• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The End of Conservatism

I had a ton of respect for Dole, but I am not sure I would call him a good candidate. He was a good man, but not so good as a candidate.

Perhaps not as a candidate, but I expect he and she would have been better presidents then those that won during the years they tried
 
Conservatism has been defeated by Trump. It just hasn't been ended. Hopefully he loses, and we can rebuild.

No, again, this is one political position. Bush wasn't a conservative either. There is no need to be so fatalist.
 
Nope.



This forum has proven that you can argue anything.

The GOP isn't going anywhere. It may change. It may fracture. It may do any number of things, but it ain't going anywhere.

But has conservatism left the GOP? That's the fundamental question here. One thing is clear, Donald is not a conservative. Will conservatives still support him? And, if they do---are they really conservative?
 
Conservatism has been defeated by Trump. It just hasn't been ended. Hopefully he loses, and we can rebuild.

I believe this is 100% true. Trump took conservatism to the wood shed and he came out of it alone.
 
I believe this is 100% true. Trump took conservatism to the wood shed and he came out of it alone.

Trump was not in a contest with conservatism. He ran against people. Voters chose him over those other people.
 
But has conservatism left the GOP? That's the fundamental question here. One thing is clear, Donald is not a conservative. Will conservatives still support him? And, if they do---are they really conservative?

Maybe conservatives aren't the monolithic, black and white constructs you think they are. It is very possible to be a conservative and a pragmatist. Nobody ever gets everything they want. I think conservatives have a clearer view of what they have in Trump than pretty much anyone else. Conservatives will support or not support Trump entirely based on how their own priorities match Trump.
 
He and his idiot voters have convinced me I want nothing more to do with the "GOP".

There is something very ugly that emerged when Donald took over the party's helm. At this point those who disagree with what he stands for have few choices:

1. Suck it up and join him to defeat Hillary or Bernie
2. Bolt and form a new party.
3. Fight to defeat him and the party in November in a last ditch effort to purge the insurgents.
 
It is also important to note that the GOP is not conservatism. One is a political party, one is an ideology. Not the same thing. Even if the GOP where to collapse, conservatism would still be around.

I get that. Words matter. Sorry. :3oops: Anyways, I usually conflate (big word alert) the terms in these kinds of discussions.
 
Was a stake driven through the heart of conservatism last night? It can be argued that one most certainly has.
Being that the GOP is running a Liberal as their candidate I think anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together knows the answer to the question, now ask a Trumpbot the same questions and they will all claim to be good Conservatives:lamo
 
I get that. Words matter. Sorry. :3oops: Anyways, I usually conflate (big word alert) the terms in these kinds of discussions.

Don't feel bad. I get pedantic and anal retentive in these type discussions.
 
Someone is searching too hard for a silver lining, and exaggerating it, but the broader point is true - we know who everyone is, now.


Donald Trump Is the Greatest Thing to Happen to Conservatism


...The inconvenient truth that few conservatives have wanted to address is that for decades, the movement has been rank with charlatans. True, there’s always been a firmly conservative activist and intellectual core and genuinely principled politicians to keep the ship righted. But a shockingly high percentage of conservative pundits are simply frauds at their core... What conservatism needed was a litmus test. A candidate so obviously unelectable, so obviously factually challenged, and so obviously devoid of a conservative bone in his body that anyone with a genuine interest in advancing the movement would recoil. But at the same time, that candidate would superficially recite buzzwords and– most importantly– attract a large following of potential consumers. The movement needed a flashpoint that would force our self-appointed shepherds to make an obvious choice: principles, or a payday?

Love or hate Shapiro’s rhetoric, he chose unemployment rather than betraying his principles. Coulter really was only looking to pay for her Manhattan high-rise apartment, and hey, sometimes that requires some unabashed white supremacy.

It was at times surprising who ended up on what side of the battle lines. No one intimately familiar with the conservative movement was shocked where Sarah Palin and Megyn Kelly landed. But who would have thought that Glenn Beck would end up on the side of sanity, and that Chris Christie would not? Who saw that Eric Erickson would be a man of principles, and Ben Carson would be open about the fact that he sold his to the highest bidder?

The frauds are out in the open. I’m not talking about the Republican politicians and operatives whose livelihoods depend on party loyalty and will inevitably be dragged kicking and screaming into the fold. I’m talking about the “““thought””” leaders who actively endorsed and pushed for Trump when there was still a chance at blunting his momentum. There’s no need to name them all, because everyone knows who they are: they’re the ones writing IN ALL CAPS ABOUT MEXICO on Twitter....

Trump is the greatest thing to happen to conservatism because he is the cleansing forest fire, the Great Flood, the calamity we need. Conservatism will survive Trump, as it survived Goldwater’s loss and Nixon’s shame. The bad news is that’ll take years of rebuilding and getting back into voters’ good graces. But the good news is that every conservative bottom-feeder has shoved themselves in Trump’s clown car and that car’s headed straight for a cliff...
 
Maybe conservatives aren't the monolithic, black and white constructs you think they are. It is very possible to be a conservative and a pragmatist. Nobody ever gets everything they want. I think conservatives have a clearer view of what they have in Trump than pretty much anyone else. Conservatives will support or not support Trump entirely based on how their own priorities match Trump.

Yeah, you can redefine "conservative" and then steal the title.

Trump is not conservative. Conservatives do not joke about having sex with their daughters, promise to expand government, stand against free trade, brag about bagging chicks...

lol---in fact, I challenge you to defend Trump's conservative bona fides. Give me three conservative ideals you believe Trump actually represents.
 
There is something very ugly that emerged when Donald took over the party's helm. At this point those who disagree with what he stands for have few choices:

1. Suck it up and join him to defeat Hillary or Bernie
2. Bolt and form a new party.
3. Fight to defeat him and the party in November in a last ditch effort to purge the insurgents.
Me thinks the GOP leadership will be taking No. 3, but on the sly. Hopefully there will be a purge next year, Both Parties could use one and the GOP should lead the way, get back to their principles and shun the outsiders that use the GOP to get elected, Trump is not the first to try and will not be the last if they do not address it.
 
No, again, this is one political position. Bush wasn't a conservative either. There is no need to be so fatalist.

I'm not being fatalist - I'm being realistic. Conservatism was pitched to the GOP base, and a plurality decided to reject it. It got beaten. :shrug:

The question becomes - does Conservatism turn in on itself, in a civil war, and devour itself.
 
But has conservatism left the GOP?

I don't think so.

That's the fundamental question here. One thing is clear, Donald is not a conservative. Will conservatives still support him? And, if they do---are they really conservative?

A voter (any ideology) supports a candidate that most closely follows his/hers beliefs or who they think most closely follows their parties beliefs. For conservatives if that's Trump this time around then so be it.

This talk of Trump defeating conservatism is silly talk IMHO. After Shillary clubs him in November he'l skulk away and be yesterdays news.
 
Was a stake driven through the heart of conservatism last night? It can be argued that one most certainly has.
Well, it has taken a hit, if one sees the final contests as a referendum for the heart and direction of the party. But that's only partly true, as Cruz was a very unlikable candidate. This was echoed time and time again in exit polls.

I don't care how great the ideas, if one doesn't have the charisma and likability, the candidate is doomed. This just might befall our Madame Secretary, too!
 
I'm not being fatalist - I'm being realistic. Conservatism was pitched to the GOP base, and a plurality decided to reject it. It got beaten. :shrug:

The question becomes - does Conservatism turn in on itself, in a civil war, and devour itself.

Not exactly, no. Elections are popularity contests that are more about personality and perception than ideology.
 
Me thinks the GOP leadership will be taking No. 3, but on the sly. Hopefully there will be a purge next year, Both Parties could use one and the GOP should lead the way, get back to their principles and shun the outsiders that use the GOP to get elected, Trump is not the first to try and will not be the last if they do not address it.

It might be happening already. Kasich just bowed out. It's like they are all quietly walking away.

Maybe no one but the Trumpbots shows up to the convention in Cleveland.
 
there wasnt a good conservative running against him....hence he won
Sorry, but that is utter nonsense.

There were seventeen Republicans running against him. Almost every single one of them were demonstrably more conservative than him, including track records voting for conservative causes.

Trump did not win because his opponents were insufficiently conservative. It's because the bitterness at the heart of contemporary cynicism has finally poisoned its own proponents against electoral politics, and because Trump's brownshirts realize that the political system (including the Republican establishment) is not working for them.


trump is not a conservative....never will be

but he is a flame that hopefully will ignite the kindling and put some fire back into the GOP
That's like saying "I didn't want my barn to burn down, but I hope I can build a better one with the insurance money."
 
Well, it has taken a hit, if one sees the final contests as a referendum for the heart and direction of the party. But that's only partly true, as Cruz was a very unlikable candidate. This was echoed time and time again in exit polls.

I don't care how great the ideas, if one doesn't have the charisma and likability, the candidate is doomed. This just might befall our Madame Secretary, too!

She does have a hard time winning hearts and minds. I mean, come on, she can't even beat a 75 year old socialist who isn't even a registered democrat. :)
 
In your opinion who was the last "good" GOP candidate to run for the nomination (not necessarily win it)?
I'm gonna guess Cicero

;)
 
Was a stake driven through the heart of conservatism last night? It can be argued that one most certainly has.

I was thinking much the same this morning, and it occurs to me that if Trump had not come along, would those who are voting for him still have voted for whoever the GOP establishment was sending up? Yes, they would indeed.

Why? Because as much as many of them disagreed with many of the GOP's conservative policies, Trump's success even while supporting positions that are NOT liberal strongly indicates that while many in the GOP didn't like the GOP's conservative policies, they despise liberals even more, and will vote against liberals even when they agree with many of the liberals' policies. What Trump did was mix together the liberal policies that so many low-information GOP voters like, along with the deafeningly-obvious dog-whistle white identity politics, and present them as sort of a modern-day Yosemite Sam. His speeches remind me so much of one encounter between Bugs Bunny and Yosemite Sam. Bugs said (in a Teddy Roosevelt imitation), "Speak softly and carry a big stick," to which Yosemite Sam retorted, "Well I speak LOUD! And I carry a BIIIIIIIIIIGGER stick!"

And for some reason the low-information GOP voters are eating it up, never grasping that all he's doing is pretending to be a conservative while actually supporting positions that are certainly not (in the modern understanding of the word) conservative.
 
Yeah, you can redefine "conservative" and then steal the title.

Trump is not conservative. Conservatives do not joke about having sex with their daughters, promise to expand government, stand against free trade, brag about bagging chicks...

lol---in fact, I challenge you to defend Trump's conservative bona fides. Give me three conservative ideals you believe Trump actually represents.

I never said Trump was conservative. Conservatives don't only vote for conservatives any more than American socialists only vote for socialists. Many socialists with vote for Hillary Clinton and many conservatives will vote for Trump, not because they think Trump is conservative or Hillary is a socialist but because in the given race their ideology has the most in common with their chosen candidate.
 
It might be happening already. Kasich just bowed out. It's like they are all quietly walking away.

Maybe no one but the Trumpbots shows up to the convention in Cleveland.
Now THAT would be funny to watch. I do not think the real Republicans have the nerve to do it.
 
Back
Top Bottom