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Tesla unveils $35,000-Model 3 with range of 215 miles

Cephus said:
Sure, but what do people who live in apartments, who have to park in parking lots with no access to electrical outlets, do? I think it's bad enough with all the asshats who think they get to plug their phones in to other people's power any time they want, are these morons going to try to jack other people's power for their cars now too?
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Not buy one lol.
A fair criticism though.
 
poweRob said:
Find them and bring them here. I think you'll find that a hard chore to do.
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Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies - LA Times

Nevada has agreed to provide Tesla with $1.3 billion in incentives to help build a massive battery factory near Reno.

The Palo Alto company has also collected more than $517 million from competing automakers by selling environmental credits.

They shored up the deal with an agreement to give Tesla $195 million in transferable tax credits,

National Review Online

Tesla Is Just a Winning Stimulus as Fourth U.S. Automaker Emerges - TheStreet

Not exactly a hidden item here. Musks govt sponsorship is well known for all his enterprises. The question is how much would they cost without the govt preference.
 
jonny5 said:
Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies - LA Times

Nevada has agreed to provide Tesla with $1.3 billion in incentives to help build a massive battery factory near Reno.

The Palo Alto company has also collected more than $517 million from competing automakers by selling environmental credits.

They shored up the deal with an agreement to give Tesla $195 million in transferable tax credits,

National Review Online

Tesla Is Just a Winning Stimulus as Fourth U.S. Automaker Emerges - TheStreet

Not exactly a hidden item here. Musks govt sponsorship is well known for all his enterprises. The question is how much would they cost without the govt preference.
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Probably about the same as every other major company of the same size. The Nevada tax bennies were their bid to have that battery plant built there. Here in New Mexico we were fighting to have it built here. Nevada won. This happens all the time in bids between states for biz to move and isn't just a Tesla thing.

A lot of the other money you are talking about are the credits to they buyer which you deferred in your earlier post...

jonny5 said:
Those are credits to the buyer. What about the billions in grants, loans, etc that go to Tesla?
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And Musk has other businesses like solar city and space X which is also lumped into that government subsidy article. Not just tesla.

The loans from what I understand where paid back nine years early.

Elon Musk’s “Summer of Revenge Tour” continues. His electric-car company, Tesla Motors, just cut the government a $451.8 million check, which means that Tesla has paid off its entire Department of Energy loan plus interest. “Following this payment, Tesla will be the only American car company to have fully repaid the government,” the company boasted (emphasis Tesla’s).

link...​

Conservatives tend to get pissed off at such business only when it is alt energy or more liberal business ideas. These things are happening to standard conservative businesses all the time without a peep.
 
poweRob said:
Probably about the same as every other major company of the same size. The Nevada tax bennies were their bid to have the company built there. Here in New Mexico we were fighting to have it built here. Nevada won. This happens all the time and isn't just a Tesla thing.

A lot of the other money you are talking about are the credits to they buyer which you deferred in your earlier post...



The loans from what I understand where paid back nine years early.

Elon Musk’s “Summer of Revenge Tour” continues. His electric-car company, Tesla Motors, just cut the government a $451.8 million check, which means that Tesla has paid off its entire Department of Energy loan plus interest. “Following this payment, Tesla will be the only American car company to have fully repaid the government,” the company boasted (emphasis Tesla’s).

link...​

Conservatives tend to get pissed off at such business only when it is alt energy or more liberal business ideas. These things are happening to standard conservative businesses all the time without a peep.
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Im not a conservative, and this is about Tesla. Not a fan of buyer credits either. Why should someone get to pay less taxes for buying one car over the other? That is unfair.
 
jonny5 said:
Im not a conservative, and this is about Tesla. Not a fan of buyer credits either. Why should someone get to pay less taxes for buying one car over the other? That is unfair.
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There are a lot of negative hidden costs on gas guzzlers like dirty air, dirty water, health costs related to pollution, national security costs in defending foreign oil. A smarter policy would be to eliminate all subsidies for both renewable and oil and implement a carbon tax at real cost and lowering other taxes to compensate for it. I believe that is what Musk favors. Also the LA article is full of errors. Musk responded to it. Likely can google his response.
 
I think Tesla is going to reach their fremont capacity of 500,000 cars a year with the Model 3. What like 200,000 pre-orders the first 24 hrs. The style is not for me but the look is good to reach those goals.
 
DA60 said:
:roll:

No, it has not been released. They are taking pre-orders and will not be released until late 2017...at the earliest.
And until they actually build the thing AND sell it for 35K, I will not believe it as they have made TONS of promises in the past.

'After almost a decade of teases, promises, and back-of-the-envelope calculations from journalists and fans the world afar, Tesla Motors has finally unveiled the Model 3, a $35,000 product that aims to bring high-end electric cars to the masses'

Tesla Motors unveils its long-awaited $35K Model 3 electric car | ExtremeTech

What the 'f' are you babbling about? Calm down or you might wet yourself.

A) I am not anti-Tesla...I am anti-Tesla getting massive government subsidies AND that they have never turned a profit.

B) I love their cars, I just don't like their prices. I would love it if they could sell a 35K, 200+ mile car...and 35K WITHOUT government subsidies or tax breaks.

C) Where EXACTLY did I say that EV's were unviable? And where EXACTLY did I say that Tesla would never build this car?

Before you start foaming at the mouth with accusations...why don't you actually see if what you are spewing forth actually took place...DUH.
For such a normally reasonable individual...you sure seem to drop a ton of brain cells over this subject...why, I have no idea...nor do I much care.

Next time you want to vent on to someone over your precious Tesla Motors...find someone else. I have better things to do then to have to correct your totally erroneous accusations over some company you have an unhealthy and bizarre love for.

Again..why? I do not know.
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You know you've talked **** from the very beginning. Just search through your post history mentioning the word Tesla. You complained over and over again that they could NEVER exist without massive subsidies and have never turned a profit. They have never REPORTED profit, because they've reinvested every penny back into manufacturing so that they can get the infrastructure to actually build cheaper cars.

You, among others, complained that 100k for a Tesla was this horrible price and you'd love to see it get down to 35k like they promised, yet here we are and you're still complaining. They've done something revolutionary that no other car company was willing to even touch. I'm sure when they're producing cars for 20k you'll be here complaining that it's not 10k.

As Threegoofs pointed out, people don't pay 100k for a car to get 7.5k in tax breaks. They paid that much for a car because it's amazing and it's revolutionary. This is a brand new industry and every single sentence you type shouldn't be a complaint.

DA60 said:
Ditto.

People seem to forget that Tesla has never made a profit and only exists/survives thanks to average Joe taxpayer money so that they can (so far) built great cars for the rich.

I love their cars, but until they can turn a profit without government assistance...I am suspect about Tesla Motors.
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Like this stupid nonsense for example. You let your political beliefs enrage you past seeing what's actually happening. They are not selling cars at loss, they are reinvesting the profits. That is completely and entirely different than a failing business propped up by taxpayers, as you can't stop talking about.

Nations worldwide are giving tax breaks to companies willing to invest in green technology because it's a worldwide imperative that we do so. Taking advantage of modest tax breaks that any other company could receive is not some terrible tragedy or faux pas.
 
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Harry Guerrilla said:
Not buy one lol.
A fair criticism though.
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But the EV advocates are pretending that EVs are the future when clearly, a huge percentage of the population can't use them if they wanted to. There are massive downsides that they don't want to talk about.
 
Cephus said:
But the EV advocates are pretending that EVs are the future when clearly, a huge percentage of the population can't use them if they wanted to. There are massive downsides that they don't want to talk about.
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True.
I wanted one because I'm lazy, didn't want to stop and get gas.

The local power plants here are coal fired, which is pretty bad for the environment.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
True.
I wanted one because I'm lazy, didn't want to stop and get gas.

The local power plants here are coal fired, which is pretty bad for the environment.
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But you don't mind waiting hours for it to charge? I mean, what happens when you have to go somewhere right now and have no charge on the battery?
 
Fearandloathing said:
It has been many month since I heard the report, a full hour radio show. One, at this time most gad powered vehicles have a very small footprint, and with increasing regulations the output is lowering.
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Great, no reference for any claim, sidestep the lifetime carbon output....and places the cause of improvements (mileage/emissions) on regs...

Taking into account my original post, then add the footprint of the replacement battery every three years, there is very little if any saving. At this time.
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I have never seen ANY manufacturer have failure rates for ev battery packs in that range...wtf are you talking about? That level would bring up all sorts recall action and court cases, let alone economically doom a vehicle and the manufacturer.

What bothers me is that it is fairly obvious the hybrid is a very effective vehicle in the transition to what will ultimately be all electric, but the focus is not on improving battery life, but in this case simply making this electric car more palatable to the consumer. 200 miles range is fine for a city dweller and running errands, but a true solution demands higher than that, much higher
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Yer conflating hybrid and ev ranges, and trust me, the manufacturers are very much focused on battery tech improvements.

That, and north American governments and corporation need to open their pockets for some decent research into battery life; the Conservatives here killed a local program and a similar one in Seattle hasn't gotten off the ground. We are graduating experts in this field and they can't find work
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Koch brothers getting ready to take down electric vehicles
 
poweRob said:
Only a couple years or so have they been putting these in. Pretty impressive how many have popped up so quickly. I've not seen one in real life but then again there isn't one in my town.

I don't know how you think petrol can be cleaner... If you are talking life of the materials then don't forget to include the fossil fuel extraction. Then the refining down there in cancer alley Louisiana. Then the transport of the fuel. And THEN the emissions from your own tailpipe on top of all that.

That way it's more of an apples to apples comparison.
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And don't forget the strip mining for battery elements and inefficiencies in energy conversions, and since they still use fossil fuels to charge (fossil fuels are over 2/3's of our energy production), you'll still have to include all that for battery powered cars.

It'll get cleaner, but people think that these electric cars are oh so environmentally friendly but don't really dig deeper than the surface.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
For me that's not common.
I generally keep a pretty stable schedule, but I would of had a gas car available.
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But most people can't just keep multiple cars around. If a gas-powered car works, why have an electric at all? If you have to have a gas-powered car to get around the inherent limitations of the electric car, then it's not ready for prime time.
 
Cephus said:
Just last weekend, we went somewhere on vacation and drove far more than 215 miles. There would have been no chance to plug in a car during that time. So what do people who routinely drive long distances do? Buy a real car, of course!
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Or take the trip at a leisurely 150 miles a day.
 
laska said:
There are a lot of negative hidden costs on gas guzzlers like dirty air, dirty water, health costs related to pollution, national security costs in defending foreign oil. A smarter policy would be to eliminate all subsidies for both renewable and oil and implement a carbon tax at real cost and lowering other taxes to compensate for it. I believe that is what Musk favors. Also the LA article is full of errors. Musk responded to it. Likely can google his response.
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Implementing imaginary costs is just as bad as real subsidies. And Musk obviously favors as much govt money as he can get.
 
jonny5 said:
Implementing imaginary costs is just as bad as real subsidies. And Musk obviously favors as much govt money as he can get.
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They are not imaginary. And a carbon tax is better than subsidies because while both help change negative to society behaviors to positive ones, one takes from government revenue, the other adds to it. A more elegant market solution to transitioning to a renewable economy. As Musk has pointed out, it was the GOP that used this market solution to battle the acid rain problem under the first Bush and it incentivized industry to quickly come up with new technologies to solve the problem.
 
Cephus said:
That's for a hybrid. We're talking about pure electrics.
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Best of both worlds alternative. Pure electric for short commutes, have the hybrid kick in for the long haul.
 
laska said:
They are not imaginary. And a carbon tax is better than subsidies because while both help change negative to society behaviors to positive ones, one takes from government revenue, the other adds to it. A more elegant market solution to transitioning to a renewable economy. As Musk has pointed out, it was the GOP that used this market solution to battle the acid rain problem under the first Bush and it incentivized industry to quickly come up with new technologies to solve the problem.
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The judgment about negative behavior is indeed imaginary.
 
poweRob said:
Finally. Chevy is coming out with the Chevy Bolt probably before this Tesla and has around the same price and mileage range as well.

Tesla unveils $35,000-Model 3 with range of 215 miles

Tesla Motors gave a sneak preview Thursday of its Model 3 sedan, saying more than 130,000 people had ordered the car, even though it is more than a year away from production.​
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No offense towards electronical automajigs but these were supposed to be the next big thing, in 1834, fastfoward to 2016, and the are still way behind internal combustion engines which are actually newer than electric car. So after around 180 years no one still has these very practical, they still have low range, cost way too much. and have few charging stations.

How can something that has been in developement and advancement since 1834 still not be competitive, maybe people just ovverrate the possibilities of electric cars, maybe they need another 50 or 100 years to catch up to where internal combustion engines were 100 years ago.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
The build quality of Chevies have been junk is the last few years.
I've been avoiding them.
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They do use cheap flimsy parts. It rather annoying. I still like my Impala overall.
 
Maybe the Tesla 3 will be a viable car for me to but in a year or two? I would buy a Tesla S if they weren't so expensive. The "S" costs 1/3rd of the price of a really nice house here.
 
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