The End of Conservatism

[gdgyva]

But has conservatism left the GOP? That's the fundamental question here. One thing is clear, Donald is not a conservative. Will conservatives still support him? And, if they do---are they really conservative?

I am a conservative...always have been

More so on the fiscal side than anything, but a conservative nonetheless

Will I support trump?

Yes...because not to support him means that Hillary gets the nod, and that in my opinion, would be far far worse for our country

Trump is a wildcard...not exactly sure what I am gonna get as a president

But Hillary is a sure fire bad thing.....

 

[calamity]

I am a conservative...always have been

More so on the fiscal side than anything, but a conservative nonetheless

Will I support trump?

Yes...because not to support him means that Hillary gets the nod, and that in my opinion, would be far far worse for our country

Trump is a wildcard...not exactly sure what I am gonna get as a president

But Hillary is a sure fire bad thing.....

Hillary is more conservative than Trump. Trump is a radical. You even admit he is a wildcard.

 

[gdgyva]

Sorry, but that is utter nonsense.

There were seventeen Republicans running against him. Almost every single one of them were demonstrably more conservative than him, including track records voting for conservative causes.

Trump did not win because his opponents were insufficiently conservative. It's because the bitterness at the heart of contemporary cynicism has finally poisoned its own proponents against electoral politics, and because Trump's brownshirts realize that the political system (including the Republican establishment) is not working for them.



That's like saying "I didn't want my barn to burn down, but I hope I can build a better one with the insurance money."

Just having the tag of conservative isn't enough

You have to have personality....to be able to get people to vote for you

Carson was probably the "best" conservative to run in a lot of years....but he was as dry as stale toast

Wasn't presidential, and could never be elected.....

We have a number of great candidates at the state levels....but very few GREAT candidates at the national level who are conservatives, and who actually can bring the GOP together

 

[gdgyva]

He's is conservative whether you like him or not, so yes.

Trump a conservative?

Lmao....

Trump is a lot of things....but conservative will NEVER be one of them

 

[TheGoverness]

Trump a conservative?

Lmao....

Trump is a lot of things....but conservative will NEVER be one of them

Uh, He is a Conservative, despite whether you personally disagree with him or not.

What you're doing is applying a No True Scottsman Fallacy.

 

[gdgyva]

Uh, he is a conservative, whether you personally disagree with him or not.

He isn't a fiscal conservative

He isn't a social conservative

Please tell me what conservative value Trump espouses....

 

[reinoe]

He isn't a fiscal conservative

He isn't a social conservative

Please tell me what conservative value Trump espouses....

He opposes abortion, wants us to keep our guns, he wants to repeal the ACA, he opposes common core, and he's fine with calling islamic terrorists islamic terrorists.

 

[chromium]

He and his idiot voters have convinced me I want nothing more to do with the "GOP".

Bush II was far more presidential and that is saying a lot coming from me

but plenty of dems feel the same about hillary and don't understand how she can follow the guy she lost to. She leads trump by about 10 points yet her favorable rating is in the lowest in decades. If the best we can do is elect the person who will '**** up less' it doesn't bode well for our republic

 

[chromium]

He isn't a fiscal conservative

He isn't a social conservative

Please tell me what conservative value Trump espouses....

so will there be a schism in the party, or will they all throw their weight behind their man?

also, who wants to ruin their career being his running mate? I'm guessing it'll be a female cause trump will be desperate to not appear the sexist pig he is

 

[chromium]

Well, it has taken a hit, if one sees the final contests as a referendum for the heart and direction of the party. But that's only partly true, as Cruz was a very unlikable candidate. This was echoed time and time again in exit polls.

I don't care how great the ideas, if one doesn't have the charisma and likability, the candidate is doomed. This just might befall our Madame Secretary, too!

if she can't inspire anyone in the next 6 months and trump continues to be a disgrace on camera and on twitter (likely), we will have the lowest turnout ever by a large margin

 

[chromium]

I was thinking much the same this morning, and it occurs to me that if Trump had not come along, would those who are voting for him still have voted for whoever the GOP establishment was sending up? Yes, they would indeed.

Why? Because as much as many of them disagreed with many of the GOP's conservative policies, Trump's success even while supporting positions that are NOT liberal strongly indicates that while many in the GOP didn't like the GOP's conservative policies, they despise liberals even more, and will vote against liberals even when they agree with many of the liberals' policies. What Trump did was mix together the liberal policies that so many low-information GOP voters like, along with the deafeningly-obvious dog-whistle white identity politics, and present them as sort of a modern-day Yosemite Sam. His speeches remind me so much of one encounter between Bugs Bunny and Yosemite Sam. Bugs said (in a Teddy Roosevelt imitation), "Speak softly and carry a big stick," to which Yosemite Sam retorted, "Well I speak LOUD! And I carry a BIIIIIIIIIIGGER stick!"

And for some reason the low-information GOP voters are eating it up, never grasping that all he's doing is pretending to be a conservative while actually supporting positions that are certainly not (in the modern understanding of the word) conservative.

well obama pretended to be liberal while never attempting to do anything liberal, so it's about time they experienced similar dissapointment

 

[chromium]

no longer means conservatism. It means bat-**** crazy.

is there a difference?

don't expect me to weep for the newly 'disenfranchised,' when liberals have for decades had practically NO representation in government. Considering this and the current state of partisanship, rigged primaries that hardly anyone votes in, and total corruption, i wouldn't be so sure that these 'abandoned' conservatives do find a voice again. They will have to form their own party...good luck with that

 

[Glen Contrarian]

well obama pretended to be liberal while never attempting to do anything liberal, so it's about time they experienced similar dissapointment

"never attempted to do anything liberal" except for little things like the ACA (which isn't single-payer, but a heck of a lot better (and much more liberal) than what we had), and the repeal of Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell, and the requirement that federal agencies be LGBT-friendly, and the raise of minimum wage for federal employees and employees of federal contractors, and getting us the hell out of Afghanistan and Iraq (yes, we have a few there now, but nothing like before), and keeping us out of other wars, and opening much more of the military to service by women...

...and let's not forget the stimulus which, along with the continuing stimulative effects of quantitative easing, has given us by far the longest streak of private-sector job growth in our nation's history. And then there's the buyout of GM.

And these are just the ones I can name off the top of my head - there's a lot more. He wasn't perfect, but by the numbers, Obama's been one of the five best presidents we've ever had, even though he faced the greatest degree of political opposition of any president since the Civil War.

 

[TheHammer]

Was a stake driven through the heart of conservatism last night? It can be argued that one most certainly has.

Can anybody here articulate a rational in depth definition of true conservatism? I think not! I've challenged hundreds of people to do it. The replies were scattershot absurdities. Name a true American conservative and explain why he/she is a conservative.

 

[Risky Thicket]

is there a difference?

don't expect me to weep for the newly 'disenfranchised,' when liberals have for decades had practically NO representation in government. Considering this and the current state of partisanship, rigged primaries that hardly anyone votes in, and total corruption, i wouldn't be so sure that these 'abandoned' conservatives do find a voice again. They will have to form their own party...good luck with that

I am an Independent and plan to stay that way. The 2 faction corpgov system in no way appeals to me. If the Republican and Democratic parties fold tomorrow I'll be dancing in the street. Neither represent the interests of American citizens.

 

[chromium]

"never attempted to do anything liberal" except for little things like the ACA (which isn't single-payer, but a heck of a lot better (and much more liberal) than what we had), and the repeal of Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell, and the requirement that federal agencies be LGBT-friendly, and the raise of minimum wage for federal employees and employees of federal contractors, and getting us the hell out of Afghanistan and Iraq (yes, we have a few there now, but nothing like before), and keeping us out of other wars, and opening much more of the military to service by women...

...and let's not forget the stimulus which, along with the continuing stimulative effects of quantitative easing, has given us by far the longest streak of private-sector job growth in our nation's history. And then there's the buyout of GM.

And these are just the ones I can name off the top of my head - there's a lot more. He wasn't perfect, but by the numbers, Obama's been one of the five best presidents we've ever had, even though he faced the greatest degree of political opposition of any president since the Civil War.

none of that was liberal - "open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values" - even at the time. Certainly when compared to other parts of the world, it may have been liberal 20 years ago. Hell, single payer would be liberal 50 years ago. DADT? Done in by israel in 1993. Women in the military? Get back to me when they have to sign up for selective service, and i'm pretty sure they were critical to the red army. It's just that america has been so conservative for so long that perspective gets lost.

Now going strictly by the lowly standard of american politics as a measure, everything you mentioned had such huge support before obama ever acted that these can hardly be described as leading. Hillary herself aimed to create universal health care in the early 90s. Her husband tried to the witch hunt of gays in the military back then too. Those were indeed liberal back then. Raising the minimum wage? This has been done dozens of times. The buyout was a corporatist bailout of a company that had begun the trend of massive outsourcing back in the 80s just to reach $8 billion profit instead of $7 billion. The stimulus, ok, immediately after the greatest economic collapse in 80 years, he tried to do something, the new deal II it ain't, but hey, it's something

Would he have acted differently under a more compromising congress that actually put america first? We'll never know, but i doubt it. He never once pushed for single payer for instance

 

[Chomsky]

if she can't inspire anyone in the next 6 months and trump continues to be a disgrace on camera and on twitter (likely), we will have the lowest turnout ever by a large margin

Or on the flip-side, there could be turnout for the "against" votes.

Both these candidates have stratospheric disapproval ratings!

 

[poweRob]

I am an Independent and plan to stay that way. The 2 faction corpgov system in no way appeals to me. If the Republican and Democratic parties fold tomorrow I'll be dancing in the street. Neither represent the interests of American citizens.

I just registered dem to vote in my primary. Right after I vote I'm reregistering Green so that my registration can help them gain ballot access.

 

[Risky Thicket]

I just registered dem to vote in my primary. Right after I vote I'm reregistering Green so that my registration can help them gain ballot access.

Excellent idea, my friend. I'm going to do that very thing tonight. Thanks.

 

[Risky Thicket]

So you are of the impression that the Tea Party wing of the GOP is the "conservative" wing of the GOP. I don't see them as that even in the slightest. I think they are well packaged to pretend to appear that way, but they are corporatists in the worst way. Trying to use government to establish monopolies for the status quo.

Bingo, bingo, bingo!

I would add that there is a tendency for them to be religionists as well. What do we call that? Corpro-religionists? We see it and feel it in a large (and growing) way in Arizona and it ain't pretty.

 

[calamity]

Can anybody here articulate a rational in depth definition of true conservatism? I think not! I've challenged hundreds of people to do it. The replies were scattershot absurdities. Name a true American conservative and explain why he/she is a conservative.

I believe Cruz was pretty darn close to the ideal. He just wasn't likable...or American.

 

[Visbek]

Just having the tag of conservative isn't enough

This is the thing I love about many flavors of political groupings.

Anyone who does not precisely agree with your specific blend of conservatism is "not a conservative" or "not a REAL conservative." No one can possibly survive whatever purity tests y'all demand, and get elected to anything more national than Kentucky.

It's not really a right-left thing, leftist do it too. Tho' as far as I know, the libertarians and Communists are the worst. Anyway....

Carson was probably the "best" conservative to run in a lot of years....but he was as dry as stale toast

lol

Carson has never run for office in his life. He's never had to actually put his principles to any sort of test. He's never been held accountable for his political actions. Even that isn't good enough for some conservatives:

Let me google that for you

We have a number of great candidates at the state levels....

Like who? Brownback? Jindal? I would say Haley, but she voted to take down the Confederate Flag, so obviously she's done... lol

but very few GREAT candidates at the national level who are conservatives, and who actually can bring the GOP together

Dude.

Eighteen Republican candidates this time around. EIGHTEEN.

Conservatives have demanded ideological purity for years, and hasn't gotten a Pure Con on the Republican ticket since Barry Goldwater.

The problem is not a lack of candidates. Seventeen candidates, all with reasonable conservative creds, got resoundingly beaten by a walking comb-over who is the least popular candidate in modern history. 67% unfavorability rating! Net favorability at -37%! Its national heroes, like Palin and Carson, are jokes. It can't even get a single one of its candidates on the Presidential ticket for the past twelve years.

The problem is that conservatism is weak, and best yet, in utter denial about its weakness.

Have fun blaming -- err, convincing yourselves otherwise in your various echo chambers.

 

[Fenton]

No, of course not. It's just been relegated to the back burner while Trumps works on his Populist Nationalism bouillabaisse.

(Made with Brawndo!)

Brawndo has what plants crave, electrolytes ....

 

[SenorXm/Sirius]

Conservatism isn't dying. Nor is the Republican Party.

But it's problem is the 30%-35% of the far right part of conservatives has hijacked the conservative movement and the GOP. No one can adhere to their brand of conservatism, which is that one must be 100% ideological pure, and if they are not they, the far right, has no use for you. It's their way or the highway.

Until the moderate Republicans retake the Party and the Con movement, or the 30% break away and form their own party, the GOP will continue to struggle on the national level and fight among themselves.

I'm very fiscally conservative. But fairly liberal on most social issues. There's absolutely no room for me in today's Republican Party. None.

17-18 GOP candidates started in the primaries. There was not a single GOP candidate that appealed to a Moderate, old time Republican like me.

 

[Fenton]

This is the thing I love about many flavors of political groupings.

Anyone who does not precisely agree with your specific blend of conservatism is "not a conservative" or "not a REAL conservative." No one can possibly survive whatever purity tests y'all demand, and get elected to anything more national than Kentucky.

It's not really a right-left thing, leftist do it too. Tho' as far as I know, the libertarians and Communists are the worst. Anyway....



lol

Carson has never run for office in his life. He's never had to actually put his principles to any sort of test. He's never been held accountable for his political actions. Even that isn't good enough for some conservatives:

Let me google that for you



Like who? Brownback? Jindal? I would say Haley, but she voted to take down the Confederate Flag, so obviously she's done... lol



Dude.

Eighteen Republican candidates this time around. EIGHTEEN.

Conservatives have demanded ideological purity for years, and hasn't gotten a Pure Con on the Republican ticket since Barry Goldwater.

The problem is not a lack of candidates. Seventeen candidates, all with reasonable conservative creds, got resoundingly beaten by a walking comb-over who is the least popular candidate in modern history. 67% unfavorability rating! Net favorability at -37%! Its national heroes, like Palin and Carson, are jokes. It can't even get a single one of its candidates on the Presidential ticket for the past twelve years.

The problem is that conservatism is weak, and best yet, in utter denial about its weakness.

Have fun blaming -- err, convincing yourselves otherwise in your various echo chambers.

Misrepresented, mischaracterized, misunderstood by those who oppose it on principle but not weak.

Conservatives dont define their ideology based on the criticisms of people like you

Its a ideology defined and shaped by truth as opposed to the progresive ideology, which shapes truth to fit its narratives.

If Conservatism was so " weak " you would think that its opponents could have finsihed it off by now.

But they couldn't even mount a successful campaign to counter it in the last midterms where the GOP handed the asses of the Democrats back to them in local, State and Federal elections

31 GOP Governorships, but hey, the GOP is on the ropes.......:roll:

And sure, the GOP routing of the Democrats just 2 years ago maybe wasn't entirely a Conservative victory, but it wasn't a strike in the Win column for the party of the Left, thats for sure.

You people were going turn the bastion of Conservativism that is Texas Blue. We added MORE GOP seats to our State house. We're REDDER

Weak is having to pander, having to promise and having to appeal to the naive via identity politics and divisve narratives.

Hoping to get votes by offering up insubstantial plattitudes, bumper sticker slogans and free stuff.

So keep thinking Conservatism is weak. Keep misjudging your opponents