Tesla unveils $35,000-Model 3 with range of 215 miles

[Ikari]

Coal and fossil fuels are nose-diving while natural gas and renewables are escalating in reverse.

Natural gas is a fossile fuel. The total sum of renewable energy is close to 7% of our energy production. Until baterry tech improves (energy storage), renewable sources won't grow into anything more substantial than ~10%.

 

[poweRob]

Natural gas is a fossile fuel. The total sum of renewable energy is close to 7% of our energy production. Until baterry tech improves (energy storage), renewable sources won't grow into anything more substantial than ~10%.

Yes I caught that and edited my post to say petroleum instead of fossil fuel.

 

[poweRob]

Natural gas is a fossile fuel. The total sum of renewable energy is close to 7% of our energy production. Until baterry tech improves (energy storage), renewable sources won't grow into anything more substantial than ~10%.

We will eclipse 10% renewables soon.

 

[matchlight]

The main drawback of any battery-powered car is that the "energy density" of batteries is relatively low. A gallon of gasoline or diesel fuel has about 120,000 Btu, enough energy to heat about 150 gallons of water by 100 degrees F. And that gallon of fuel weighs only six or seven pounds, while not taking up much volume. Even if only 20-25% of the energy in the fuel goes into moving the car, one hundred pounds of fuel will do a lot of moving. But the same one hundred pounds of batteries contains only a small fraction as much energy. And the car has to drag all that dead weight around with it, accelerating it and lugging it up grades. Some of the energy expended to do that can be recaptured through regenerative braking, but part is still lost.

 

[Carjosse]

Coal accounts for something like 1/3 of our energy production. Something like 2/3s is from fossils fuels. Our worst technology, energy wise, is battery technology. Storing energy, we're terrible at it. Turns out the best form of energy storage we have to this date is pumping water uphill.

So we're taking something we're terrible at, instead of using gas we use coal and other fossile fuels. I don't think that overall we're really doing anything grand with electric vehicles. When we improve energy production and storage, then i think if will start to become more impressive and will have a chance to actually make a positive difference.

That is why nuclear is the best option. it produces a crap ton of energy with very little environmental impact.

 

[poweRob]

That is why nuclear is the best option. it produces a crap ton of energy with very little environmental impact.

very little environmental impact? humans cannot co-exist wherever any nuclear waste is put for the rest of our history.

 

[Ikari]

We will eclipse 10% renewables soon.

It will hover around there for a while though. Some states may be able to get away with more. Colorado wants to really have renewable energy as a major contributor (right now it’s mostly coal) to its generation. It can likely do it because it’s sunny and windy all the time here, and in Wyoming (were a lot of our energy production comes from as well). Due to the environment here, we can pull it off more successfully.

But the problem is always going to be (until we solve our energy storage problem) peak production times vs. peak usage times. You cannot predict the peak production times of certain renewable sources. Solar, sure, that’s going to be when the sun’s out. But on cloudy days you won’t produce as much. But things like wind, it may not be. And you cannot generate the electricity sometime during off hours and save it for later. It’s the major problem of all our energy storage as it would be more efficient if we could do our major generation at off hours, store the energy until it’s needed and send it out to the grid as necessary. But without good storage techniques, that’s going to be an issue.

I don’t think this is a forever problem, I do think we will get there and if we keep pushing and investing in the development of alternate and renewable energy sources, we’ll be able to make some great strides. We’re just not at that point now where we can aggregate it over the entire US energy grid to large levels. I’m not saying we should stagnate on fossil fuels, we should always push forward and make new technologies, learn, adapt, and grow. Humanity cannot progress through stagnation, it’s just slow death. We should push, we should get to new technologies.

As it stands, Nuclear power (which accounts for about 20% of our aggregate energy generation) is the safest, cleanest, most reliable form of energy production. There’s other stuff on the horizon. I really think that within 15 – 20 years we’re going to see proof-of-concept for commercially viable fusion generation. Laser-assisted fusion has already been proven in the lab on the very small scale (a few atoms), but it’s been done. It needs to be scaled up, and I think that is a solvable problem. Trending in the right direction, I would just say don’t expect miracles right now. Not on the aggregate scale.

As this relates to electric cars, it has the double whammy. First off, most of our energy is fossil fuels, and that’s what an electric car is going to consume. Secondly, battery technology is pitiful at this stage. Matchlight highlights some of the issues with it. So we are using old energy sources and terrible storage sources and trying to make a commercial vehicle from them. It’s why I’m not over the hills with electric vehicles yet. It’s not to say that it can’t get there, but it is to say that we’re not there yet. Keep plugging away (haha), invest in the science and engineering and we’ll get there.

Unfortunately, we’re more concerned with blowing up jerks in the Middle East than we are with science and engineering at home.

 

[Ikari]

very little environmental impact? humans cannot co-exist wherever any nuclear waste is put for the rest of our history.

The amount of nuclear waste is exceptionally small, and it can be put in mines and other places such that the increase of radiation in an area is negligible. Carjosse is right, currently Nuclear power is our safest, cleanest, most reliable form of energy production.

 

[eohrnberger]

Even at $35k it's still not anything for major oil companies to be worried about. That's still $15K more than a gas sedan. People will endure a lot just to save 10 cents on a cola, they will endure just about anything to save $15k.

I think that the sales price is only part of the picture WRT cost to the consumer.

You don't have to buy gas for it, that's major savings over the useful life of the vehicle. You don't have to change it's oil, that pretty big deal too when you have to change 4-6 quarts of engine oil every 5K-8K miles, and also pay the mechanic to do it.

On the flip side, you will probably have to buy a new set of expensive batteries around the 5 year mark, at least so I understand.

At $35K and avoiding those expenses assuming a useful life of 10 years, the consumer may very well be out ahead once the up front costs are paid.

Over all, it's the weight that's probably killing the range. Make it out of all carbon fiber and probably lose a ton of weight, and gain that in rage and performance.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Now they just need to get their cars down to the 15k - 20k range to be competitive.

None of the electric cars at the moment are value for money - if anyone can crack 1) making the costs similar to similar petrol engined cars 2) making them look like something you'd get into and enjoy just sitting in.

The EV-1 looked like a sad sack of a car but this one - takes the biscuit for ugliest electric car. (Toyota Mirai)

 

[PoS]

very little environmental impact? humans cannot co-exist wherever any nuclear waste is put for the rest of our history.

Speak for yourself, Rob. If there ever was a nuclear car for sale, I'd buy it!

 

[Fearandloathing]

I think that the sales price is only part of the picture WRT cost to the consumer.

You don't have to buy gas for it, that's major savings over the useful life of the vehicle. You don't have to change it's oil, that pretty big deal too when you have to change 4-6 quarts of engine oil every 5K-8K miles, and also pay the mechanic to do it.

On the flip side, you will probably have to buy a new set of expensive batteries around the 5 year mark, at least so I understand.

At $35K and avoiding those expenses assuming a useful life of 10 years, the consumer may very well be out ahead once the up front costs are paid.

Over all, it's the weight that's probably killing the range. Make it out of all carbon fiber and probably lose a ton of weight, and gain that in rage and performance.

You seem to have forgotten thew cost of charging. It may not be much now....


And from what I have read, three years is about the life of the best batteries, the last cost of replacement was almost as much as this car

 

[Carjosse]

very little environmental impact? humans cannot co-exist wherever any nuclear waste is put for the rest of our history.

That is why we put it where no one will ever go, like a very very deep hole in the ground. I would call it very little environmental impact because it produces comparatively very little waste.

 

[eohrnberger]

You seem to have forgotten thew cost of charging. It may not be much now....


And from what I have read, three years is about the life of the best batteries, the last cost of replacement was almost as much as this car

Hey FAL. Yeah, right now the electricity is affordable. Killing off all the coal mines and the ever elevating air quality standards perhaps even killing off natural gas generation would definitely increase the electrical cost and therefore the charging cost.

Only 3 years for the battery pack? That's very worrisome to EVs, and would seem to make the hybrid more advantageous. Now just think of all the Nickle and other heavy metals that need to be mined and refined to produce the battery packs, all the while polluting the environment, you may very well be better off running a gas car.

 

[Jack Fabulous]

very little environmental impact? humans cannot co-exist wherever any nuclear waste is put for the rest of our history.

Maybe we need to look outside of our own planet where co-existence would be a nonissue?

 

[poweRob]

Speak for yourself, Rob. If there ever was a nuclear car for sale, I'd buy it!

I've read about those actually...

Thorium-Fueled Automobile Engine Needs Refueling Once a Century - Industry Tap

 

[Absentglare]

Maybe we need to look outside of our own planet where co-existence would be a nonissue?

We'd still exist within a system that has maintenance requirements.

We require habitability and sustenance.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Hey FAL. Yeah, right now the electricity is affordable. Killing off all the coal mines and the ever elevating air quality standards perhaps even killing off natural gas generation would definitely increase the electrical cost and therefore the charging cost.

Only 3 years for the battery pack? That's very worrisome to EVs, and would seem to make the hybrid more advantageous. Now just think of all the Nickle and other heavy metals that need to be mined and refined to produce the battery packs, all the while polluting the environment, you may very well be better off running a gas car.

I learned the following in a live speech from a noted specialist in ecology.

It begins by mining the nickle in northern Ontario. It is shipped down the great lakes and across the Atlantic to Ireland, where some very nasty work goes on, then to Germany to be incorporated into and Engine and Drive train, which is then shipped to Asia to be finally installed into a car. The finished product is then loaded on another ship and sent to markets all over the world, but primarily back in North America.

Guess what is the actual "carbon footprint" on electric and hybrid cars

 

[Lovebug]

I wanted an electric car, so don't take this negatively.
I don't think the mileage listed is realistic.
It's going to be terrain and temperature based.

I almost bought a Nissan Leaf, but after seeing realistic reviews, the advertised mileage was more than real world.

I like the concept, and the idea that the original Volt gave you a wider range, and was not limited to electric range only.
I have since spoken to many Volt owners, and they are surprised how well it works. The only negative they reported was that it is almost too quiet, so they have to be extra aware.

 

[eohrnberger]

I learned the following in a live speech from a noted specialist in ecology.

It begins by mining the nickle in northern Ontario. It is shipped down the great lakes and across the Atlantic to Ireland, where some very nasty work goes on, then to Germany to be incorporated into and Engine and Drive train, which is then shipped to Asia to be finally installed into a car. The finished product is then loaded on another ship and sent to markets all over the world, but primarily back in North America.

Guess what is the actual "carbon footprint" on electric and hybrid cars

Exactly. Exactly why electric and hybrid cars need to be made in the US by US manufacturers, to keep their manufacturing carbon footprint down more.
(Hell, I like it!)

 

[Jack Fabulous]

We'd still exist within a system that has maintenance requirements.

We require habitability and sustenance.

I meant to look for a way to dispose of the waste outside of the planet.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

I learned the following in a live speech from a noted specialist in ecology.

It begins by mining the nickle in northern Ontario. It is shipped down the great lakes and across the Atlantic to Ireland, where some very nasty work goes on, then to Germany to be incorporated into and Engine and Drive train, which is then shipped to Asia to be finally installed into a car. The finished product is then loaded on another ship and sent to markets all over the world, but primarily back in North America.

Guess what is the actual "carbon footprint" on electric and hybrid cars

Okay, the manufacturing of an ev is a bit higher, so tell me, do both gas and and ev cars just sit on a dealer lot.....or is there a lifetime carbon output to consider?

Isn't that the point, ultimately?

 

[Absentglare]

I meant to look for a way to dispose of the waste outside of the planet.

Oh- sorry, my mistake !!

 

[PoS]

I've read about those actually...

[url175http://www.industrytap.com/thorium-fueled-automobile-engine-needs-refueling-once-a-century/15649]Thorium-Fueled Automobile Engine Needs Refueling Once a Century - Industry Tap[/url]

I wouldnt mind getting a car that uses weaponized plutonium or depleted uranium as fuel actually. :mrgreen:

 

[Fearandloathing]

Exactly. Exactly why electric and hybrid cars need to be made in the US by US manufacturers, to keep their manufacturing carbon footprint down more.
(Hell, I like it!)

Well, you see it is a matter of whose technology you use. right now American technology is the trailing edge. I believe we are going to see great advancements in hybrid cars for the foreseeable future which will make them predominant. Let's face it, we are a long way from saying "hey kids, let's drive to the rockies" with full electric cars. At most we will see them in urban areas where it will be easy to set up recharge stations in parking lots etc.

But we are not addressing the real problem, trucks and buses. In Vancouver about 50% of the buses are electric running off overhead wires. But what do we do about outlying areas. The cost of building the kind of network which has grown in Vancouver is prohibitive. We are laying miles and miles of "Skytrain" which sometimes is a subway, but this city needs goods, food, furniture, clothing, cars, etc. and they have to come in by truck. Same as any city. If we really want to cut emissions its time to stop obsessing over the internal combustion engine, but turn to trucks, planes, ships and especially luxury liners.

All the ecos only seem to want to attack the car, but one luxury liner idling in port for 24 hours is equal to something like 200 cars. It is very popular, in some areas, to attack at the gas pump, but we need to hit airline tickets, luxury liners and drive up the cost of EVERYTHING by taxing the **** out of those filthy trucks.