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The Infamous Ahmadinejad "Wiped Off the Map" speech

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mbig

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I think we need a specific reference string for this piece of argumentation that finds it's way into other's strings near daily.
What did he say.
What did he mean?

The Strawman used by Iran supporters (and West/Israel haters) is that Because that translation wasn't correct, it wasn't what he meant.

So First.. where DID that translation come from? Neocons? Zionists? seeking an excuse to invade?

Wiki
"One may wonder: where did this false interpretation originate?
Who is responsible for the translation that has sparked such worldwide controversy?

The answer is surprising. The inflammatory 'wiped off the map' quote was first disseminated not by Iran's enemies, but by Iran itself.
The Islamic Republic News Agency, Iran's official propaganda arm, used this phrasing in the English version of some of their news releases covering the World Without Zionism conference.

International media including the BBC, Al Jazeera, Time magazine and countless others picked up the IRNA quote and made headlines out of it without verifying its accuracy, and rarely referring to the source. Iran's Foreign Minister soon attempted to clarify the statement, but the quote had a life of its own. Though the IRNA wording was inaccurate and misleading, the media assumed it was true, and besides, it made great copy.​
The phrase 'wiped away' can Still be seen on Mr Ahmadinejad's Presidential website....

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Link above also useful for other a'jad statements.
 
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mbig

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Second.
What Did he actually say and what did he mean?

MEMRI - Middle East Media Research Institute
[...............]

"They [ask]: 'Is it possible for us to witness a world without America and Zionism?' But you had best know that this slogan and this goal are attainable, and surely can be achieved.

[[[...]]] "'When the dear Imam [Khomeini] said that [the Shah's] regime must go, and that we demand a world without dependent governments, many people who claimed to have political and other knowledge [asked], 'Is it possible [that the Shah's regime can be toppled]?' That day, when Imam [Khomeini] began his movement, all the powers supported [the Shah's] corrupt regime [[[...]]] and said it was not possible. However, our nation stood firm, and by now we have, for 27 years, been living without a government dependent on America. Imam [Khomeni] said: 'The rule of the East [U.S.S.R.] and of the West [U.S.] should be ended.' But the weak people who saw only the tiny world near them did not believe it. Nobody believed that we would one day witness the collapse of the Eastern Imperialism [i.e. the U.S.S.R], and said it was an iron regime. But in our short lifetime we have witnessed how this regime collapsed in such a way that we must look for it in libraries, and we can find no literature about it. Imam [Khomeini] said that Saddam [Hussein] must go, and that he would be humiliated in a way that was unprecedented. And what do you see today? A man who, 10 years ago, spoke as proudly as if he would live for eternity is today chained by the feet, and is now being tried in his own country [[[...]]]
Imam [Khomeini] said:
'This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.' This sentence is very wise. The issue of Palestine is NOT an issue on which we can Compromise.
Is it possible that an [Islamic] front allows another front [i.e. country] to arise in its [own] heart? This means defeat, and he who accepts the Existence of this regime [i.e. Israel] in fact signs the defeat of the Islamic world.
In his battle against the World of Arrogance, our dear Imam [Khomeini] set the regime occupying Qods [Jerusalem] as the target of his fight. I do not doubt that the new wave which has begun in our dear Palestine and which today we are also witnessing in the Islamic world is a wave of morality which has spread all over the Islamic world.
Very soon, this stain of disgrace [i.e. Israel] will vanish from the center of the Islamic world - and this is attainable."

What does he mean that Islam/Iran Cannot accept Israel or compromise with it, and that:
"Very soon, this stain of disgrace [i.e. Israel] will vanish from the center of the Islamic world - and this is attainable."

What would make it "Attainable to get rid of this Stain of Disgrace" "Very Soon"?

Surely "Very soon" the Arabs/Iranians aren't going to get a Conventional advantage over Israel.
Surely Israel isn't going to vote itself out of existence either.

So what could he Possibly mean by "attainable" "Very Soon"?

Coupled with his oft stated claim of not giving up enrichment and in fact, accelerating it, newly discovered sites - it doesn't take alot of deduction to get his drift even if one wants to strawman the Exact translation as "he didn't say that".

And along with his Holocaust denial and other Anti-Israel statememts, there is certainly context and a Reasonable Basis for Israel feeeling threatened by and perhaps trying to stop Mahdi-Boy and his Mullah handlers from not getting the Bomb.
Perhaps a topic for later in this string, or another, Ahmadinejad's religous delusions which are surprising and troubling for a person who may have his finger on the button.
-
 
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And along with his Holocaust denial and other Anti-Israel statememts, there is certainly context and a Reasonable Basis for Israel feeeling threatened by and perhaps trying to stop Mahdi-Boy and his Mullah handlers from not getting the Bomb.

I think Israel Has a legitimate concern over Iran. But, there is possibly mitigating reasons why portions of Iran feel the need to up the inflammatory rhetoric [if thats indeed what it is]. After a flawed election, and pockets of public unrest, he needs to project himself as a 'strong' leader. And, throughout history leaders East/West have used this tactic to instill fear of a perceived enemy-to control a population.
Global proliferation is most definitely a 'global' problem' and the more successful the international community is at tackling the problem, the better.

Interesting how tyrants attract each other

Iran's Ahmadinejad in Zimbabwe to meet with Mugabe - Yahoo! News

Paul
 

bub

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Just out of curiosity, can you please link to a popular western-state newspaper source with the same subject?

find it yourself if you don't believe my source. My information is reliable.
 

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Just out of curiosity, can you please link to a popular western-state newspaper source with the same subject?

certainly
My recent comment piece explaining how Iran's president was badly misquoted when he allegedly called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" has caused a welcome little storm. The phrase has been seized on by western and Israeli hawks to re-double suspicions of the Iranian government's intentions, so it is important to get the truth of what he really said.

I took my translation - "the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" - from the indefatigable Professor Juan Cole's website where it has been for several weeks.

But it seems to be mainly thanks to the Guardian giving it prominence that the New York Times, which was one of the first papers to misquote Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, came out on Sunday with a defensive piece attempting to justify its reporter's original "wiped off the map" translation.


Lost in translation | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
 

bub

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Another article you may want to read

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_propaganda]Black propaganda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 

Apocalypse

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find it yourself if you don't believe my source. My information is reliable.
Why wouldn't I believe your words when I myself have stated that it was a mistranslation, and that the actual statement is "The Zionist regime in Jerusalem must be removed from the pages of time"?

Was simply curious as to how international sources (except the guardian which I'd never put my trust in) are referring to this translation.

Anyway, I myself see no dramatic difference between the statement and its mistranslation.
In the end of the day the Iranian tyranny calls, and keeps calling, for Israel's destruction - and that is unacceptable and would be dealt with.
 

mbig

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NO ONE matches you for 'posts'.. er... NO ONE.
You don't read links within, or even the text within.. just see a headline and post!

The OP says it is a MIStranslation and explains where it came from.
It does NOT say that's what he said.
The Second post gives the accurate translation.

UN............believable.
NUMMMMMBBBBBBINNNNGGGGGG.
Stupendous.
Yet there it is.

And no one ELSE points this out to bub Either.
DUHbatePolitics.com
-
 
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gunner

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And no one ELSE points this out to bub Either.
DUHbatePolitics.com
-

Why would you see the need, for anyone else to point out what Apoc has already highlighted?

Paul
 

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Was simply curious as to how international sources (except the guardian which I'd never put my trust in) are referring to this translation.

Trying to understand your logic here. The Guardian appears to be the first paper to give a correct translation and by this you believe it is untrustworthy?
 

bub

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Why wouldn't I believe your words when I myself have stated that it was a mistranslation, and that the actual statement is "The Zionist regime in Jerusalem must be removed from the pages of time"?

Was simply curious as to how international sources (except the guardian which I'd never put my trust in) are referring to this translation.

Anyway, I myself see no dramatic difference between the statement and its mistranslation.
In the end of the day the Iranian tyranny calls, and keeps calling, for Israel's destruction - and that is unacceptable and would be dealt with.

It makes a big difference: if you look at the context, he was clearly not calling for the destruction of Israel. He calls for a regime change, just like Reagan wanted a regime change in USSR.

Ahmadinejad certainly doesn't deserve the nobel peace prize, but he never said he wanted to bomb Israel.
 

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Trying to understand your logic here. The Guardian appears to be the first paper to give a correct translation and by this you believe it is untrustworthy?
That's a funny way to misinterpret my words.
I've insisted that I simply wish to see how international media sources deal with the mistranslation, except the guardian which I do not care about and do not trust in.
 

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It makes a big difference: if you look at the context, he was clearly not calling for the destruction of Israel. He calls for a regime change, just like Reagan wanted a regime change in USSR.
That's a mistranslation, just like the initial mistranslation.

In recent speeches Iranian figures including Ahmedinejad have continued their calls for the destruction of the 'Zionist Entity' (The way they refer to Israel).

Such speeches, as this speech was, are intended to show the Iranian willingness to see Israel destroyed.

Such speeches, as this speech was, are unacceptable.
 

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That's a funny way to misinterpret my words.
I've insisted that I simply wish to see how international media sources deal with the mistranslation, except the guardian which I do not care about and do not trust in.

You never said you wanted to see international media sources except the Guardian. You asked for one Western Source. Then when it turns out the Guardian is probably the first to have had a correct translation you declare you believe it is untrustworthy. I find your logic strange.

Is there any reason why you yourself could not have gone off on this search of comparing how International News sources dealt with the translation if that was indeed what you wanted rather than simply asking for one Western source, which is what you did?
 

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You never said you wanted to see international media sources except the Guardian. You asked for one Western Source. Then when it turns out the Guardian is probably the first to have had a correct translation you declare you believe it is untrustworthy. I find your logic strange.

Is there any reason why you yourself could not have gone off on this search of comparing how International News sources dealt with the translation if that was indeed what you wanted rather than simply asking for one Western source, which is what you did?
First of all, please point out to where is it stated that the Guardian was the first to come up with the translation.

Secondly, I am not interested in the Guardian's reference because 1) I have already read it and 2) I do not place my interest in sources that I find highly biased and do not trust in, hence I do not care for the Guardian's analysis and hence I do not ask for it.

And finally, I have asked for the sources because I couldn't find them.
Not BBC, not CNN, etc.
 

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It makes a big difference: if you look at the context, he was clearly not calling for the destruction of Israel. He calls for a regime change, just like Reagan wanted a regime change in USSR.

Ahmadinejad certainly doesn't deserve the nobel peace prize, but he never said he wanted to bomb Israel.

It appears that the basic internal logic of this sentence escapes you , because by very definition ANY regime of Israel's would be Zionist. To remove the ZIONIST regime would necessarily destroy Israel because there is no Israel without Zionism.

I realize that Europeans have been brainwashed by their media into believing the word "zionism" is a dirty word, and that you are similarly blinded by your prejudices to the point you support anything that hates Israel, but at least you could all attempt to interpret words with a little intelligence and logic.
 

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It appears that the basic internal logic of this sentence escapes you , because by very definition ANY regime of Israel's would be Zionist. To remove the ZIONIST regime would necessarily destroy Israel because there is no Israel without Zionism.
I didn't get that part as well.

Removing the Zionist(pro-Israel's existence) regime in Israel without removing the Israeli state is apparently a superhero trick limited to the European continent alone.
 

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I didn't get that part as well.

Removing the Zionist(pro-Israel's existence) regime in Israel without removing the Israeli state is apparently a superhero trick limited to the European continent alone.

Yep.

Why am I reminded of the classic scene from 1984 where the inquisitor tells Winston Smith that he will some day believe that thee fingers are really two?

In this case, though, nobody was actually tortured in order to elicit the proper response. It's amazing how easily the true believer can ignore what is actually in front of his or her face, and just go with the program, instead. ..........And people think the right wing religious fundies can be impervious to reason!
 

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First of all, please point out to where is it stated that the Guardian was the first to come up with the translation.

Secondly, I am not interested in the Guardian's reference because 1) I have already read it and 2) I do not place my interest in sources that I find highly biased and do not trust in, hence I do not care for the Guardian's analysis and hence I do not ask for it.

And finally, I have asked for the sources because I couldn't find them.
Not BBC, not CNN, etc.

Then you should have been quite clear what you were wanting. Any Western source but the Guardian.

I said probably the first western source with the correct translation because in the article itself it says that this resulted in others having to try to quickly say why they said the wrong translation.


You also did not say not BBC not CNN. Do you think we are mind readers? What exactly were you hoping for Apocalypse? Perhaps if you cannot find it, what you are looking for is not there.
 

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Do you think we are mind readers? .

Well, you must be considering you keep insisting that your friend here meant something other than what he said.
 
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You also did not say not BBC not CNN. Do you think we are mind readers? What exactly were you hoping for Apocalypse? Perhaps if you cannot find it, what you are looking for is not there.
I was hoping for a Western source that is not the Guardian and that is making the same or some similar statements about the Iranian wipe off the map line.

I have given the BBC and CNN as examples for such sources, as I have implied so clearly when I've used the "etc".
You really don't need to be a mind reader to know that, not even a mind-reader's apprentice.
 
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