The Great Experiment is now doomed

[poweRob]

Sure. So is the ability to support an addiction to meth. That doesn't make it something that is going to give you strength.

The most important fundamental building block of a society is the family unit - and 40% of American children are born out of wedlock. The basic social institutions that we require as a country to do well are hollowing out because we're too lazy and too self-absorbed to maintain them.

We're going to be fine. Every generation has their troops that are completely convinced that THIS time in our history is the worst. Things always have their rough spots but we are standing on firmer ground than in the past due to those from our past.

 

[RedAkston]

Try again. Murder rates in the US peaked in the early 1990s, have fallen consistently since then, are fairly low in states you probably don't like (e.g. NY, CA) and are very low compared to places like Honduras. Your perceptions are divorced from the reality.

I said the murder rates where freedom is restricted (take Chicago, IL for example) is horrible and you come back with this? Are you saying that you are fine with 488 murders in Chicago last year? What number would be "not horrible" for you?

In 2010, Washington DC had a murder rate of 21.8 per 100,000 inhabitants and you couldn't legally own a gun until 2008 unless it was registered prior to 1976. Are 21.8 murders per 100,000 inhabitants horrible or not horrible to you? If it's not, what number would be horrible in your opinion?

No, they haven't. The number of police officers killed in the line of duty is very small, and has not grown significantly in the past few years, despite the various conflicts between law enforcement and some minority communities.

Reading comprehension seems to be something you should probably work on. I stated that cops were being targeted and you come back with the number killed in the line of duty. These are two completely separate issues and you seem to be confused. I'm sensing a pattern here with you.

So do lots of people, and they have done so throughout human history.

What are you going to complain about next, that the sky is too blue?

I'm not OK with a politician lying to the American people, let alone the family members of those killed in, oh, say, Benghazi in 2012. Are you OK with that?

Erk? In your view, popular election of Senators is an example of despotism?

The United States has, in many ways, become more free and more democratic. There are more regulations, to be sure, but that is in no small part because life is much more complex, and on a larger scale, than in the past.

The states have no power in Washington. This is not how the Legislative Branch of the federal government was set up. If you can't see this, well then I can't help you.

Or not. No one is forcing the states to take the Medicare expansion of the ACA; no one forces them to take highway dollars in exchange for restricting alcohol to people 21 and up.

You obviously don't understand what the words "bribery" and "extortion" mean do you?

Spoken like someone who has absolutely no perspective on a truly sinister or totalitarian government.

I'll just chalk this one up to "throwing mud at the wall and hoping something sticks." You don't think the IRS is more intrusive than anything the Brits had prior to the US gaining independence from them? What about the FBI, the NSA, Homeland Security? And if you don't think our government is sinister, you haven't been paying attention.

Could'a fooled me

I'd post an image of Oprah, but I'm concerned you'd have a stroke out of pure rage.

The people who are getting some stick aren't the enterpreneurs who work hard for the money. It's the rentiers who are fleecing the average citizen, taking all the rewards of other people's hard work for themselves, and bribing the daylights out of elected officials; and the bankers who smashed our economy into a brick wall, and walked away unscathed.

Well, you were pretty easily fooled. Convenient how you left out these people:







And the bankers weren't the only ones who walked away unscathed. Barney Frank seems to be doing pretty well for himself these days.

I hate to be blunt, but: That's total bull.

What Americans want more than anything else is decent jobs. You really don't know this?

Most Important Problem | Gallup Historical Trends

Looks like they are more upset with the economy in general and dissatisfaction with the government more than they are worried about jobs. But to your failed point, of course they want jobs and good paying jobs. Jobs like coal, or how about that Keystone Pipeline that would have created thousands of jobs, or off-shore drilling, or drilling in Alaska or... The list of jobs that the current administration has killed is mind blowing. And the ACA has been a larger drain on our economy than anyone left of center will ever admit.

I have to ask, at any point in your whining, did you get up and do something about it? Anything? Or did you expect the world to change based on the magical thinking of your discontent?

I don't think you understand what whining truly is. I wasn't whining, just opining. Whining is what our coddled liberal college students do when someone writes Trump's name in chalk.

Poor little conservatives, finally waking up

The reality is that conservatism has utterly failed the white male ex-middle class that now supports Trump. It's spent years cutting taxes for the wealthy and corporations, congratulating CEOs on giving themselves raises, and blaming the poor and unemployed for their plight. While I do think Trump voters are blissfully ignorant of how badly they will get screwed by a Trump administration, and are clearly indulging in baser instincts like xenophobia and nativism, on some level they are reacting rationally. They know the Republican Establishment is not on their side.

Yawn...

Public Service Announcement:

Whining about other people whining is not impressive.

In summation, you swung and missed more than three times. In a game we like to call baseball, that would make you out.

 

[cpwill]

We're going to be fine. Every generation has their troops that are completely convinced that THIS time in our history is the worst. Things always have their rough spots but we are standing on firmer ground than in the past due to those from our past.

No, we are standing on weaker ground, because the institution's that have supported us through those times in the past are degraded.

Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk

 

[poweRob]

No, we are standing on weaker ground, because the institution's that have supported us through those times in the past are degraded.

Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk

I disagree.

 

[TheGoverness]

No, we are standing on weaker ground, because the institution's that have supported us through those times in the past are degraded.

Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk

What institutions?

 

[cpwill]

What institutions?

Marriage. Membership organizations. Church. "Civil Society". Americans are increasingly isolated from all those support networks that buoyed us up during hard times.

Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk

 

[Paleocon]

Our federal government has now become more sinister and intrusive than the monarchies that our founders fought to escape from.

There's a lesson here for he who has eyes to see and ears to hear.

Somehow, even with it clearly laid out like this, I doubt most will understand.

 

[Visbek]

I said the murder rates where freedom is restricted (take Chicago, IL for example) is horrible and you come back with this?

Chicago homicide rates are back to where they were in the 1960s -- and the homicide rate there is about the same as in Indianapolis, which has much laxer gun control laws.

In DC, homicide rates in 2014 were down to 15.9 per 100k -- a substantial drop in 4 years. Not as big as the drop from 80 per 100k in 1990, though.

But don't let a pesky thing like facts get in the way of a good rant.

I'm not OK with a politician lying to the American people, let alone the family members of those killed in, oh, say, Benghazi in 2012. Are you OK with that?

EVERYBODY lies. Every President, governor, elected official. You lie. Your kids lie. Your spouse lies. Your mom lies. Anyone who claims they do not lie is lying to you.

And no, I really do not give a crap about Benghazi. No one cares, except for a handful of desperate conservatives who can't get their non-scandals to stick.

The states have no power in Washington. This is not how the Legislative Branch of the federal government was set up. If you can't see this, well then I can't help you.

The whole idea of the Senate was to placate the smaller states, who were worried they wouldn't get enough representation; the idea of making them selected by the states was due to a fear of democracy. We, as a nation, decided a long time ago to make the Senate a slightly more democratic institution. That's a good thing.

I'll just chalk this one up to "throwing mud at the wall and hoping something sticks." You don't think the IRS is more intrusive than anything the Brits had prior to the US gaining independence from them?

1) The IRS has been increasingly gutted, doing fewer audits etc
2) The colonists didn't revolt because tax collectors were snoops. They were upset that they were taxed without representation. Heck, taxes were lowered before the Boston Tea Party -- the reaction was to the Crown reserving the right to hike taxes later on.
3) Speaking of taxation with representation: Our elected officials have cut taxes almost non-stop since the early 1980s.

What about the FBI, the NSA, Homeland Security?

The FBI is far less intrusive since the Hoover years. Unless you're a Muslim.

I'd be worried about the NSA or Homeland Security, if they actually did anything.

Well, you were pretty easily fooled. Convenient how you left out these people:

What does it matter? The point is that there are plenty of entrepreneurs and CEOs, from across the political spectrum, who get respect for their accomplishments.

Looks like they are more upset with the economy in general and dissatisfaction with the government more than they are worried about jobs. But to your failed point, of course they want jobs and good paying jobs. Jobs like coal, or how about that Keystone Pipeline that would have created thousands of jobs, or off-shore drilling, or drilling in Alaska or... The list of jobs that the current administration has killed is mind blowing. And the ACA has been a larger drain on our economy than anyone left of center will ever admit.

I did not say that "jobs" was the #1 issue in a Gallup poll. You suggested that Americans want free stuff; I pointed out that they want jobs. They want to work. They want a strong economy because they want to work, and feel economically secure, not because they want free stuff.

FYI: The number of jobs in the coal industry are laughably small. It's literally 0.12% of the workforce. Losing every single one of those jobs would barely make a dent in the unemployment rate.

Yes, it always sucks for anyone whose job is caught in an economic transition. The idea that government should compel us to use a type of energy that is expensive, dirty, inefficient and no one wants -- because it's going to hurt a job? That's the lowest form of welfare.

P.S.: It's things like the Keystone Pipeline that are killing coal jobs.

P.P.S. We have a fossil fuel glut. There's so much oil, that the industry is cutting jobs. No one needs to drill in Alaska.

P.P.P.S.: Over 9 million jobs created during Obama's term. Just FYI.

I also can't help but notice that at no point did you say what you have done to make any changes. Did you expect other people to do stuff for you?

 

[Visbek]

And yes, to be clear... I'm definitely enjoying a bit of schadenfreude. It could come back to bite me, of course, but that's a risk I'm willing to take.

Conservatism just isn't as powerful as it used to be, or as powerful as it thinks it is. Instead of realizing that its message is not resonating with the public, and trying to figure out why, the first impulse seems to be to blame everyone else -- "faux" conservatives, leftists, Trump, the American people itself.

Despite the momentary madness and partisanship, I for one am still quite optimistic about this nation. Many of us take the increase in freedoms, fantastic entrepreneurial spirit, and stability over the past ~50 years for granted; ignore how immigration can be an engine of growth and dynamism for this nation.

And of course, it's very easy to lose sight of how the world is substantially safer, more stable, more democratic, more connected than at any time in the past.

C'est la guerre, non?

 

[Risky Thicket]

Last I checked 18% of pregnancies are aborted. I'm pretty sure anyone would call that common. Besides of which, decline in abortion has to do with the increase in birth control usage, not a change in mindset on abortion.

Must we turn this too into an abortion thread?

 

[RedAkston]

Chicago homicide rates are back to where they were in the 1960s -- and the homicide rate there is about the same as in Indianapolis, which has much laxer gun control laws.

In DC, homicide rates in 2014 were down to 15.9 per 100k -- a substantial drop in 4 years. Not as big as the drop from 80 per 100k in 1990, though.

But don't let a pesky thing like facts get in the way of a good rant.

So you're good with the number of murders in places like Chicago and Washington DC, check. But don't let a pesky thing like addressing what I've actually said get in the way of a lame attempt at derailing the subject at hand. You still need to work on that reading comprehension thing, FYI.

EVERYBODY lies. Every President, governor, elected official. You lie. Your kids lie. Your spouse lies. Your mom lies. Anyone who claims they do not lie is lying to you.

And no, I really do not give a crap about Benghazi. No one cares, except for a handful of desperate conservatives who can't get their non-scandals to stick.

You don't care that American citizens were killed in a foreign country, check. You don't care that your government lied to the American people, and to the families of the victims face-to-face, check. "What difference does it make?!?!?!?" right?

The whole idea of the Senate was to placate the smaller states, who were worried they wouldn't get enough representation; the idea of making them selected by the states was due to a fear of democracy. We, as a nation, decided a long time ago to make the Senate a slightly more democratic institution. That's a good thing.

The Senate was the voice of the states and the House was the voice of the people. There was a balance there and there isn't now. When the Senate has to change their rules to ram one of the worst pieces of legislation in the history of our country down our throats even though the majority of both the states and the people opposed the legislation, there might be a problem with your line of thinking. But since your side got what they wanted, it's all OK - nothing to see here, move along. :roll:

1) The IRS has been increasingly gutted, doing fewer audits etc
2) The colonists didn't revolt because tax collectors were snoops. They were upset that they were taxed without representation. Heck, taxes were lowered before the Boston Tea Party -- the reaction was to the Crown reserving the right to hike taxes later on.
3) Speaking of taxation with representation: Our elected officials have cut taxes almost non-stop since the early 1980s.

The IRS is charged with collecting a fine if the citizens don't purchase a product. Kind of goes against that whole liberty part that I mentioned some time ago. How many roads and hospitals and military members did we have prior to 1913? Seems to me that all these taxes are nothing more than the federal government stealing from the American people, but I'm just a silly little conservative who sees through the smoke that progressives have been blowing up the ass of the American people for more than a century now.

The FBI is far less intrusive since the Hoover years. Unless you're a Muslim.

I'd be worried about the NSA or Homeland Security, if they actually did anything.

That's nice. So you're not disputing my point that our government is more intrusive than England was when we fought for our independence, which IIRC was a few years before the "Hoover years"?

What does it matter? The point is that there are plenty of entrepreneurs and CEOs, from across the political spectrum, who get respect for their accomplishments.

And many of them are vilified because they make too much or don't pay their employees enough or don't donate to charities enough or... the list goes on and on. If the Obama administration has been successful at anything during the last 7 + years, it's dividing this country not based on race, but based on the have and the have nots. Why should anyone be entitled to someone else's money is beyond me.

I did not say that "jobs" was the #1 issue in a Gallup poll. You suggested that Americans want free stuff; I pointed out that they want jobs. They want to work. They want a strong economy because they want to work, and feel economically secure, not because they want free stuff.

FYI: The number of jobs in the coal industry are laughably small. It's literally 0.12% of the workforce. Losing every single one of those jobs would barely make a dent in the unemployment rate.

Yes, it always sucks for anyone whose job is caught in an economic transition. The idea that government should compel us to use a type of energy that is expensive, dirty, inefficient and no one wants -- because it's going to hurt a job? That's the lowest form of welfare.

P.S.: It's things like the Keystone Pipeline that are killing coal jobs.

P.P.S. We have a fossil fuel glut. There's so much oil, that the industry is cutting jobs. No one needs to drill in Alaska.

P.P.P.S.: Over 9 million jobs created during Obama's term. Just FYI.

I also can't help but notice that at no point did you say what you have done to make any changes. Did you expect other people to do stuff for you?

Americans want free stuff. Look no further than the Bernie Sanders supporters and many of the Clinton supporters. You can't deny this without having your head buried somewhere in a dark place.

The coal jobs in those parts of the country are not laughably small. You have 22 counties in Kentucky that have an unemployment rate of more than 10% and one with a rate of more than 20%. West Virginia has 15 counties above 10%. So I suppose as long as it's people in those states that are part of that .12% it's OK? I though the liberal fight was that of the "little man". I guess not huh?

The jobs created under Obama's term aren't good paying jobs, are mostly part time jobs and were created in spite of everything he's done to slow down the recovery. We rebounded from the Great Depression faster than we have from the 2008 collapse. Unemployment is calculated differently now than it was then. True unemployment is still worse than it was the day Obama took office. Median income is still lower now than when Obama took office, although it is trending up slightly.

As for me making changes? I'm not an elected official. I'm a single guy just trying to contribute to society, pay my bills and my taxes and watch my grandkids grow up. I have plenty of ideas on how to fix what's wrong but that whole not an elected official part pretty much does it. I may decide to run for office one day, but for now my family is my main focus.

 

[devildavid]

Didn't it all start going to hell in the 1920's?

 

[RedAkston]

Didn't it all start going to hell in the 1920's?

1912 - Woodrow Wilson

 

[cpwill]

1912 - Woodrow Wilson

I had a professor once tell me I needed to make emotional peace with Wickard v Filburn.

 

[cpgrad08]

The Great Experiment known as the United States of America and everything it was founded upon will soon come to an end..

I guess it is time for Atlas to Shrug.

 

[devildavid]

1912 - Woodrow Wilson

It's not ideology that is the problem, it's consumer culture and the move from our agrarian roots. A lot of that really took off during the roaring 20's. But it was inevitable in a country that places commerce above all else.

 

[Visbek]

So you're good with the number of murders in places like Chicago and Washington DC, check. But don't let a pesky thing like addressing what I've actually said get in the way of a lame attempt at derailing the subject at hand.....

I'm saying that you are complaining about homicide rates when they've been falling for over 20 years.

Or: We can talk about extreme lengths people go through to conceive children, to keep premature infants alive, how most people are deeply offended by the idea of giving up a fight against a painful terminal illness, and sacrificing quality of life for mere extension thereof.

Compared to earlier eras where infant mortality rates were very high, when death by violence was routine, when life was cheap, we value life far more than in the past.

Is that more what you're talking about?

You don't care that American citizens were killed in a foreign country, check.

It was a war zone. Bad stuff happens. No one cares, because it's obvious by now that it's only political hay for the Republicans.

The IRS is charged with collecting a fine if the citizens don't purchase a product. Kind of goes against that whole liberty part that I mentioned some time ago.

Yes, our liberty suffered deeply with that mandatory car insurance thing. Curses!

How many roads and hospitals and military members did we have prior to 1913? Seems to me that all these taxes are nothing more than the federal government stealing from the American people...etc

Are you saying that roads, hospitals and the military are superfluous? You have to clarify this point.

So you're not disputing my point that our government is more intrusive than England was when we fought for our independence, which IIRC was a few years before the "Hoover years"?

I'm saying that by many standards, the FBI is less intrusive than in the not so distant past. That should be evident to anyone who knows about J Edgar.

The NSA is sniffing everything... and doing nothing with it. Not sure why that is supposed to strike fear into anyone's heart.

If the Obama administration has been successful at anything during the last 7 + years, it's dividing this country not based on race... yadda yadda

I realize that many people have a pathological desire to blame Obama for their toast being burned, but he really did not say all that much against the wealthy, and did even less to thwart them.

Americans want free stuff. Look no further than the Bernie Sanders supporters and many of the Clinton supporters. You can't deny this without having your head buried somewhere in a dark place.

Some Americans want the same thing that every other civilized nation has -- a good health care system, and good education so they can... get decent jobs. (Those nations pay for it out of taxes.)

The coal jobs in those parts of the country are not laughably small.

Sorry, but... yes, they are. Again: 170k out of 144 million jobs in the US. 0.12% of the total workforce. That's bupkis.

And of course, for every coal miner's job lost, there's another driller hired in Minnesota, or a pipeline operator hired in Texas.

More important is the reality is that the economy changes. Adapt or die. I've heard conservatives claim for years that if you can't get a job, you should pack up and move. And if you're not employed, you don't deserve any help from the government, no training, no assistance. Why that doesn't apply to coal miners in Kentucky is beyond me.

The jobs created under Obama's term aren't good paying jobs, are mostly part time jobs and were created in spite of everything he's done to slow down the recovery.

Try again. Most of the jobs created are full-time; part-time employment is flat.

Meanwhile the stock market has recovered, manufacturing output are near or at record highs, construction is poised for a solid return (as housing inventory is very short), the US is doing a lot better right now than China or the EU.

"Good jobs" haven't been created in large numbers over 40 years. Even during the housing bubble, median income for everyone except the top 1% was flat.

U6 is almost back to normal. We have a record-setting 73 months of private sector job growth.

LFPR started falling in 2001, mostly due to more people staying in school, and the Baby Boomers retiring -- and it's been going UP for the past 7 months. That hasn't happened in nearly 2 decades.

Not bad, given the major disaster at the start of his term.

 

[Riveroaks]

The Great Experiment known as the United States of America and everything it was founded upon will soon come to an end. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness has been redefined. Life, as precious as it is, is not valued at all in this country. Abortions are common place, the murder rate where freedoms are restricted is horrible, our police have become targets, our politicians lie to cover their own failures and our justice system is beyond repair at this point. Liberty, defined as freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control, has been slipping through our fingers for more than a century now (see 17th amendment). For years the federal government has gone to great lengths to hold a figurative gun to the state governments in such a way that can't be described as anything but bribery and extortion. Our federal government has now become more sinister and intrusive than the monarchies that our founders fought to escape from. The pursuit of happiness, the single most twisted and distorted of the three, is quite possibly the single biggest contributor to our downfall. It has been redefined, not for everyone to have the same opportunities, but more for everyone to have the same results regardless of the personal decisions people make in their lives. No longer are those who become successful and attain wealth through risk, hard work and determination looked up to, they are now scorned for being productive members of society (things like creating jobs, paying more than their fair share of taxes, etc...) and simply having too much "stuff". The pursuit of happiness now means free housing, free phones, free health care, free food and zero responsibility to provide for themselves and their families...

If you are referring to Hillary then she can't do much unless she wins both the Senate AND the House with her.

There is a good chance she will win the Senate especially with Donald on the GOP ticket. That should give Hillary a fairly large turnout.

So on the outside good chance that Hillary WON'T win the House I think Paul Ryan can hold her off.

If she DOES win it all however then we are indeed doomed for the next generation until all her laws (gun bans etc.) are repealed and all her SCOTUS nominations die.

If you are talking about Trump being elected, then I don't think he will be any worse than GWB was or even than Carter was or Ford was. We have been there and done that and this too will pass.

If by some miracle Trump wins (unlikely) and the Senate and House remain GOP controlled (also unlikely) then we might get some good SCOTUS appointments out of this. But even then I don't expect Trump will be re-elected after the chaos that ensues.

Just because Cruz and Rubio -- both bantam freshman Senators -- failed is no reason to commit suicide now.

So the two most likely scenarios I see at this point are either --

- Hillary wins, Senate goes DEM, House stays GOP

- Trump wins, Senate goes DEM, House stays GOP.

Either way there will be gridlock. Unfortunately between Hillary and a DEM Senate, this will destroy the SCOTUS for a long time -- 20 years or so.

 

[legalimmigrant]

All that constitutional talk is a waste of time because your government violates the Constitution every day and will continue doing it forever.

The real reason why your country is a one-time experiment coming to an end is that what the whores in D.C. are doing to the U.S. is UNSUSTAINABLE. No country can survive hordes of illegals, losing manufacturing jobs, and scary foreign trade and budget deficits with no end in sight.

Add to this the purely American "Magnificent Seven" messiah complex - the addiction to playing world's cop because "we have to do something" - and you have a financial disaster coming your way: a runaway federal debt and the cities teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. Like Detroit and Chicago.

Illinois is in the pension hole to the tune of 100 billion bucks because the morons in Springfield spent it. This is the kind of government the American voters like.

Hello, Argentina, Greece, and Zimbabwe.

 

[Northern Light]

The Great Experiment known as the United States of America and everything it was founded upon will soon come to an end. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness has been redefined.

It's being redefined everywhere. The western institutions are changing and we are entering post-consumer, neo-liberal globalism. You can't really blame one side or the other in the public, everyone has contributed. It's also just the natural conclusion of the way the economy has been headed the past 50 years or so. It wasn't going to last forever, despite the propaganda. I've lived long enough to see the U.S. go through its challenges, but this feels like a new epoch that's upon us. Our freedom-loving, democratic way of life is coming full circle. Our forefathers fled oppression to create a free land and now we are seeing that there's nowhere you can run to escape the inevitable cycles of human nature. In the past 15 years alone things have changed to the point that I barely recognize the political landscape of my own country. Trump getting the nomination is a real "matrix" moment for me and the fact that he's one step away from POTUS makes me question reality. Hilary? Same deal.

The stupidity and laziness among us has been stewing for a long time and it's cyclical. People have abdicated power and responsibility, and in turn more power and responsibility has been taken from them. What surprises me is that your critique does not include an analysis of where all the money has gone. I don't think social entitlement is the biggest drain, it's the neo-liberals. We had a few crises in the 70's and 80's but for the most part we had a thriving middle class and there was proper wealth distribution. Now the taps are running dry, the cost of living is going up, and the money suppliers are moving their stashes over seas. In some ways American consumerism has been the biggest ponzi scheme ever. Once that was exported everywhere else, the U.S. became one big money harvesting bank to start funneling funds from to the other places. The treaty system really compounded this problem. A lot of conservatives compare the previous generations to this one and ask what the **** their problem is, but the gravy train started to leave in the 90's with all the new economic treaties, and it left entirely during the 2008 recession. At that point, it couldn't be more obvious who was controlling our country, including the GOP and the Dems. Greece was the sequel, where we saw private parties openly telling elected officials what to do.

We've been had.

 

[TurtleDude]

4 years of Hillary we could survive. A far left supreme court, we cannot.

I doubt the Dems could survive it either. The USSC is losing respect at a rate that has not been seen since the Warren years

 

[jet57]

And what does that have to do with anything I've said? Try sticking to the topic at hand. It's a gaggle of far left loons that are crying that they'll leave the country if Trump wins. I haven't heard anyone say they'll leave if Hillary wins. Now if Texas were to secede I'd give it some thought, but other than that I'm here to stay for as many days as God will grant me on this earth.

My comment has everything to do with what you said. You're saying the United States is doomed, and you came just under the 5,000 + character limit (cough) to do it. It's a screed of nothing but complaining because your boy Cruz's last little trick didn't work out so well.

Since you believe that the US is finished, then I'm sure that another country will take your tax money and you can hate liberals from, oh, say - the Iberian peninsula.

The rest of US will stay here, and deal with whatever comes up like we have for the last 240 years.

Your screed is sour grapes, full of nothing but nonsense and has no point. So, ga'head and leave then.

 

[Frank Apisa]

There's a lesson here for he who has eyes to see and ears to hear.

Somehow, even with it clearly laid out like this, I doubt most will understand.

The notion that our government has become more sinister and intrusive than the monarchy our founding fathers fought to escape from...

...is an absurdity.

We're doing just fine. And we will probably do much better if the paranoid people are not allowed to gain any more control.

 

[Frank Apisa]

And yes, to be clear... I'm definitely enjoying a bit of schadenfreude. It could come back to bite me, of course, but that's a risk I'm willing to take.

Conservatism just isn't as powerful as it used to be, or as powerful as it thinks it is. Instead of realizing that its message is not resonating with the public, and trying to figure out why, the first impulse seems to be to blame everyone else -- "faux" conservatives, leftists, Trump, the American people itself.

Despite the momentary madness and partisanship, I for one am still quite optimistic about this nation. Many of us take the increase in freedoms, fantastic entrepreneurial spirit, and stability over the past ~50 years for granted; ignore how immigration can be an engine of growth and dynamism for this nation.

And of course, it's very easy to lose sight of how the world is substantially safer, more stable, more democratic, more connected than at any time in the past.

C'est la guerre, non?

We've disagree strongly on some things, Visbeck...but I hope you allow me to agree with you on this post and the one just before it.

These were masterful, insightful posts.

 

[joG]

The Great Experiment known as the United States of America and everything it was founded upon will soon come to an end. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness has been redefined. Life, as precious as it is, is not valued at all in this country. Abortions are common place, the murder rate where freedoms are restricted is horrible, our police have become targets, our politicians lie to cover their own failures and our justice system is beyond repair at this point. Liberty, defined as freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control, has been slipping through our fingers for more than a century now (see 17th amendment). For years the federal government has gone to great ......e from. The pursuit of happiness, the single most twisted and distorted of the three, is quite possibly the single biggest contributor to our downfall. It has been redefined, not for everyone to have the same opportunities, but more for everyone to have the same results regardless of the personal decisions people make in their lives. No longer are those who become successful and attain wealth through risk, hard work and determination looked up to, they are now scorned for being productive members of society (things like creating jobs, paying more than their fair share of taxes, etc...) and simply having too much "stuff". The pursuit of happiness now means free housing, free phones, free health care, free food and zero responsibility to provide for themselves and their families.

These aren't things that I just came to realize, these have been a serious problem for quite some time now and they're getting worse. What I did come to realize is that the average America voter is absolutely clueless. I'd lost faith in the liberals a long, long time ago and I've just lost faith in "conservatives", especially in my home state. I've been saying for a long time that both the Democrats and the Republicans are destroying this country but the Democrats are standing on the gas pedal while the Republicans are easing into the throttle. This is no longer the case after recent events. Republican voters have lost sight of any principles that they once held and have abandoned them for hate, celebrity and turning a blind eye to the truth. They are just as bad, if not worse, than the Democrats.

I'm sure some of you are saying that "more people voted against Donald Trump than voted for him". While this is true, the fact that enough people have been duped into voting for someone with no experience in political office, a liberal in so many ways prior to 2015 (he is the new face of a "flip flopper") and someone with an incredibly short fuse is disturbing - and it should be to everyone regardless of political lean. And the fact that we're now left with a choice of a celebrity who isn't qualified to hold the office and either a crooked politician who lies constantly or a socialist who wants to give everything away and doesn't understand economics and how they work. How did we get to this point?

We have become a nation of entitled cry babies with no desire to stand on our own two feet. Are we all entitled? No. Are we all cry babies? No. Do we all live off the government titt? No, but too many of us do and the number keeps growing and growing and growing. The growth in the number of "makers" is being outpaced by the number of "takers". This will ultimately lead to a disaster.

I no longer hold out hope that we can turn this country around. I believe we are past the "tipping point" and what happened in Indiana yesterday solidified that belief for me. I have changed my lean to Independent because there aren't enough true conservatives left in the Republican party. I have not considered myself a Republican for years now, but they were the lesser of the two major evils parties in this country. I don't know if I can bring myself to vote for Trump or if this will be the first year I vote for a third party candidate. Trump is a wildcard and he could be the best thing since Ronald Reagan or the worst President of all-time, but he would still be a better choice than the alternative from the Democratic ticket. How sad is it that our candidates for POTUS get worse and worse every election? The answer - the American people keep getting dumber and dumber every year and it's caught up to us. This once great nation of ours will turn into a European nightmare along the lines of Greece. The last great hope for freedom and independence on the planet has been on life support for some time now. Sooner or later, the plug is going to be pulled and it will be the ignorant American voting public that will do it. Only God can help us now because we are no longer capable of helping ourselves.

I have read similar written by Romans about Rome from before BC went to AD.