The Face of Later Abortion (1 Viewer)

[minnie616]

According to statistics, about 1% of abortions are performed after the 20 week mark. There has been a lot of discussion about why a woman would abort so late. Most opponents of abortion have painted the 20 week + abortions as irresponsible.

Here are real stories of women who have aborted after 20 weeks. Most of them were pregnancies that were wanted and even planned.

I agree.
These are very sad cases indeed.
I have posted many times that legal abortions that take place after the 20 week gestation mark are mostly because of fetal or genetic abnormalities.
Many people on this board either do not know or do not want to acknowledge the fact genetic abnormalities are not found until around the 20 week gestation mark.

Ultrasounds which measure the spaces between the vertebrae are taken around 18 weeks gestation. If those are abnormal an amino is done around the 20 weeks gestation so they can test the fetal cells that are in the amino fluid for abnormal genetic markers.

Then the woman and her doctor have to discuss her options and if she chooses to abort she needs to arrange for the abortion before the 24 week gestation mark since most states will not allow abortions for genetic /fetal defects or abnormalities after 24 weeks gestation (viability ).

Other extreme cases that may occur late in pregnancy and are legal after viability are risk of life of woman, irreparable damage to a major bodility function and if the fetus has already died naturally within the womb but failed to expell . ( yes, the removal by a doctor of a dead fetus is still called an abortion).

In 2008 there were only a small handful states that allowed abortions after viability for these extreme cases and Kansas was one of those states .
Dr. Tiller was one of only 5 doctors in the USA who performed legal abortions after viabilty.
Doctors from all the USA who had patients with these extreme problem pregnancies would send their patients to Dr.Tiller in Kansas.

Kansas keep a record of all legal abortions that took place after 22 weeks gestation.

There were 323 abortions that took place at or after the 22 week gestion mark in Kansas in 2008.

192 cases were because the fetus was not viable.
It had died in the womb, would be stillborn or was so malformed it would only live a few minutes or hours.

The other 131 cases were because irreparable damage to a major bodily function would occur if the pregnancy continued.

 

[nota bene]

Now, Minnie, share the other facts about Tiller and his late-term abortions. Tell everybody how many late-term abortions were performed because of alleged risk to the mother's mental health based on ONE alleged "depressive" episode.

 

[minnie616]

Now, Minnie, share the other facts about Tiller and his late-term abortions. Tell everybody how many late-term abortions were performed because of alleged risk to the mother's mental health based on ONE alleged "depressive" episode.

Yes you posted a small handful of girls / women out of the 132 from all over the country had abortions because of mental illness.
I do not recall reading they were based on one alleged " depressive " episode.
I recall the term was Major Depressive Episode which is quite different than simple depression.
Mental illness is very real and pregnancy often worsens mental illness and let's be honest one the cases of Major Depressive Episode was a 10 year old pregnant girl. I cannot imagine all the abuse that poor girl went through ...no wonder she had a Major Depressive Episode.

 

[nota bene]

You need to catch up on your reading. I don't have time to help this morning, but her full name is Ann Kristen Neuhaus although she goes by "Kristen" if you Google, and she was Tiller's required rubber-stamp. Kan. doctor loses license over abortion referrals

One 15-year old whose late-term abortion Neuhaus rubber-stamped needed one because she was a barrel-racer and having kids would interfere.

From Operation Rescue:

The eleven records contained one diagnosis of “Anxiety Disorder,” three diagnoses of “Acute Stress Disorder,” six instances of “Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode.” One 13-year old patient who was 25 weeks pregnant had no specific psychiatric diagnosis listed to justify her exception to the Kansas law banning post-viability abortions.

None of those abortions met the standard of “substantial and irreversible” mental health impairments, according to Dr. Paul McHugh, a highly respected expert in psychiatry with Johns Hopkins University Hospital who reviewed the abortion records and submitted an affidavit on his findings at the request of then-Attorney General Phill Kline, whose office was investigating abortion abuses. McHugh later stated in an interview that it was his opinion that information in the records was inadequate to come to any psychiatric diagnosis, and that he could see no case among the files he examined in which a late-term abortion could be justified under Kansas law on psychiatric grounds. (Watch the McHugh Interview)

Since the abortions did not meet the legal standard of presenting “substantial and irreversible” mental health risks, it would have been illegal and unethical for Neuhaus to sign off on them.

Board Sets Hearing Date For Tiller Associate In Illegal Late-Term Abortion Referral Case

 

[Aunt Spiker]

According to statistics, about 1% of abortions are performed after the 20 week mark. There has been a lot of discussion about why a woman would abort so late. Most opponents of abortion have painted the 20 week + abortions as irresponsible.

Here are real stories of women who have aborted after 20 weeks. Most of them were pregnancies that were wanted and even planned.

No - There are two different things, here.

1) Women and babies who have SERIOUS issues - life and death - or extreme situations like being born without a brain.
2) Women who DON'T have serious issues - there is only the decision or circumstance which makes them not want a child. If the child is born, mother would be fine and baby would be fine.

20 weeks and after IS legal - very tragically - IF something SERIOUS is revealed by a DOCTOR. Tragic, but it does happen - very rarely. Now - what i don't understand is why they would have to go to a CLINIC to get one when their OBGYN would/should do such a procedure. (One of those women said they walked through lines of protesters - that's confusing. Perhaps some states have made it 100% illegal even IF life/health is in danger?)

LEGALIZING 20 weeks and after would make it legal for ANYONE to get a late term abortion for ANY reason.

HUGE DIFFERENCE.

I do support saving a mother's life and the choice to end if the child is born with an extreme malady which will likely lead to death before birth or soon after (etc). I do not support late-term in any other sense.

 

[minnie616]

Most abortion doctors will not perform abortions after 20 weeks gestation because they need to make a lethal injection into the heart of the fetus at or after the 20 week gestation mark.
An abortion doctor needs to be very skilled and trained to be able to perform those abortions so very few clinics perform abortions at or after 20 weeks gestation.
Besides the risk for complications at or after the 20 week gestion mark is so high most doctors refuse to perform abortions after 20 weeks except in cases where the fetus will be stillborn or is so malformed it will not live more than a few minutes or hours or the life or irreparable damage to a major bodily function would take place if the pregnancy continued.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Most abortion doctors will not perform abortions after 20 weeks gestation because they need to make a lethal injection into the heart of the fetus at or after the 20 week gestation mark.
An abortion doctor needs to be very skilled and trained to be able to perform those abortions so very few clinics perform abortions at or after 20 weeks gestation.
Besides the risk for complications at or after the 20 week gestion mark is so high most doctors refuse to perform abortions after 20 weeks except in cases where the fetus will be stillborn or is so malformed it will not live more than a few minutes or hours or the life or irreparable damage to a major bodily function would take place if the pregnancy continued.

I don't doubt what you've said, but do you have even the slightest idea how insanely inhumane that sounds? An abortion doctor needs to be very skilled and trained to be able to perform late term abortions as opposed to any other abortion? Doesn't that tell you something? But we've been told endlessly by the abortion promotion lobbyist here that these are supposed to be just boils, warts, unwelcomed lumps, invading and infecting the female host, and now you have to be skilled enough to lethally inject the heart like some professional vampire slayer.

I'm sorry, I'm all for choice and protecting the mental and physical health of women, but this isn't human and it's dirty and disgusting and I'm not a religious person but if there is a God and there is a hell, there is a very special place in hell for those who would inject the heart of a fetus/child in order to rip its life away.

 

[minnie616]

....

I'm sorry, I'm all for choice and protecting the mental and physical health of women, but this isn't human and it's dirty and disgusting and I'm not a religious person but if there is a God and there is a hell, there is a very special place in hell for those who would inject the heart of a fetus/child in order to rip its life away.

I am sorry this upsets you.

If you can come up with a more humane way to make sure the fetus is stillborn and will not feel any pain I am sure the medical community would like to know.

Intact D and E was banned so this is the method they use now.

 

[sangha]

Yes you posted a small handful of girls / women out of the 132 from all over the country had abortions because of mental illness.
I do not recall reading they were based on one alleged " depressive " episode.
I recall the term was Major Depressive Episode which is quite different than simple depression.
Mental illness is very real and pregnancy often worsens mental illness and let's be honest one the cases of Major Depressive Episode was a 10 year old pregnant girl. I cannot imagine all the abuse that poor girl went through ...no wonder she had a Major Depressive Episode.

The abortion banners beliefs are so perverse that they imagine a pregnant 10yo child has no "legit" reason to get an abortion. :screwy:

 

[sangha]

I'm sorry, I'm all for choice and protecting the mental and physical health of women, but this isn't human and it's dirty and disgusting and I'm not a religious person but if there is a God and there is a hell, there is a very special place in hell for those who would inject the heart of a fetus/child in order to rip its life away.

Your own words prove that you are not "all for choice" when you describe a life saving medical procedure as "dirty and disgusting" merely because it requires an injection.

You should see MCAB's require.

 

[Removable Mind]

Don't act like Gosnell horrified you. If you support laws limiting a women's rights I'm afraid you are allies with sickos like him The anti-choice movement is promoting people like Gosnell by banning legal abortions. They are the friends of the butchers who are just waiting in the wings you to do the dirty work for them. Moving abortions into the shadows is your goal...and maniacs like Gosnell will just love it.

Excellent point.

But from what I see from most pro-birth/pro-life is: By forcing women to give birth to an unwanted child...is a form of punishment...which they want to laws forbiding abortion to be a "very stern message to all women about sexual behavior and responsibility". In other words...all women need to fit into the scope of responsibility and accountability that fits their specific moral beliefs...regardless of what we know to be the "genuine impact on society as a whole - which is: There is zero evidence to show that all of the abortions performed in human history has imposed any signs that human proliferation is damaged. Or that any given abortion performed at any given time or place on this planet significantly impacts us as individuals at large or global societies.

The primary objection by the majority of pro-birth and pro-life related to conceptions is that it is a sacrosanct event. Many won't admit such. However, there's just no other explanation as far as I can see.

 

[Removable Mind]

Most abortion doctors will not perform abortions after 20 weeks gestation because they need to make a lethal injection into the heart of the fetus at or after the 20 week gestation mark.
An abortion doctor needs to be very skilled and trained to be able to perform those abortions so very few clinics perform abortions at or after 20 weeks gestation.
Besides the risk for complications at or after the 20 week gestion mark is so high most doctors refuse to perform abortions after 20 weeks except in cases where the fetus will be stillborn or is so malformed it will not live more than a few minutes or hours or the life or irreparable damage to a major bodily function would take place if the pregnancy continued.

For some reason, Minnie...what you've described in your post...is one of the most IGNORED facts about pro-birth and pro-life advocates. They just don't want this to be in the forefront of a very important fact regarding abortion. They want to IGNORE that 12 weeks and under when over 85% of abortions are performed...because the reality is that at these stages of development...they have very minor development characteristics that could even come close to that of a born child.

They want to IGNORE that WHEN 20 WEEK PLUS abortions are performed...that they nearly always involve severely defective fetuses or life or long-term health issues regard a woman or at stake. And these types of abortion...represents only about 1.5% of all abortions.

Thanks.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Hrm... So he's like every abortionist and virtually every abortionist's clients?

Ok, we get that you think it shouldn't be, but are you so divorced from reality that you're claiming abortion is not, in fact, legal in this country?

 

[JayDubya]

Ok, we get that you think it shouldn't be, but are you so divorced from reality that you're claiming abortion is not, in fact, legal in this country?

Per usual, the pro-aborts are the ones with reality issues.

My statement was quite plain; she said that Gosnell was a sociopathic killer. I said he's no different than every other abortionist, because he isn't. The point is obvious.

I realize that he's going to die in prison now. I also realize that his peers can't even be arrested when their actions are fundamentally similar. That's a problem that needs fixing. What they do should be as illegal as what Gosnell did.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

According to statistics, about 1% of abortions are performed after the 20 week mark. There has been a lot of discussion about why a woman would abort so late. Most opponents of abortion have painted the 20 week + abortions as irresponsible.

Here are real stories of women who have aborted after 20 weeks. Most of them were pregnancies that were wanted and even planned.

Great, and very sad, link, Sassy.

Reading through these, a couple things stand out to me.

The first is how callously a lot of these women were treated, because they didn't qualify for local abortions and/or insurance coverage due to the fact that they were past 20 weeks and/or their lives weren't in danger. Pretty much all of them had a terminal diagnosis for the fetus -- it was merely a question of whether they'd prefer to abort sooner and save them some pain, or wait until an ill-fated labor and let them suffer to death. That isn't much of a choice, and I agree with many of them that the former is more compassionate.

And yet, they were still being treated so coldly and left stranded financially, as if choosing not to abort a terminal fetus is going to make it any less terminal.

Julie's story illustrates that pretty dramatically. She had two pregnancies with the same terminal defect. The first was diagnosed just after 20 weeks, and the second slightly before, and due to this arbitrary difference, she was treated dramatically differently through the two experiences.

There are from her first termination, just after 20 weeks. She had to do it by forced labor, because getting a D&E after 20 weeks would have required an infeasible amount of travel:

A few hours before delivery, I asked for pain medication. I was given it via IV and my doctor then ordered the nurse to give me medication, which she did not do.
...
Suddenly, I felt the most intense pain in my life. It was like being on fire. I was screaming, and my husband’s requests were not being heard. After half an hour, we finally got a doctor in to give me medication. The nurse, who didn’t give me medication earlier had also turned off my epidural prematurely.

This is from her second, terminated just shy of 20 weeks, where she was able to get the D&E:

Since I was before 20 weeks, I was able to schedule a D&E to terminate my pregnancy. The experience was such a contrast. The hospital staff was warm and consoling. The surgeon was an angel.

Apparently, a week or two is the difference between being a person worthy of sympathy, or not.

It's worth noting the only reason she found out sooner with the second was because she had an amplified prenatal care regime due to her previous pregnancy loss. A woman with no previous history of serious defects would not have this kind of hyper-vigilant care, so it's not as though she simply sat on her ass during her first; her doctors had no reason to put her on a such an intense care regime the first time.

The other thing that strikes me is how differently these women feel about it, even though all of these pregnancies were wanted. Some felt as though they'd lost their baby, while others felt that it just wasn't meant to be, although they were still devastated.

This is from Samantha's story. She read prayers, had a baptism, and a burial. This bit is actually fairly long, but here's a demonstrative snippet:

The vicar and others arrived, photo’s were taken, and the baptism took place with my best friend, the photographer and my two doulas being god mothers to my beautiful little girl, Poppy.

I spent the rest of the day with my beautiful little princess, sending her all my love and gathering items to keep her company until she was put in her coffin.

And here, again, is from Julie's story:

This wasn’t our baby that we were meant to have.

Pregnancy and childbearing means different things to different women (and men). I don't see any reason why one is more right than the other. It demonstrates the extremely personal nature of people's experiences with their own pregnancies and their own children, and that even women who are "good" by anti-choice standards and want their pregnancies, do NOT all see it the same way. They are no different than women who don't want to be pregnant. They have varying beliefs about what being pregnant means to them.

 

[nota bene]

No - There are two different things, here.

1) Women and babies who have SERIOUS issues - life and death - or extreme situations like being born without a brain.
2) Women who DON'T have serious issues - there is only the decision or circumstance which makes them not want a child. If the child is born, mother would be fine and baby would be fine.

20 weeks and after IS legal - very tragically - IF something SERIOUS is revealed by a DOCTOR. Tragic, but it does happen - very rarely. Now - what i don't understand is why they would have to go to a CLINIC to get one when their OBGYN would/should do such a procedure. (One of those women said they walked through lines of protesters - that's confusing. Perhaps some states have made it 100% illegal even IF life/health is in danger?)

LEGALIZING 20 weeks and after would make it legal for ANYONE to get a late term abortion for ANY reason.

HUGE DIFFERENCE.

I do support saving a mother's life and the choice to end if the child is born with an extreme malady which will likely lead to death before birth or soon after (etc). I do not support late-term in any other sense.

I also support saving the mother's life and also aborting a fetus with catastrophic anomalies. I think an overwhelming number of those who are pro-life would say the same.

But Minnie brought up Dr. Tiller and his late-term abortions. His required second opinion, Kristen Nuehaus, has now lost her medical license because of her rubber-stamping.

Tiller performed late-term abortions on girls who were healthy and normal and whose babies were also healthy and normal. Because at the time there was a clause in Kansas law that allowed late-term abortion in the circumstance of irreversible damage to the mother's mental health, a grand jury was unable to indict Tiller.

But that grand jury did express great concern over this loophole and urged the law to be rewritten, and it was. The fact is that Tiller and Neuhaus used this clause to abort healthy babies. I've done a little reading up today about the "rodeo exception," and I've found the expert testimony of Lisa Gold, M.D., who reviewed Neuhaus's records on 11 patients. Her CV is lengthy and takes up several pages of the PDF I'm linking, and it includes Guttmacher awards.

Tiller and Neuhaus killed viable babies for reasons as unjustifiable as that having a baby would "mess up" the 15-year old mother's barrel-racing activities. Before I read ever again about how late-term abortions are performed only because of legitimate reasons, I expect the person who proffers such an opinion to read this link: http://brownbackistan.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/gold-liza-report.pdf

And I don't care that late-term abortions are rare; they do happen, and they have happened for the most trivial of excuses and for financial gain.

 

[JayDubya]

Ugh... Tiller was a good example of what I'm talking about. What a monster.

 

[SassySmartie]

It's not the content of your thread rather the content of your heart.

Instead hawking for keeping all forms of abortion legal, why not look at the alternatives and practicing a little restraint and personal responsibility.

I'm a bit sensitive to this subject so, FWIW, I hope I didn't come down on you too hard and that you do* have love for the innocent in your heart.

I have been talking about PREVENTION which is the most effective way to reduce the number of abortions. Keeping them legal keeps them safe, banning them only promises more Gosnells out there. If you want to talk about "alternatives" then you should be a strong proponent of comprehensive sex ed, and easy, affordable access to birth control.

As far as "practicing a little restraint and personal responsibility" keep your judgments to yourself. You don't know me and you have absolutely no reason to preach at me about "personal responsibility." Furthermore, restricting access to affordable birth control prevents many women from being "responsible" since no access to birth control means it's pretty difficult to ensure no pregnancy since condoms have a 17% failure rate. Beyond that, such a flippant comment assumes you know the situations a particular woman faces and assumes the misogynistic view that only "loose" women are faced with unplanned/unwanted pregnancy and nothing is further from the truth.

 

[sangha]

I also support saving the mother's life and also aborting a fetus with catastrophic anomalies. I think an overwhelming number of those who are pro-life would say the same.

But Minnie brought up Dr. Tiller and his late-term abortions. His required second opinion, Kristen Nuehaus, has now lost her medical license because of her rubber-stamping.

Tiller performed late-term abortions on girls who were healthy and normal and whose babies were also healthy and normal. Because at the time there was a clause in Kansas law that allowed late-term abortion in the circumstance of irreversible damage to the mother's mental health, a grand jury was unable to indict Tiller.

But that grand jury did express great concern over this loophole and urged the law to be rewritten, and it was. The fact is that Tiller and Neuhaus used this clause to abort healthy babies. I've done a little reading up today about the "rodeo exception," and I've found the expert testimony of Lisa Gold, M.D., who reviewed Neuhaus's records on 11 patients. Her CV is lengthy and takes up several pages of the PDF I'm linking, and it includes Guttmacher awards.

Tiller and Neuhaus killed viable babies for reasons as unjustifiable as that having a baby would "mess up" the 15-year old mother's barrel-racing activities. Before I read ever again about how late-term abortions are performed only because of legitimate reasons, I expect the person who proffers such an opinion to read this link: http://brownbackistan.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/gold-liza-report.pdf

And I don't care that late-term abortions are rare; they do happen, and they have happened for the most trivial of excuses and for financial gain.

Because being only 15 is a "trivial excuse" for ending a pregnancy :screwy

 

[JayDubya]

Because being only 15 is a "trivial excuse" for ending a pregnancy

Why, yes, yes it is.

 

[nota bene]

Because being only 15 is a "trivial excuse" for ending a pregnancy :screwy

Yes, it is. But please don't bother reading the link I've provided; I wouldn't want you to have to consider any facts about what Tiller was up to.

 

[minnie616]

You need to catch up on your reading....


From Operation Rescue:

The eleven records contained one diagnosis of “Anxiety Disorder,” three diagnoses of “Acute Stress Disorder,” six instances of “Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode....

None of those abortions met the standard of “substantial and irreversible” mental health impairments, according to Dr. Paul McHugh, a highly respected expert in psychiatry with Johns Hopkins University Hospital who reviewed ...

The jury found Dr Tiller not guilty of the 19 charges that were brought against him.

 

[sangha]

Yes, it is. But please don't bother reading the link I've provided; I wouldn't want you to have to consider any facts about what Tiller was up to.

I've considered the fact that the Moral Fascists want to punish a 15 year old child with a life-threatening pregnancy because their perverted morals require them to forego compassion.

 

[JayDubya]

If you ever have to ask why we're skeptical about the pro-aborts' exaggerations regarding crazy circumstances and "medical neccessity," you need only look at the records of George Tiller's victims; so many needlessly killed in the name of "medical necessity" that wasn't.

 

[JayDubya]

I've considered the fact that the Moral Fascists want to punish a 15 year old child with a life-threatening pregnancy because their perverted morals require them to forego compassion.

"Life-threatening."

Uh-huh. :liar