see the guilt and responsibility of the person of color involved in the incident and it’s really not difficult for me to do. Believe me or don’t that’s up to you. I’m very pragmatic, not a bleeding heart. I am very compassionate, but compassion that only serves to make you feel like the good guy, and doesn't serve the person you are feeling it for is ultimately very selfish.

In this instance, I believe you see ME as being in denial because you aren't being objective enough or maybe you don’t want to recognize the racism that permeates your own thinking. I get this, because until I was willing to see it in myself I did not see it in others. It is a difficult thing to admit to. I don’t feel guilty about it; I have to extend understanding to myself as well as others. We are kind of a victim of our own history when it comes to this thinking; it was handed over to us without our consent or awareness. So you see, I have nothing to feel guilty about. But I do have an obligation to, just like any other injustice, call it out when I see it.

 

[head of joaquin]

Of course it is. I just find the naively nostalgic idea that children today are "worse" than they were in my day due to the media to be patently absurd. Kids have always been assholes in the eyes of "old people" since before the days of Socrates.

I agree with this completely. Any use of nostalgia in a political context is usually bad mojo.